Roger Martinez Letter on YouTube (interesting!)

jaydeecrawson wrote:

TZ75 wrote:

jaydeecrawson wrote:

Raegoul wrote:This whole „I am now into sex and drugs“ rant and the inflationary swearing (I get some people swear all the time when they talk but why write it down) came across staged/faked and if I understand him correctly, he adopted this behaviour to deter people from buying VR stuff and attending VR gigs? If that is so, the same could be true for the  whole satanism shtick that followed. However that would not make a lot of sense if he, as I gather, kept the rights to the VR name and back  catalogue. Hence, putting people off would result in less royalties for himself? Just trying to make a bit of sense here but maybe there isn‘t.

P.S. I am rocking my new (used) RUTE shirt as I type this. 

If he was smart, he could probably make some money off the brand and logo since he still owns it I assume... there is still a lot of chatter about this story and he probably could market that somehow with the right social media, etc. but he's so unstable.....

He emailed me a few years back and threatened me.... went total Glen Benton style on me and scared my wife half to death too. had to block him.

So he threatened to find you and show up at your doorstep (or something like that)??

no, he asked me to be his "side kick" and start editing the VR wiki online and running his social media. He pretty much "recruited" me and started giving me orders like a drill sergeant, threatening me and blowing my phone up with profanity.... (my work phone too). So, I politely suggested that he would be better qualified and informed to do it since he was actually the singer of the band and I was like 15 when they broke up! 

Then, he had a temper tantrum... sending me super long texts, voicemails... screaming, threatening, using profanity, cursing, etc.

So, I had to block him. Scared my ex wife half to death too since we had planned to fly out there and meet him in LA... 

The dude literally went bananas... bullying, cussing, threatening, name calling, etc.

But, at first he was cool and polite... lot's of fun... but like the countless times I've tried to have a normal, mature conversation with him, it devolves into him asking for money, cussing, bullying, spamming me, etc. it's happened about half a dozen times with him over the last 20 years or so.

He won't even respond to a single question about VR. NOTHING... just spins it around to demand money, giving orders, etc

totally irrational.

And he claims to be happy (when he occasionally pops up from obscurity). The guy is obviously miserable. And his pride won’t let him admit it. He probably believes God wouldn’t take him back after all the hatred and blasphemy. 

He should look to Gary Lenaire as proof that God gives us many chances to repent and come home! Satan has a hold on him for sure… very sad.

it is sad... pitiful. but I still love him and all the members of VR for the huge impact they had on my life

and yes.... God would definitely "take him back".... I'm living proof of that very thing too

it's unfortunate that he was never exposed to other, more nuanced theological viewpoints (besides the Pentecostal one I guess he was raised with - note the references to "Foursquare" in the letter on YouTube).... that could have helped him make sense of what he went through maybe?

not sure though... I wasn't there and the only real people who would know are all the former members of VR, his ex wife and maybe Bob Beeman? I dunno.

it's a shame.

TZ75 wrote:

Dustofyears wrote:

jaydeecrawson wrote:

Dustofyears wrote:

TZ75 wrote:Another gem I found…

I’m sure jaydeecrawson already has this. 

I'm gonna check out the letter soon. Should be interesting. But man, so brain washed, just like I was. When you first come out of that mindset you first go through an angry kind of purging stage where you turn to Satanic stuff or the occult, and inadvertently without realizing it until you look back, you realize it's kind of like cleansing yourself from the brainwashing. Then one starts to also realize Satanism etc, is all a part of the same silly game. It usually takes something pretty big in life to happen to burst the bubble and start asking questions. It's interesting looking back at how it works. Can relate to Roger very much.

Right, let's check out this letter (I remember getting a random message from Roger years back- it was weird, but he must've been going through the  purging and cleansing stage, and you do, do strange stuff!. Not to mention, he seems to go head first into anything he does, a pretty extreme type of personality.

very good points. I also went through a period of intense satanic rebellion... reading "Might is Right", LaVey, Aquino, Crowley, etc... but after years of that, I realized all that resentment and anger was alienating people and turning me into a jerk. Now, I'm back in the Church (capital C), repented and ditched all that occult stuff including some of the bands that I was listening to during that time.

