Trump vs Carson on religion ?

ThomasEversole wrote:The people at TBN are pagans?
You lost me David.

I don't watch TBN, though I'm familiar with what it is...  and I don't see any evidence that they are pagans?  I'm not sure if you intended to use that term in a derogatory manner, or if there's something I'm not aware of?

The information online definitely does not point to them being pagan.

Either way, I feel like I'm trying to convey to you how (for lack of better words) ugly it is to rampantly judge people, and you're trying to convey to me how crooked these people are that you're judging.

I'm not interested in what Trump or Copeland say because I don't listen to them.  I do listen to you, because you're here, and I don't want to see you judge me or anyone else here the same way you judge them.

....after all, the judging premise works just like the gossip one.  "If people will gossip to you, they'll gossip about you"

Yes, but there you are since you aren't too familiar with them I see why my comments are confusing. But for the sake of argument, even if Trump were praying with true Christians, I would still say he's playing the religion card politics, and still might evoke a **gag** in me.

About TBN, take some time and study about them and you'll see how they are very pagan with a Christian veneer.


Maybe we'll have to disagree about judging other people, but I just don't want to pretend that the emperor is wearing clothes when he clearly isn't. You know?

I'm sure those guys have plenty of flaws, just like myself.  I'm certainly not putting them on a pedestal - I know very little about them.  (I've never been one to get spiritual guidance from the media - I prefer a local spiritual sponsor.)

That being said, I'm not a flaw hunter.  (not saying you are either David)
To a fault (well, some may call it a fault), I'm perhaps a flaw "ignorer". (LOL my browser says that's not a word)

I'm think of something from Fred Rogers (yes, Mr. Roger's Neighborhood Fred Rogers) said in his ministry back in the day.  He shared a lesson that will forever stay with me.

He talked about sitting in a sermon, almost on the verge of rolling his eyes at the preacher he was listening to in a congregation because he knew this preacher did A, B and C gagworthy things in his personal life, had D, E and F doctrine flaws...

...until he looked over and saw a woman moved to tears over the sermon.  Obviously that woman was getting spiritually fed, while Pastor Rogers was busy taking inventory - through the same message both were in the presence of.  At its core, its pessimism vs. optimism.

I see a video of a man in a position of power getting prayed for in a Christian context.  You see a crock putting on a show with a bunch of pagans.

"Two men look through prison bars.  One sees mud, the other sees stars."

I'd much rather take what I need and leave the rest than waste my resources on shortcomings and character defects, which aren't even any of my business.

ThomasEversole wrote:I'm sure those guys have plenty of flaws, just like myself.  I'm certainly not putting them on a pedestal - I know very little about them.  (I've never been one to get spiritual guidance from the media - I prefer a local spiritual sponsor.)

That being said, I'm not a flaw hunter.  (not saying you are either David)
To a fault (well, some may call it a fault), I'm perhaps a flaw "ignorer". (LOL my browser says that's not a word)

I'm think of something from Fred Rogers (yes, Mr. Roger's Neighborhood Fred Rogers) said in his ministry back in the day.  He shared a lesson that will forever stay with me.

He talked about sitting in a sermon, almost on the verge of rolling his eyes at the preacher he was listening to in a congregation because he knew this preacher did A, B and C gagworthy things in his personal life, had D, E and F doctrine flaws...

...until he looked over and saw a woman moved to tears over the sermon.  Obviously that woman was getting spiritually fed, while Pastor Rogers was busy taking inventory - through the same message both were in the presence of.  At its core, its pessimism vs. optimism.

I see a video of a man in a position of power getting prayed for in a Christian context.  You see a crock putting on a show with a bunch of pagans.

"Two men look through prison bars.  One sees mud, the other sees stars."

I'd much rather take what I need and leave the rest than waste my resources on shortcomings and character defects, which aren't even any of my business.

I'm not one to nitpick others flaws and sins, but I do draw the line at the gospel. These guys do great damage to the gospel. They malign it as bad as the Westboro cult does but in a very different way.

