When a "Christian band" says they're not a Christian band...

Ah, I haven't seen a BFB in a long time.  How perfect for this day when I'm already feeling quite nostalgic (been listening to 80s new wave stuff all morning).

This is why I HATE the idea of calling stuff "Christian".  I get that it makes it easier to talk about it and for those of us who listen to it to separate it out from other stuff, but it is just such a mess.  Once we call it Christian, then we have to be able to explain why it is Christian.  Is it because 
...the person who made it is a Christian?
...it expresses a "Christian worldview"?
...it rates highly enough in JPM?
...we can buy it from Lifeway or Family Christian Stores or some online retailer that has "Christian" in its name?
...it is on a record label with other artists that fit one of those?
...of some combination of these?

Then we run into the fact that some people are going to answer that question differently than we do, and sometimes those people who answer differently are the very people who are making the music.  And then what happens when we call something Christian, but the person who made it doesn't?  Well, generally speaking, those artists get accused of "selling out," putting the praise of men above the praise of God, denying Christ before men, and all manner of condemnation.  Now maybe that's justifiable if an artist goes in a totally different lyrical direction (I'm not convinced it is), but they keep doing the same thing they have been doing, as in the case of Stryper, ya know...

I know I'm different from a lot of y'all, but I don't get caught up in whether or not an artist is considered a "Christian" artist.  God's Spirit speaks Truth to me through a lot of different means and media.  I am selective about what I listen to and what I listen to around other people (out of respect for them and their beliefs), but the bottom line is I believe the idea of "Christian" media is a marketing tool used to indicate that it should be found acceptable to a particular demographic.  So if Stryper doesn't consider itself to be a Christian band, I'm ok with that.  I understand their reasoning and I'm ok with that.  If Klayton doesn't consider CoD a Christian band, I'm ok with that too.

Side note on lyrical directions--I appreciate when artists do like Thomas has done and created separate projects under different names for different lyrical directions.  I guess that's what Rex Scott has done with X-Sinner/GX Project and Ted Kirkpatrick has done with Tourniquet/Tourniquet Ark.  I don't know enough about Klayton's different projects to know if that is what he did with CoD/Celldweller.

eatbugs wrote:I think you're right to have a problem with this music being listed on a Christian Black Metal Facebook page but don't have a problem with someone like me sometimes taking the easy way out.  Sometimes it's just easier to say "Christian" than explain "Christian friendly."

While I found myself annoyed at the incorrect classification of my music, I didn't ask them to remove the entry.    I might have strong opinions on what my music is, but I'm not going to exercise wrath on someone who thinks differently.

Alan TWWB wrote:People can be Christian (sometimes hard to tell), words can support Biblical teachings (not a requirement), a band can be labeled as a "Christian" band or be on a label with lots of other "Christian" labeled music.
Music, itself, cannot be anything.  It is a medium.  Can a painting be a "Christian" painting?  Perhaps the artist is a Christian but the painting is a landscape.  Does it now become a "Christian" landscape?  [/i]
Music is only vibrations at different frequencies.  It is completely benign by itself.  So we think it is impossible to make "Christian" music.  I hope this makes some sense.

It does make sense, but I don't think anyone believes "Christian" music is sentient.  It doesn't go to church - it doesn't ask for salvation - it doesn't go to heaven when it dies.  Like eatbugs said earlier and messien77 said later, when people refer to Christian music, its some aspect of the music that is acceptable/relateable/associated-with/not-the-opposite-of the Christian faith.