But, you are exactly right. That naive', immature, angry Satanism is just another resentful form of "Christian" Satanism as King Diamond used to say. LoL

I never looked back. Went to my old pastor's wife's funeral some years back and hadn't seen those people (who I loved back then) for years and years. All those same faces from another life time ago. It was like stepping into a time warp, nothing about them had changed and they all said the same things, had that same sickly glazed, almost hypnotized look in their eyes, which I had not noticed when I was a part of it. It creeped me out to think It could be me still stuck there like that. I'm grateful for what happened. And this letter here from Roger seems to be at that point where he is questioning everything he believes in right before he's about to snap, soon to step into the purging stage, shredding his skin from years of mantras and indoctrination. It's a horrible and confusing and angry spot to be in. The swearing in the letter is not fake or put on, its part of cycle, like vomiting your soul out to cleanse it. This is a very interesting part of Christian Metal history. Lucky for those of you who got it if you're a collector of all things Christian rock and metal.

Thanks for sharing it.

So you think all Christians are like those “sickly” people you once knew? To the contrary, I have see many Christians in my life that look so full of joy and set free from the bondage of sin, fear and other pitfalls of the human condition. 

I do know that there are cults that claim to be Christians, but they put their trust in rituals and man made rules that make God just a distant person that is ready to punish at every mistake we make. I can’t see how a person with a personal relationship with Christ could ever be miserable.

No not all. There's still a couple I know who are pretty cool peeps.

jaydeecrawson wrote:it is sad... pitiful. but I still love him and all the members of VR for the huge impact they had on my life

and yes.... God would definitely "take him back".... I'm living proof of that very thing too

it's unfortunate that he was never exposed to other, more nuanced theological viewpoints (besides the Pentecostal one I guess he was raised with - note the references to "Foursquare" in the letter on YouTube).... that could have helped him make sense of what he went through maybe?

not sure though... I wasn't there and the only real people who would know are all the former members of VR, his ex wife and maybe Bob Beeman? I dunno.

it's a shame.

Ah so you knew him on a personal level. Yeah he went off the rails big time there for a while in terms of in life in general. I hope he is happy now anyways in whatever he's doing. Selfishly, a few more albums would've been nice though!

Dustofyears wrote:

TZ75 wrote:

Dustofyears wrote:

jaydeecrawson wrote:

Dustofyears wrote:

TZ75 wrote:Another gem I found…

I’m sure jaydeecrawson already has this. 

I'm gonna check out the letter soon. Should be interesting. But man, so brain washed, just like I was. When you first come out of that mindset you first go through an angry kind of purging stage where you turn to Satanic stuff or the occult, and inadvertently without realizing it until you look back, you realize it's kind of like cleansing yourself from the brainwashing. Then one starts to also realize Satanism etc, is all a part of the same silly game. It usually takes something pretty big in life to happen to burst the bubble and start asking questions. It's interesting looking back at how it works. Can relate to Roger very much.

Right, let's check out this letter (I remember getting a random message from Roger years back- it was weird, but he must've been going through the  purging and cleansing stage, and you do, do strange stuff!. Not to mention, he seems to go head first into anything he does, a pretty extreme type of personality.

very good points. I also went through a period of intense satanic rebellion... reading "Might is Right", LaVey, Aquino, Crowley, etc... but after years of that, I realized all that resentment and anger was alienating people and turning me into a jerk. Now, I'm back in the Church (capital C), repented and ditched all that occult stuff including some of the bands that I was listening to during that time.