I think there is a time and place for the lesson of Rogers that you stated, but really, we shouldn't strive to allow the ends to justify the means. So, when we know better, we can't, ought not, settle for less. We see men intending evil and God making that evil come out good, but the good ends doesn't exonerate those who practiced the evil.

Back to the Trump. You don't know anything about TBN, so you don't see anything odd in the video. I agree, on the surface it looks normal. Trump comes across as a good Christian. He's 'Presbyterian', not a crazy 7th day Adventist like his opponent. Look, he's seeking God's favor having pastors pray over him. Wow, he looks like a stand up Christian guy to me.

Yet, Thomas, if you took some time to learn about what's going on in the world around you, if you knew what TBN is really about, you'd know better about the video and might even have the same reaction I did to seeing it. I'm not faulting you for not knowing better. It's a big world and there's too much to learn sometimes. Now, with the conversation of this thread, it's different. You have been exposed to TBN. You are on the hook to verify or disqualify what I'm saying about TBN.

So, consider this. You said I ought to be ashamed of myself for making a judgment while you really didn't understand what I was making a judgment about. It seems like you kind of rushed to judgment about me, not that I take any major offense at it. As long as the dialog is civil, I rather have someone call me out if they think I'm off than bite their tongue.

In this case, what Mr. Trump is doing is my businesses, it's all of our(we who are voting) business as we need to evaluate him if we think he is the right man for the job or not.


PS, if you want to discuss TBN, we should continue via PM.

But I saw Stryper on TBN!!! Why are you saying they are Pagan? Seriously. That is confusing dude.

Michael Sweet regularly goes on TBN! If they were so bad, why would he venture there?


Judging others like that isn't good dude. It makes you look like the Pagan. Just sayin'


I don't trust Trump either ... don't get me wrong. I think he's trying to trick the Christians in a big way. But to say that these ministers of the Gospel are all wrong ... and you are right??? Seems arrogant to me.

My only real thought on this whole business is that Trump is - and has always been - a pandering snake oil salesman.  It's how he made his name and his fortune, and we have absolutely ZERO reason to believe otherwise simply because he's now decided he wishes to add "political clout" to his "fame" and his "fortune".

RavenWolf wrote:But I saw Stryper on TBN!!! Why are you saying they are Pagan? Seriously. That is confusing dude.

Michael Sweet regularly goes on TBN! If they were so bad, why would he venture there?


Judging others like that isn't good dude. It makes you look like the Pagan. Just sayin'


I don't trust Trump either ... don't get me wrong. I think he's trying to trick the Christians in a big way. But to say that these ministers of the Gospel are all wrong ... and you are right??? Seems arrogant to me.

This isn't the place to discuss the reasons for what I said, but if you would like to understand what I mean before judging me, send me a PM. I'll leave you with this. Take some time to understand what paganism entails before you call someone pagan. As you have confessed that you don't understand what I'm saying or how I'm linking things. Do your homework first, understand what I'm saying and then if you disagree, let me know why.

Why does Michael Sweet play in secular bars?

Peace

exo wrote:My only real thought on this whole business is that Trump is - and has always been - a pandering snake oil salesman.  It's how he made his name and his fortune, and we have absolutely ZERO reason to believe otherwise simply because he's now decided he wishes to add "political clout" to his "fame" and his "fortune".

I'm kind of one the wall with that. I do think that there is some sincerity in him about his goals, but not a lot.

d@v!d wrote:This isn't the place to discuss the reasons for what I said, but if you would like to understand what I mean before judging me, send me a PM.

If there's some inherent mass misleading or "truth danger" to Christianity involved with TBN, I think you should publicly present the facts so none of us get lead astray. No one debates cold hard facts. Everyone debates opinions.

All I've seen so far is a personal hearsay conclusion and slander about TBN, and dragging this to discuss in an alley 1on1 seems like a "strategy" to plead a case. That's not something that generally happens when making a claim.

Likewise, I'm familiar with Paganism and Pagan behavior. ...masquerading as Christians isn't exactly a common or well known characteristic of Paganism.

Please start a thread and share your sources/research.

ThomasEversole wrote:Likewise, I'm familiar with Paganism and Pagan behavior. ...masquerading as Christians isn't exactly a common or well known characteristic of Paganism.

