When a "Christian band" says they're not a Christian band...

Pethead wrote:Believer is the oddest one to me because of their apparent revisionism. At least Ian Arkley (sp?) says, “I used to believe that, but I don’t anymore.” He doesn’t deny his history. I respect that more.

Yeah, major bummer. But it's kinda hard to revise the "Christian" label if you are called Believer, isn't it...

Dustofyears wrote:

Constantine wrote:Whenever a band no longer wishes to be associated with their former professions of faith (like Believer, Seventh Angel, etc.) I am always curious to know more about what changed.  Was it life experiences that crumbled their faith?   Were they not really believers to begin with?  Is it the economics of the music industry?  

I wish we could hear explanations.  I'm just curious to know their thought processes.

Question everything. The day one stops questioning is the day one stops thinking and starts having a conformation bias waste basket to throw everything into that doesn't conform or confirm to ones solidified mindset, therefore intellectual dishonesty is a default. Your curiosity is a good thing and your question IS interesting.

This applies to everything in life.

First time I've found something to agree with you on. 

Iron sharpens Iron. My Faith must stand up to scrutiny. It should. I admit sometimes I don't like thinking about confusing or mysterious things about God/The Bible/The Creation because I'm afraid of where that might lead. But then I realize that if my faith can't hold up to those things then it's a house of cards.

seth wrote:Although I have to say, if anyone “leaves the faith” because of the economics of the music industry, then it’s pretty safe to say they were just using Christianity as a marketing tool and didn’t have faith to begin with.

Probably find there is more reasons than one. There usually is, especially when someone is in the spotlight and being judged for their every move, which Christians in bands (especially rock/metal) always are under the spy glass— even more so, probably, than the regular Joes seated in the pews of  church (ya'll know what I'm talking 'bout) magnify that head trip and you get what "some" Christian metal musicians probably go through. That's why it is an interesting question to begin with.

Pethead wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:I don't respect a single bit of it and never will.

I think we’re using a different meaning of respect. I can respect honesty even if the person is wrongheaded and lost.

I respect honesty.

scottmitchell74 wrote:

Dustofyears wrote:

Constantine wrote:Whenever a band no longer wishes to be associated with their former professions of faith (like Believer, Seventh Angel, etc.) I am always curious to know more about what changed.  Was it life experiences that crumbled their faith?   Were they not really believers to begin with?  Is it the economics of the music industry?  

I wish we could hear explanations.  I'm just curious to know their thought processes.

Question everything. The day one stops questioning is the day one stops thinking and starts having a conformation bias waste basket to throw everything into that doesn't conform or confirm to ones solidified mindset, therefore intellectual dishonesty is a default. Your curiosity is a good thing and your question IS interesting.

This applies to everything in life.

First time I've found something to agree with you on. 

Iron sharpens Iron. My Faith must stand up to scrutiny. It should. I admit sometimes I don't like thinking about confusing or mysterious things about God/The Bible/The Creation because I'm afraid of where that might lead. But then I realize that if my faith can't hold up to those things then it's a house of cards.

lol... weeeell— I'm not expecting Christians to agree with a non Christian and I choose to be here no one is forcing me here. Fact I am expecting quite the backlash and even suspicion and a little bit of good old fashion hate when I make statements concerning these kinds of matters. You're all good though, you're a bit like me in the sense you have a gripe and grizzle and opinion then get over it and can still chat. Anyway glad we agree on something

scottmitchell74 wrote:

Dustofyears wrote:

Constantine wrote:Whenever a band no longer wishes to be associated with their former professions of faith (like Believer, Seventh Angel, etc.) I am always curious to know more about what changed.  Was it life experiences that crumbled their faith?   Were they not really believers to begin with?  Is it the economics of the music industry?  

I wish we could hear explanations.  I'm just curious to know their thought processes.

Question everything. The day one stops questioning is the day one stops thinking and starts having a conformation bias waste basket to throw everything into that doesn't conform or confirm to ones solidified mindset, therefore intellectual dishonesty is a default. Your curiosity is a good thing and your question IS interesting.

This applies to everything in life.

First time I've found something to agree with you on. 

Iron sharpens Iron. My Faith must stand up to scrutiny. It should. I admit sometimes I don't like thinking about confusing or mysterious things about God/The Bible/The Creation because I'm afraid of where that might lead. But then I realize that if my faith can't hold up to those things then it's a house of cards.

*First thing regarding faith. You both agree that VR is a good band, for example.

Constantine wrote:Whenever a band no longer wishes to be associated with their former professions of faith (like Believer, Seventh Angel, etc.) I am always curious to know more about what changed.  Was it life experiences that crumbled their faith?   Were they not really believers to begin with?  Is it the economics of the music industry?  

I wish we could hear explanations.  I'm just curious to know their thought processes.