As much as we don't want to admit it, I think that includes both our musics that we don't consider to be Christian... at least to other Christians that know we're Christian. Christian. (LOL - saying any word 42 times in a row just ends up sounding like a weird bird)

Hardcore Christian wrote:To me anyway, if the lyrics portray a salvation/Biblical related theme or message, and the members have some tie to Christ whether professing them on social media, thanking God in the album liner, or being out right signed to "Christian" label

I would say they are a Christian band, at least to me
(There are a few exceptions)

I think the lyrical theme/content plays a bigger part to the music being "Christian" (friendly to Christians) than what the artist believes or doesn't believe.  Not so much for defining the genre, but what's "Christian" on a personal level.  Here, check out these lyrics:

I worship thee, I want to feel your power flow through me
Hear my plead, come and rescue me
Set my spirit free, allow me to see
Grant me the key to eternity

Do I matter? I ask myself
How come no one remembers my name?
I who served the light
Who fell in love with the night

[Chorus:]
Free me from my shackles
Pierce through my soul's disguise
Grace me with the knowledge to see through the lies
Make me one with you now and eternally
Breathe through me for the world to see

Like sunshine after rain
Lift me up, exalt me, release me from pain
Remove damnation's stain
That torments me and marks me as Cain

Seems to say some things that coincide with Christianity. Mentioning worship, asking for freedom from bondage, asking for eternal life, salvation from damnation... there's also no profanity or anything that stands out as a red flag. While I can (and do) take a positive faith-growing influence from those lyrics ON A PERSONAL LEVEL, I can't ignore the fact that as a whole, these lyrics are actually from a satanic black metal band. (a few tracks later, there's the glorification of genocide, suicide by hanging and the devouring of infants)

Andreas89 wrote:
I do have some beef with the comparison between making music and everyday jobs like plumbing. Since my main object of study is copyright law, it's easy for me to see the distinction. Copyright law protects the work, and all over the globe the nature of a work is considered to be the expression of the author's mind. Music qualifies as a work (too simply put, but understandable, it's "art"); repairing pipelines does not. And since "art" is considered to be originating from a person's mind, I'd say that there's a relevant difference between the questions of whether a musician is a christian or a plumber is a christian.

Excellent point!

messiaen77 wrote:
I know I'm different from a lot of y'all, but I don't get caught up in whether or not an artist is considered a "Christian" artist.  God's Spirit speaks Truth to me through a lot of different means and media.  I am selective about what I listen to and what I listen to around other people (out of respect for them and their beliefs), but the bottom line is I believe the idea of "Christian" media is a marketing tool used to indicate that it should be found acceptable to a particular demographic.  So if Stryper doesn't consider itself to be a Christian band, I'm ok with that.  I understand their reasoning and I'm ok with that.  If Klayton doesn't consider CoD a Christian band, I'm ok with that too.

I don't get caught up in what's Christian or not - but if the artist says one thing and the fans say another, I get a bit more caught up in that.  

Like my lyric example I posted, for music that influences me, I'm more into what it says to me...  regardless of where it comes from.  I mean, we don't choose our messengers.  If I say God can't speak to me through ___________, then I'm limiting God.

Though I listen to a lot of secular black metal, in that case I'm not even trying to get something Christian out of it - its just audio horror.  Much like a B zombie flick, there's not much spiritual value, but damn is it fun...

Yes, a music release could still be Christian even if the artist later is ashamed of being so and says it wasn't Christian at all.

I've certainly been ashamed of things I've done/said in the past but that doesn't mean I didn't mean it at the time.

Black Sabbath for many years also said they were not a heavy metal band.

Temple of Blood wrote:Yes, a music release could still be Christian even if the artist later is ashamed of being so and says it wasn't Christian at all.

I've certainly been ashamed of things I've done/said in the past but that doesn't mean I didn't mean it at the time.

Black Sabbath for many years also said they were not a heavy metal band.

Agreed. Balaam prophesied truth when he foresaw the Messiah (Num 24), however throughout Scripture he is consistently referred to as a false prophet. But his unregenerate status or later sins do not change the fact that what he prophesied in Numbers was true. Similarly, what someone says or does later does not change the Christian or non-Christian content of their art.