But, you are exactly right. That naive', immature, angry Satanism is just another resentful form of "Christian" Satanism as King Diamond used to say. LoL

I never looked back. Went to my old pastor's wife's funeral some years back and hadn't seen those people (who I loved back then) for years and years. All those same faces from another life time ago. It was like stepping into a time warp, nothing about them had changed and they all said the same things, had that same sickly glazed, almost hypnotized look in their eyes, which I had not noticed when I was a part of it. It creeped me out to think It could be me still stuck there like that. I'm grateful for what happened. And this letter here from Roger seems to be at that point where he is questioning everything he believes in right before he's about to snap, soon to step into the purging stage, shredding his skin from years of mantras and indoctrination. It's a horrible and confusing and angry spot to be in. The swearing in the letter is not fake or put on, its part of cycle, like vomiting your soul out to cleanse it. This is a very interesting part of Christian Metal history. Lucky for those of you who got it if you're a collector of all things Christian rock and metal.

Thanks for sharing it.

So you think all Christians are like those “sickly” people you once knew? To the contrary, I have see many Christians in my life that look so full of joy and set free from the bondage of sin, fear and other pitfalls of the human condition. 

I do know that there are cults that claim to be Christians, but they put their trust in rituals and man made rules that make God just a distant person that is ready to punish at every mistake we make. I can’t see how a person with a personal relationship with Christ could ever be miserable.

No not all. There's still a couple I know who are pretty cool peeps.

Thanks for clarifying. LOL

Ironically, the recent Glen Benton interviews have shown him to be a lot less abrasive. I guess he’s mellowed with age and keeping the angry evil guy image is tiresome. When he was young I’m sure he got a kick out of it.

TZ75 wrote:Ironically, the recent Glen Benton interviews have shown him to be a lot less abrasive. I guess he’s mellowed with age and keeping the angry evil guy image is tiresome. When he was young I’m sure he got a kick out of it.

Glen got a kick out of it all right. Can't blame him, especially back then. He found his niche, his place in life and to some degree, Probably believed in his shtick when he was younger with varying amounts of doubt. But a lot of it was tongue in cheek and bit of an entertaining pose.  Bottom line, he's an entertainer. He knows the whole Satan thing is crap, but its business. I've no doubt, christian or not, if you were to say hi to him you'd soon find out he's just a regular guy with a not so regular job.

Also, remember Bob Larson and Glen Benton interviews. Those two are entertainers in the same circles and same world. They both knew what they were doing. It was a business transaction and a bit of a lark, and it worked. But who would you trust more- Bob Larson or Benton. I know who I'd go with. The one who shows his cards.

Dust, why are you here if Christians are all brainwashed dummies? Just to be smug?

Dustofyears wrote:

TZ75 wrote:Ironically, the recent Glen Benton interviews have shown him to be a lot less abrasive. I guess he’s mellowed with age and keeping the angry evil guy image is tiresome. When he was young I’m sure he got a kick out of it.

Glen got a kick out of it all right. Can't blame him, especially back then. He found his niche, his place in life and to some degree, Probably believed in his shtick when he was younger with varying amounts of doubt. But a lot of it was tongue in cheek and bit of an entertaining pose.  Bottom line, he's an entertainer. He knows the whole Satan thing is crap, but its business. I've no doubt, christian or not, if you were to say hi to him you'd soon find out he's just a regular guy with a not so regular job.

Also, remember Bob Larson and Glen Benton interviews. Those two are entertainers in the same circles and same world. They both knew what they were doing. It was a business transaction and a bit of a lark, and it worked. But who would you trust more- Bob Larson or Benton. I know who I'd go with. The one who shows his cards.

I agree that Larson is/was an entertainer.

Black Rider wrote:Dust, why are you here if Christians are all brainwashed dummies? Just to be smug?

Not to derail your question… but I used to ask myself the same thing about jaydeecrawsin. He seemed to be the Devil’s advocate lurking around to bait us with loaded questions or links to questionable videos. 

But I’m pleased to see that he has returned to the faith! I think the creepy people he was attracting in his rebellion opened his eyes. 

Okay, back to your question for Dust!