Maybe there's an underlying wish/hope/belief that the existence of God should guarantee everyone a nice life free of trouble and suffering in this life with this body. Suffering in ones own life or seeing suffering in the lives of others seem to be one thing that often first changes a theist into a deist, and eventually into an atheist. When people read a book like Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion it's not really the scientific approaches against God as much as it is Dawkins' philosophical arguments against God that make people question their belief in God the most.

People also seem to think too much both of themselves and others. When they experience bad things happen to themselves when they believe they are good because they are believers, or when they see someone they know and who they think is a "good person" experience bad things, they might start to question God's existence. And when they see a religious person commit a crime or directly be the reason for their or their friend's suffering, then that might make person a deist (who still believes God exists but that he doesn't have any interest in us) or an atheist.

For me the "problem of evil" has never been a good argument against the existence of God. When you understand that you, your friend, your parents, your priest and everyone else comes from the same mould, it shouldn't be a surprise at all that even in a world created by a perfectly good God suffering still exists. We will be disappointed with our parents, our friends, our priests and ourselves. And we will see our parents, our friends, our priests and ourselves experience suffering in one form or another. None of that has any effect in the possibility of the existence of God. I think some of the reasons Gary Lenaire left from the faith was because of things like that, but he is also an example that one can come back to God even after 20 years of thinking like that.

I’m bummed about Ian Arkley losing his faith. His lyrics and music were powerful and emotive. 

I hope God brings him back!

I’m not sure what the Believer guys believe these days… I’m not completely convinced they have totally abandoned their faith. 

Roger Martinez is just plain angry. The guy is completely consumed by hate.

Agreed about Roger. I’m not saying he had no reason to be angry—I don’t know the whole situation. But he comes across as just petulant.

I'm going to start a Christian band called Unbeliever.

Pethead wrote:Agreed about Roger. I’m not saying he had no reason to be angry—I don’t know the whole situation. But he comes across as just petulant.

He did have a reason, but it’s been such a long time… 

His failed marriage, his resentment towards his former bandmates leaving the band, and his claim that he never experienced God healing the sick. 

He’s made it his life’s mission to undo his teaching tapes. He fails to realize that most of his listeners from those days have probably already made up their mind about God. There’s no legion of young impressionable metalheads listening to Vengeance Rising. To the world, they were an obscure Christian metal band. Heck, some kids today are barely aware of Megadeth or Anthrax.

Airola wrote:

Constantine wrote:Whenever a band no longer wishes to be associated with their former professions of faith (like Believer, Seventh Angel, etc.) I am always curious to know more about what changed.  Was it life experiences that crumbled their faith?   Were they not really believers to begin with?  Is it the economics of the music industry?  

I wish we could hear explanations.  I'm just curious to know their thought processes.

Maybe there's an underlying wish/hope/belief that the existence of God should guarantee everyone a nice life free of trouble and suffering in this life with this body. Suffering in ones own life or seeing suffering in the lives of others seem to be one thing that often first changes a theist into a deist, and eventually into an atheist. When people read a book like Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion it's not really the scientific approaches against God as much as it is Dawkins' philosophical arguments against God that make people question their belief in God the most.

People also seem to think too much both of themselves and others. When they experience bad things happen to themselves when they believe they are good because they are believers, or when they see someone they know and who they think is a "good person" experience bad things, they might start to question God's existence. And when they see a religious person commit a crime or directly be the reason for their or their friend's suffering, then that might make person a deist (who still believes God exists but that he doesn't have any interest in us) or an atheist.

For me the "problem of evil" has never been a good argument against the existence of God. When you understand that you, your friend, your parents, your priest and everyone else comes from the same mould, it shouldn't be a surprise at all that even in a world created by a perfectly good God suffering still exists. We will be disappointed with our parents, our friends, our priests and ourselves. And we will see our parents, our friends, our priests and ourselves experience suffering in one for or another. None of that has any effect in the possibility of the existence of God. I think some of the reasons Gary Lenaire left from the faith was because of things like that, but he is also an example that one can come back to God even after 20 years of thinking like that.

Completely agree about the problem of evil argument, to me it’s always come off as a petulant child’s argument, “If God doesn’t run the world the way I think He should, then I’ll just say he doesn’t exist, I guess that’ll show him!”
Also, it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what good and evil truly are

I think we need to give proper weight to the problem of evil. We should feel the weight of suffering. After all, the Bible wrestles with the issue, most acutely in the book of Job. And our Lord himself was “a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief,,” who wept at the tomb of a friend. It’s not that there aren’t answers, but sometimes we don’t know those beyond a very big picture. We weep with those who weep.

The problem for the atheist is applying objective standards of good and evil when they have no grounds for doing so. It’s an epistemological problem—how can an atheist rationally define good and evil, and what does it matter?

I meant the problem of evil as an argument against God’s existence. Yes, evil is certainly a real problem, but using its existence to argue against God’s existence is really not rational

Agreed.

TZ75 wrote:

Pethead wrote:Agreed about Roger. I’m not saying he had no reason to be angry—I don’t know the whole situation. But he comes across as just petulant.