I think the "Christian" metal band Harmony and the secular progressive metal band Darkwater are good examples. All the members of Harmony are also members of the band Darkwater. Darkwater has never put themselves out there as a "Christian" band, even though all the members are Believers. Why? I look at it this way. I am a Christian and maybe I like to paint. I paint a picture of a bird, but I don't want to be exclusive with my talent, so I market my painting as "The Bird" and advertise on as many websites as possible to sell my art. Since I am a Believer, I could have called it "The Christian Bird", but then my talent would only be noticed by a certain category of potential customers. Now the bird is neither a Christian or an unbeliever, it's simply a bird. Because of "The Bird" someone may ask "who is this painter and what's he or she all about?". Some artists and bands want their music to be just music. No categories or labels. Nothing wrong with that. Maybe the band follows a creed that says "if I am good at one thing then maybe it will make me better at the other". If I am good at what I do and my talents are out there in the world, for "all" to see, then maybe the world will want to know who I am, want to know my story and what I believe in. Not every thing we do as Christians has to be so overt. Having a plan and using some wisdom, we might be able to reach some people who would normally never look our way.

I don't think painting a bird and writing an album's worth of song lyrics are equivalent.

Temple of Blood wrote:I don't think painting a bird and writing an album's worth of song lyrics are equivalent.

I think a painter would strongly disagree.

You can express ideas better in text than other artforms that are ill suited for that task.

That's why the Bible, Magna Carta, etc are WRITTEN abd not explained via paintings, architecture, dancing, etc.

I just found this thread (and this forum) today, as I was researching some bands. I know it's an old thread, but I wanted to share my point of view. Also, I only read the first several posts before deciding to sign up and respond.

When it comes to "Christian bands", my point of view is this; the actual "label" for "Christian Band" should be, and is generally perceived (by most bands), as "Gospel Music". I primarily only listen to what I, personally, consider "Christian Music" (mainly hard rock and metal of all types), but without restricting my personal view to "Gospel Music". However, I break it down as follows:

1. "Gospel Music" - These are bands that are very up front and open about what they stand for, and their lyrical content is very Christ centered. Examples would be Stryper, Disciple, Seventh Day Slumber, Set for the Fall, Day of Fire, Awaken, For Today, and the like. These are the bands you would typically see at a Christian Music Festival, and other Christian venues.

2. "Christians in a Band" - These are bands where some, if not all, of the members are professed Christians, particularly those that are mainly responsible for the lyrical content. These bands may or may not have songs that are overtly Christian in nature, but most, if not all, are positive messages, and most could be interpreted as Christ centered to some degree. Examples include bands like Creed, Memphis May Fire, The Red Jumpsuit Apparatus, 12 Stones, Skillet, Underoath, The Ongoing Concept, etc. These bands may or may not play at a Christian venue, though some absolutely have, as I've seen them at Creation Fest or Ichthus. 

3. Don't have a label for it, but there are bands where at least one member, particularly one that is, at least partially, responsible for lyrical content, is a Christian. Most of the songs are positive, some may or may not have Christian undertones, or possibly even the occasional obvious Christian based message, but mostly just good and wholesome music with positive messages. There may be a cuss word or three on the album, but definitely not a vulgar band. Examples include Shinedown, 3 Doors Down, Silverstein, Attack!Attack!, Beartooth (excluding Caleb's current bout with his faith - hoping he comes back around), Daughtry, U2, Chevelle, Killswitch Engage, etc.

4, Finally, this group is for those artists that were definitely NOT "Christian" through some (or even most) of their career, but at some point, the "face" of the band got saved which has had an effect on the lyrical content; while not "Christian" perse, it is certainly influenced by their new faith. Only two examples I can think of at the moment are Ozzy Osbourne and Megadeth (Dave Mustaine). Now, there are early songs by these two that I will not listen to, because of the lyrical content and messages, but all the newer stuff, and the clean and tame older stuff, I do.

These are just my personal opinions, and how I approach the music I am willing to listen to (on a regular basis).

Stryper trying to say they're not a Christian band lolz. That band is the most wishy washy band that's ever been. Honestly. Ride that sweet wave baby.