See that's what I'm saying too. I am VERY familiar with Paganism. As my brother married a true Pagan girl. She worships about 12 different Gods. Osiris, Hekate, Apollo, heck - I am not sure who else!!! Diana is one of them.


Anyway - she is a very nice person and I've met her 'friends' too and they are all very nice. Heck, some of them have great taste in music! But alas - the last thing they would ever do is masquerade as Christian. They are AGAINST Christianity entirely. They know I'm a Christian and hold respect for me as a person and they don't judge me. Which I find more loving and Christ-like than many Christians. Christians who judge others ... well they are the ones who give Christianity such a bad name. Hypocrites. Not to say 'you' are a hypocrite David, as I don't think you are. But I'm just saying ... judging others (including Trump) ... is not a very Godly thing to do.


I know sometimes we do have to judge actions and taste fruit. That is why I say I don't trust Trump nor would I vote for him. But I would never judge the man's heart. What if he just recently started to believe in Christ or something? Even if not ... I try to never judge.

ThomasEversole wrote:

d@v!d wrote:This isn't the place to discuss the reasons for what I said, but if you would like to understand what I mean before judging me, send me a PM.

If there's some inherent mass misleading or "truth danger" to Christianity involved with TBN, I think you should publicly present the facts so none of us get lead astray.  No one debates cold hard facts.  Everyone debates opinions.

All I've seen so far is a personal hearsay conclusion and slander about TBN, and dragging this to discuss in an alley 1on1 seems like a "strategy" to plead a case.  That's not something that generally happens when making a claim.

Likewise, I'm familiar with Paganism and Pagan behavior.  ...masquerading as Christians isn't exactly a common or well known characteristic of Paganism.

Please start a thread and share your sources/research.

Really, you and anyone else reading ought to have enough discernment about what TBN does that I shouldn't have to make a thread to deal with it. Like I already said: "These guys do great damage to the gospel. They malign it as bad as the Westboro cult does but in a very different way." But, since you aren't familiar enough with TBN to know if I'm right or wrong, it's on you to do your own research before you question my assertions. The reason why I've invited you to PM about it is because of the forum rules. I'd rather not have a discussion that dips into theology in public and risk breaking the rules. So, no strategy to plead a case or ruse here. We aren't different. You decry evil and I do too.

BTW, I didn't make a case that they are practicing paganism. I just used the term in the standard pejorative sense, although there is a reality to where some of the things they practice are like pagan practice. It fit. I really don't care that they are off on that. That's not my focus. Again, they way they bring the gospel into derision before the world is what irks me.

I don't watch TBN or any other Christianese TV. However, I just always figured if they are spreading the Gospel of Christ ... more power to em!

Here's some food for thought, regardless of who you vote for

RavenWolf wrote:

ThomasEversole wrote:Likewise, I'm familiar with Paganism and Pagan behavior. ...masquerading as Christians isn't exactly a common or well known characteristic of Paganism.

See that's what I'm saying too. I am VERY familiar with Paganism. As my brother married a true Pagan girl. She worships about 12 different Gods. Osiris, Hekate, Apollo, heck - I am not sure who else!!! Diana is one of them.


Anyway - she is a very nice person and I've met her 'friends' too and they are all very nice. Heck, some of them have great taste in music! But alas - the last thing they would ever do is masquerade as Christian. They are AGAINST Christianity entirely. They know I'm a Christian and hold respect for me as a person and they don't judge me. Which I find more loving and Christ-like than many Christians. Christians who judge others ... well they are the ones who give Christianity such a bad name. Hypocrites. Not to say 'you' are a hypocrite David, as I don't think you are. But I'm just saying ... judging others (including Trump) ... is not a very Godly thing to do.


I know sometimes we do have to judge actions and taste fruit. That is why I say I don't trust Trump nor would I vote for him. But I would never judge the man's heart. What if he just recently started to believe in Christ or something? Even if not ... I try to never judge.

You posted while I was responding to Thomas. Look at it for some answers to my motivations and what I was doing using the term pagan.

I don't see where I judged Trumps heart. This is the 2nd time that allegation has come up and I thought I already clarified that.