Just an observation…

You know how Dust described the Christians he knew as sickly and glazed over? I think most people would say that the creepy occult and satanic types that jaydee was attracting are far beyond brainwashed.

I just think saying he'd trust Benton over Larson is weird. Both were charlatans, Benton had a Catholic wedding for crying out loud.

Black Rider wrote:I just think saying he'd trust Benton over Larson is weird. Both were charlatans, Benton had a Catholic wedding for crying out loud.

I guess the way I see it is that Larson tried to fool people that he was a legit man of God. That angers me more than a secular jerkoff like Benton.

I can see that.

I'm surprised Roger hasn't tried to get into motivational speaking since those TED talks are so popular.

TZ75 wrote:Just an observation…

You know how Dust described the Christians he knew as sickly and glazed over? I think most people would say that the creepy occult and satanic types that jaydee was attracting are far beyond brainwashed.

Yeah true. Satanic and occult types live in yet just another echo chamber, another biased confirmation prison cell to lock one's mind in even if or not a person realizes it. In fact, they are really one step away from Christianity and conversion without knowing it. Also, the occult and satanism thing really does live in the same realm, so it all connects to the same big picture. I came to realize that after the anger burned out.

BlackRider- I come here mostly to find out things about bands I still like. If I had some sort of agenda I'd step in the theology thread and be a nuisance like I have seen others do. Where else would I find out about Roger's letter, etc, and my favorite metal album bar none is a christian one. Really is that simple. I'm just spouting because I relate to Roger.

Anyway- do not wish to derail the thread. As you were.

TZ75 wrote:

Black Rider wrote:I just think saying he'd trust Benton over Larson is weird. Both were charlatans, Benton had a Catholic wedding for crying out loud.

I guess the way I see it is that Larson tried to fool people that he was a legit man of God. That angers me more than a secular jerkoff like Benton.

I've met Bob Larson twice. I thought he was super cool. He called me up on stage with him once.... I teased him about hanging out with SLAYER

I also appreciate him giving VR, Tourniquet, and Deliverance a chance... I personally think he's awesome.

Theologically sound? Nope. But I still like him and his videos a lot. He was very nice to me when we met...

Watch this:

https://youtu.be/U99JRDsYGkI

And... just remember about Bob Larsoon: one man's heretic is another man's saint....

TZ75 wrote:

Black Rider wrote:Dust, why are you here if Christians are all brainwashed dummies? Just to be smug?

Not to derail your question… but I used to ask myself the same thing about jaydeecrawsin. He seemed to be the Devil’s advocate lurking around to bait us with loaded questions or links to questionable videos. 

But I’m pleased to see that he has returned to the faith! I think the creepy people he was attracting in his rebellion opened his eyes. 

Okay, back to your question for Dust!

Has nothing to do with the "creepy people I was attracting..." I myself was creepy to a lot of people! 

That only bothered me as far as being stalked and harassed on social media, LinkedIn, etc. And, the comments scared people in my family and made me very nervous, but it didn't have anything to do with me changing my mind about my spiritual life.

It had more to do with me realizing that my attitude and worldview... my anger and resentment... was alienating and hurting people I love... including my Ex Wife, although she herself was into all the occult / left hand path stuff at first too. I emphasize "at first." but that changed over time especially when she became a Jehovah's Witness to get back in her parent's will, legally. (complicated story... too long to explain here)

My sponsor in AA said, "If all that occult stuff and runes can't get you sober, then find something that will!"

So.. I did.... The Eastern Orthodox Church... and ultimately a relationship with God the Holy Trinity!

Also, a few people I trust in my life (who I have known for decades) helped me FINALLY realize how immature and juvenile some of that occult, LaVeyean satanism stuff was... or at least the way I was using it was. it's unattractive and ugly. It encourages resentment, anger, hatred, narcicism, etc. 

not saying everyone who studies runes or the left hand path is resentful or angry, but in my case, I was...