Seems to me as long as it is convenient for some of these so called Christian bands then it's all good. Yes I am talking about bands I really like too, Seventh Angel, Believer etc. However, I also understand those people are different people from what they were back in those days when they released their prime albums, have experienced and know more and have deeper understanding that life is not so as black and white as they thought. So I can understand.

Even though King's X were Christians to begin with I understand them saying they never were or wanted to be labelled as a christian band. Even therir lyrics reflect this and weren't in your face about it, and in fact, written in a very poetic and artistic intelligent way. The most in your face they got was FHL album title and the bible verse, which I don't think was their idea in the first place.


Also I remember Klayton saying something about that years ago when in Klank.

putergod wrote:I just found this thread (and this forum) today, as I was researching some bands. I know it's an old thread, but I wanted to share my point of view. Also, I only read the first several posts before deciding to sign up and respond.

When it comes to "Christian bands", my point of view is this; the actual "label" for "Christian Band" should be, and is generally perceived (by most bands), as "Gospel Music". I primarily only listen to what I, personally, consider "Christian Music" (mainly hard rock and metal of all types), but without restricting my personal view to "Gospel Music". However, I break it down as follows:

1. "Gospel Music" - These are bands that are very up front and open about what they stand for, and their lyrical content is very Christ centered. Examples would be Stryper, Disciple, Seventh Day Slumber, Set for the Fall, Day of Fire, Awaken, For Today, and the like. These are the bands you would typically see at a Christian Music Festival, and other Christian venues.

2. "Christians in a Band" - These are bands where some, if not all, of the members are professed Christians, particularly those that are mainly responsible for the lyrical content. These bands may or may not have songs that are overtly Christian in nature, but most, if not all, are positive messages, and most could be interpreted as Christ centered to some degree. Examples include bands like Creed, Memphis May Fire, The Red Jumpsuit Apparatus, 12 Stones, Skillet, Underoath, The Ongoing Concept, etc. These bands may or may not play at a Christian venue, though some absolutely have, as I've seen them at Creation Fest or Ichthus. 

3. Don't have a label for it, but there are bands where at least one member, particularly one that is, at least partially, responsible for lyrical content, is a Christian. Most of the songs are positive, some may or may not have Christian undertones, or possibly even the occasional obvious Christian based message, but mostly just good and wholesome music with positive messages. There may be a cuss word or three on the album, but definitely not a vulgar band. Examples include Shinedown, 3 Doors Down, Silverstein, Attack!Attack!, Beartooth (excluding Caleb's current bout with his faith - hoping he comes back around), Daughtry, U2, Chevelle, Killswitch Engage, etc.

4, Finally, this group is for those artists that were definitely NOT "Christian" through some (or even most) of their career, but at some point, the "face" of the band got saved which has had an effect on the lyrical content; while not "Christian" perse, it is certainly influenced by their new faith. Only two examples I can think of at the moment are Ozzy Osbourne and Megadeth (Dave Mustaine). Now, there are early songs by these two that I will not listen to, because of the lyrical content and messages, but all the newer stuff, and the clean and tame older stuff, I do.

These are just my personal opinions, and how I approach the music I am willing to listen to (on a regular basis).

Regarding the last category of musicians… 

I know Dave Mustaine is a Christian, but who in Ozzy’s band is saved?

TZ75 wrote:

putergod wrote:I just found this thread (and this forum) today, as I was researching some bands. I know it's an old thread, but I wanted to share my point of view. Also, I only read the first several posts before deciding to sign up and respond.

When it comes to "Christian bands", my point of view is this; the actual "label" for "Christian Band" should be, and is generally perceived (by most bands), as "Gospel Music". I primarily only listen to what I, personally, consider "Christian Music" (mainly hard rock and metal of all types), but without restricting my personal view to "Gospel Music". However, I break it down as follows:

1. "Gospel Music" - These are bands that are very up front and open about what they stand for, and their lyrical content is very Christ centered. Examples would be Stryper, Disciple, Seventh Day Slumber, Set for the Fall, Day of Fire, Awaken, For Today, and the like. These are the bands you would typically see at a Christian Music Festival, and other Christian venues.