He did have a reason, but it’s been such a long time… 

His failed marriage, his resentment towards his former bandmates leaving the band, and his claim that he never experienced God healing the sick. 

He’s made it his life’s mission to undo his teaching tapes. He fails to realize that most of his listeners from those days have probably already made up their mind about God. There’s no legion of young impressionable metalheads listening to Vengeance Rising. To the world, they were an obscure Christian metal band. Heck, some kids today are barely aware of Megadeth or Anthrax.

It's true. Roger has no fan base and anyone who cares about what he does outside of the Christian realm, and now that fan base has been lost to him. It wouldn't surprise me if some X- metal-Christians come back and start Christian bands again because they have nowhere else to go.  Not Roger though.

It's also kinda sad that now one really knows who vengeance rising is except for probably everyone here and possibly a few more old heads scattered abroad. It's like that brand of metal (christian metal) was made for a certain time period and for a certain generation of people growing up. Meanwhile less deserving bands have a legacy that prevails and lives on. Sucks.

Interesting post !!!

Personally, I love Circle Of Dust!  Back in the 1990's I was so impressed when I discovered their first album, more that I used to like bands like KMFDM, NitzerEbb, Skinny Puppy, Nine Inch Nails, etc.  And for me, Circle was going to be the best, and yes.. was with Brainchild.  However, when I've read the lyrics from the first album, I was sure that they were Christians, but when I saw the ones from Brainchild, I had some doubts, even questioning if they were Christian since the beginning... and I dared myself to say that for sure they never been Christian. And now, with that video, all makes sense. 

About Roger Martinez, I have to say personally that he NEVER been a Christian, since I have my points of view according the Bible that the chosen one cannot get away since the God's promise is to keep them forever in His Mercy, so what happened with Martinez, just shows that he never experienced the Grace of God by now.  And more that he renounced the faith more by anger than any thing else. 

My question: what about KEKAL?  funny thing to tell that when I discovered them back in late 1990's with their album "Beyond the Glimpse..", and even they repeated the Jesus name so many times, I had doubts if they were really Christians... I just considered that they may be just spiritual experimenters.
I told my friends about that and they disagreed with me...
I still like Kekal and just weeks ago I ordered two cassettes from a European store, and was so funny to see that they labeled Kekal as "Pagan Black Metal".

What do you thinks, guys?

man I hate it when Christians say if you leave Christianity you were never really a Christian. It's such a weak argument that is really saying, "it makes me fell more comfortable to say you weren't really a christian and didn't really know God". It really is BS.

I’m not saying it’s never used as an argument to dismiss someone. I know that it is. But it’s also simply a specific theological position.

I seem to remember another thread which said Kekal was into gnosticism, which appropriates ideas from Christianity but is in no way Christian

seth wrote:I seem to remember another thread which said Kekal was into gnosticism, which appropriates ideas from Christianity but is in no way Christian

I remember that, as well. I think CrimsonWarrior mentioned it.

seth wrote:I seem to remember another thread which said Kekal was into gnosticism, which appropriates ideas from Christianity but is in no way Christian

So that makes sense.

That's ok if we could discern what bands like Kekal may tell in their songs, as long as they won't offend Christianity in any way.   I still like Kekal because of their crazy way to play their music. If you guys knows what I meant.. if not, just go to their Bandcamp acc and check their latest albums... they are so amazing.

Dustofyears wrote:man I hate it when Christians say if you leave Christianity you were never really a Christian. It's such a weak argument that is really saying, "it makes me fell more comfortable to say you weren't really a christian and didn't really know God". It really is BS.

Calvinists do this all the time, they have to so they can hold up their doctrines. It also helps them to feel impervious to such a fall.

seth wrote:I seem to remember another thread which said Kekal was into gnosticism, which appropriates ideas from Christianity but is in no way Christian

Not surprising, check out their Facebook page, Jeff has some rather bizarre beliefs that he shares from time to time. I love their early work, but not much after "Habit of Fire."

Pro-Zak wrote:

Dustofyears wrote:man I hate it when Christians say if you leave Christianity you were never really a Christian. It's such a weak argument that is really saying, "it makes me fell more comfortable to say you weren't really a christian and didn't really know God". It really is BS.

Calvinists do this all the time, they have to so they can hold up their doctrines. It also helps them to feel impervious to such a fall.

No, it's Biblical. If you're in the Father's hands, nothing can snatch you out.

I John 2 :19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Black Rider wrote:

Pro-Zak wrote:

Dustofyears wrote:man I hate it when Christians say if you leave Christianity you were never really a Christian. It's such a weak argument that is really saying, "it makes me fell more comfortable to say you weren't really a christian and didn't really know God". It really is BS.

Calvinists do this all the time, they have to so they can hold up their doctrines. It also helps them to feel impervious to such a fall.

No, it's Biblical. If you're in the Father's hands, nothing can snatch you out.

So you are telling me I was not a real christian to begin with essentially... therefore you are telling me my own experience...