And, whether or not Roger (or me for that matter) realizes it, deep down all that frustration, anger, profanity, cursing, sin and resentment is a desperate cry for help! Spiritual help, legal help, financial help, emotional help, etc....

People like Roger want someone to listen.. someone to say "I'm sorry." They might not admit it or realize it, but I personally think that's what people like him and (me at the time) need... not more sermons. not more superficial, cookie cutter or puritanical evangelical books.... Just someone who will listen and not judge.

A lot of people have been hurt by the "business" and Christian "industry"... which is itself an expression of American consumerism. But, not everyone reacts the way Roger and (me) reacted.

But... it's been decades. Roger needs to grow up and move on... maybe he has by now? who knows?

Bob Larson is a charlatan and has been widely exposed as such. I'm not going to get into it here but I get tired of people dragging Jesus name through the mud.

Black Rider wrote:Bob Larson is a charlatan and has been widely exposed as such. I'm not going to get into it here but I get tired of people dragging Jesus name through the mud.

we've all dragged His name through the mud.... every time we sin and choose selfishness over our neighbor....

But, I know what you mean.

Look, I think a lot of what Bob does is bogus too but he was super cool when we met and I'm glad he helped VR and Christian metal...

You can hear him introduce Vengeance live on the bonus disk of "Released Upon the Earth" from Denver.

I have the audio myself and it's pretty cool

jaydeecrawson wrote:

TZ75 wrote:

Black Rider wrote:I just think saying he'd trust Benton over Larson is weird. Both were charlatans, Benton had a Catholic wedding for crying out loud.

I guess the way I see it is that Larson tried to fool people that he was a legit man of God. That angers me more than a secular jerkoff like Benton.

I've met Bob Larson twice. I thought he was super cool. He called me up on stage with him once.... I teased him about hanging out with SLAYER

I also appreciate him giving VR, Tourniquet, and Deliverance a chance... I personally think he's awesome.

Theologically sound? Nope. But I still like him and his videos a lot. He was very nice to me when we met...

Watch this:

https://youtu.be/U99JRDsYGkI

And... just remember about Bob Larsoon: one man's heretic is another man's saint....

Well, I recognize him as an entertainer. And yes, he did help promote some Christian metal back in the day. 

But that doesn’t dismiss his charlatan deeds. Which are quite serious. Messing with God is not a game. It’s the most dangerous thing a person can do. He used God as a tool for money making schemes. I think of him as the Jerry Springer of the “satanic panic” era.

This is also a very interesting Roger M Interview Done just minutes before VR hit the stage for Cornerstone 1988 ... He was on Fire for Jesus that's for sure ....Pray he comes back to the LORD someday ...........He Nows the truth deep down ......

Jetway777 wrote:This is also a very interesting Roger M Interview Done just minutes before VR hit the stage for Cornerstone 1988 ... He was on Fire for Jesus that's for sure ....Pray he comes back to the LORD someday ...........He Nows the truth deep down ......

man... after listening to that interview, I wouldn't wanna be a Christian either if everything he said was true.

that interview is meat and potatoes Protestant evangelicalism and apologetics... I sense some dispensationalism in there too

thank the Lord there are other interpretations and more nuanced, mature / Patristic ways of doing Theology...

I had the Vengeance Human Sacrifice cassette back in 1990. I have Once Dead Roxx reissue on order. I have the 3 Die Happy albums and Roxx reissued the first 2. It's interesting how a member of Badlands and Vengeance Rising along with Robin Basauri joined their talents with Die Happy and eventually some went on to Red Sea and Reign of Glory.  

Some mentioned brainwash. Was Sanctuary known to brainwash people or use heretical teachings? I know Paul called out false teachers and named them. I'm the type of person where unless it's obvious, I reserve judgement unless I do the research and have the proof.

Another thing for VR fans - what goes through your minds then you listen to the old albums knowing that Roger is no longer a Christ follower and is trying to undo his past accomplishments for the Kingdom which we all know it's impossible? God can use anyone - Christian or not, a rock, an animal, etc to relay his message.