2. "Christians in a Band" - These are bands where some, if not all, of the members are professed Christians, particularly those that are mainly responsible for the lyrical content. These bands may or may not have songs that are overtly Christian in nature, but most, if not all, are positive messages, and most could be interpreted as Christ centered to some degree. Examples include bands like Creed, Memphis May Fire, The Red Jumpsuit Apparatus, 12 Stones, Skillet, Underoath, The Ongoing Concept, etc. These bands may or may not play at a Christian venue, though some absolutely have, as I've seen them at Creation Fest or Ichthus. 

3. Don't have a label for it, but there are bands where at least one member, particularly one that is, at least partially, responsible for lyrical content, is a Christian. Most of the songs are positive, some may or may not have Christian undertones, or possibly even the occasional obvious Christian based message, but mostly just good and wholesome music with positive messages. There may be a cuss word or three on the album, but definitely not a vulgar band. Examples include Shinedown, 3 Doors Down, Silverstein, Attack!Attack!, Beartooth (excluding Caleb's current bout with his faith - hoping he comes back around), Daughtry, U2, Chevelle, Killswitch Engage, etc.

4, Finally, this group is for those artists that were definitely NOT "Christian" through some (or even most) of their career, but at some point, the "face" of the band got saved which has had an effect on the lyrical content; while not "Christian" perse, it is certainly influenced by their new faith. Only two examples I can think of at the moment are Ozzy Osbourne and Megadeth (Dave Mustaine). Now, there are early songs by these two that I will not listen to, because of the lyrical content and messages, but all the newer stuff, and the clean and tame older stuff, I do.

These are just my personal opinions, and how I approach the music I am willing to listen to (on a regular basis).

Regarding the last category of musicians… 

I know Dave Mustaine is a Christian, but who in Ozzy’s band is saved?

If he meant Sabbath, I would think he meant Geezer, but he seems to be referencing Ozzy's self-titles band, so idk.

When I saw the title Switchfoot immediately came to mind. Love their stuff, especially the Nothing Is Sound album.

StevenCressler wrote:

TZ75 wrote:

putergod wrote:I just found this thread (and this forum) today, as I was researching some bands. I know it's an old thread, but I wanted to share my point of view. Also, I only read the first several posts before deciding to sign up and respond.

When it comes to "Christian bands", my point of view is this; the actual "label" for "Christian Band" should be, and is generally perceived (by most bands), as "Gospel Music". I primarily only listen to what I, personally, consider "Christian Music" (mainly hard rock and metal of all types), but without restricting my personal view to "Gospel Music". However, I break it down as follows:

1. "Gospel Music" - These are bands that are very up front and open about what they stand for, and their lyrical content is very Christ centered. Examples would be Stryper, Disciple, Seventh Day Slumber, Set for the Fall, Day of Fire, Awaken, For Today, and the like. These are the bands you would typically see at a Christian Music Festival, and other Christian venues.

2. "Christians in a Band" - These are bands where some, if not all, of the members are professed Christians, particularly those that are mainly responsible for the lyrical content. These bands may or may not have songs that are overtly Christian in nature, but most, if not all, are positive messages, and most could be interpreted as Christ centered to some degree. Examples include bands like Creed, Memphis May Fire, The Red Jumpsuit Apparatus, 12 Stones, Skillet, Underoath, The Ongoing Concept, etc. These bands may or may not play at a Christian venue, though some absolutely have, as I've seen them at Creation Fest or Ichthus. 

3. Don't have a label for it, but there are bands where at least one member, particularly one that is, at least partially, responsible for lyrical content, is a Christian. Most of the songs are positive, some may or may not have Christian undertones, or possibly even the occasional obvious Christian based message, but mostly just good and wholesome music with positive messages. There may be a cuss word or three on the album, but definitely not a vulgar band. Examples include Shinedown, 3 Doors Down, Silverstein, Attack!Attack!, Beartooth (excluding Caleb's current bout with his faith - hoping he comes back around), Daughtry, U2, Chevelle, Killswitch Engage, etc.

4, Finally, this group is for those artists that were definitely NOT "Christian" through some (or even most) of their career, but at some point, the "face" of the band got saved which has had an effect on the lyrical content; while not "Christian" perse, it is certainly influenced by their new faith. Only two examples I can think of at the moment are Ozzy Osbourne and Megadeth (Dave Mustaine). Now, there are early songs by these two that I will not listen to, because of the lyrical content and messages, but all the newer stuff, and the clean and tame older stuff, I do.

These are just my personal opinions, and how I approach the music I am willing to listen to (on a regular basis).

Regarding the last category of musicians… 

I know Dave Mustaine is a Christian, but who in Ozzy’s band is saved?

If he meant Sabbath, I would think he meant Geezer, but he seems to be referencing Ozzy's self-titles band, so idk.

Not sure if Ozzy is a Christian, I saw an interview where he said he was, but that was long ago. Geezer was in Ozzy's band for a time BTW.

Whenever a band no longer wishes to be associated with their former professions of faith (like Believer, Seventh Angel, etc.) I am always curious to know more about what changed.  Was it life experiences that crumbled their faith?   Were they not really believers to begin with?  Is it the economics of the music industry?  

I wish we could hear explanations.  I'm just curious to know their thought processes.

Since we know that Jesus doesn't change, I don't find their reasoning (whatever it might be) to be interesting or worth consideration.

Constantine wrote:Whenever a band no longer wishes to be associated with their former professions of faith (like Believer, Seventh Angel, etc.) I am always curious to know more about what changed.  Was it life experiences that crumbled their faith?   Were they not really believers to begin with?  Is it the economics of the music industry?  

I wish we could hear explanations.  I'm just curious to know their thought processes.

Question everything. The day one stops questioning is the day one stops thinking and starts having a conformation bias waste basket to throw everything into that doesn't conform or confirm to ones solidified mindset, therefore intellectual dishonesty is a default. Your curiosity is a good thing and your question IS interesting.

This applies to everything in life.

Even though their reasoning is always faulty, I still like to hear people’s reasoning as to why they leave the faith. Understanding this gives us more knowledge on how to defend the faith

Although I have to say, if anyone “leaves the faith” because of the economics of the music industry, then it’s pretty safe to say they were just using Christianity as a marketing tool and didn’t have faith to begin with.

Dustofyears wrote:

Constantine wrote:Whenever a band no longer wishes to be associated with their former professions of faith (like Believer, Seventh Angel, etc.) I am always curious to know more about what changed.  Was it life experiences that crumbled their faith?   Were they not really believers to begin with?  Is it the economics of the music industry?  

I wish we could hear explanations.  I'm just curious to know their thought processes.

Question everything. The day one stops questioning is the day one stops thinking and starts having a conformation bias waste basket to throw everything into that doesn't conform or confirm to ones solidified mindset, therefore intellectual dishonesty is a default. Your curiosity is a good thing and your question IS interesting.

This applies to everything in life.

Actually agree. And I think supposed Christians who were brought up to never ask questions or examine why they believe what they believe are more likely to apostasize. Faith in God should not be purely blind faith.

Believer is the oddest one to me because of their apparent revisionism. At least Ian Arkley (sp?) says, “I used to believe that, but I don’t anymore.” He doesn’t deny his history. I respect that more.

I don't respect a single bit of it and never will.

Temple of Blood wrote:I don't respect a single bit of it and never will.

Before I agree/disagree: can you expand a bit. What do you mean?

Temple of Blood wrote:I don't respect a single bit of it and never will.

I think we’re using a different meaning of respect. I can respect honesty even if the person is wrongheaded and lost.