The only judgment I made about Trump is that I believe that he is playing the religious politics card. I also stated , less directly, that he lacks spiritual discernment if he's going to parade his orthodoxy as a 'Presbyterian' over Carson Advent-ism while schmoozing up to the TBN crowd. I don't know where his heart is, but I'll say he's never done or said anything in public that would compel me to think that if we were to get together that we would have some Christian fellowship. Frankly, I'm surprised to hear any confession of faith from him (outside of this season of political expediency).

Yes, people who go about judging others in violation of the principle of Matt 7:3 do bring a bad name to the faith. But that isn't to say that we must cast aside discernment. Paul had no problem decrying the false teachers that entered into the congregations. When we see the wolves enter in, we need to speak up and say something. More than the jerk with a plank in his eye causes the faith to be ridiculed are the false teachers that exploit the ignorant stealing their money leaving them worse off than before they started. Why? Because a guy with the plank is only one and they, though one, are on the TV before millions parading their shame.

Here's a simple way for you guys to better understand what I'm getting at. I know this is the metal realm, but this hip hop really spells it out easily.

Here's a link to the lyrics if you don't want to listen to the video.
http://www.songlyrics.com/shai-linne/fale-teacher-lyrics/

OH I know there are false teachers out there. I don't trust any TV preachers. With the exception of Joel Osteen. I like him. I think he is very solid and true. When I listen to him I feel ministered to. But he is pretty much the only one I trust. I know that a lot of them are crooks.

But I'm just saying, not all of them are like that.

RavenWolf wrote:OH I know there are false teachers out there. I don't trust any TV preachers. With the exception of Joel Osteen. I like him. I think he is very solid and true. When I listen to him I feel ministered to. But he is pretty much the only one I trust. I know that a lot of them are crooks.

But I'm just saying, not all of them are like that.

So, there's the thing. You know that a lot are crooks. What should we be saying about them then? This isn't an issue of just judging a brother with a sin struggle (Matt 7:3), this is about decrying those who distort the gospel (the vital message of life) for power and filthy lucre while bringing it into derision. So, when I **gag** over someone playing the religion card with heretics, please don't take it as me simply judging others with a plank in my eye.

Grindboy wrote:We can't handle theology but politics will probably go awesome.

When I saw this thread I was thinking the same thing, you know the whole can of worms thing but be careful Id hate for you to slip on some worms they're everywhere.

I don't watch TBN or any other Christianese TV

Is that like some real chinesy food?

I'm double quoting my re-quotes.

RavenWolf wrote:Which I find more loving and Christ-like than many Christians. Christians who judge others ... well they are the ones who give Christianity such a bad name. Hypocrites. Not to say 'you' are a hypocrite David, as I don't think you are. But I'm just saying ... judging others (including Trump) ... is not a very Godly thing to do.

Judging is reserved for God, not us. Its all over scripture.
...and I'll just point this out again.

ThomasEversole wrote:
There's a huge difference between making an observation, and flat out JUDGING someone.
There's a huge difference between judging someone (taking their inventory) and keeping it to yourself...
...and again, a huge difference between judging someone and broadcasting your conclusion in a public forum for everyone to see.

d@v!d wrote:Really, you and anyone else reading ought to have enough discernment about what TBN does that I shouldn't have to make a thread to deal with it.

I don't think you mean discernment... Discernment (in Christian contexts) is perception in the absence of judgment with a view to obtaining spiritual direction and understanding. Lets go back to what you said here.

d@v!d wrote:You don't know anything about TBN, so you don't see anything odd in the video. I agree, on the surface it looks normal.

Of what I've seen of TBN (which is very little) on the surface, it does look normal. I think we can agree that its more than just the Trump praying video. So, to see TBN being pagan, we have to go beyond the surface and become a "sin hunter".

Therein lies the problem. We're all sinners - It will be like digging to find dirt.

I completely get how everyone in the media lives in a glass house. ...but just because someone's house is see through doesn't mean we are mandated to (or even should) take it upon ourselves to stare inside to look for dirty clothes.
That doesn't get us closer to God, therefore, its rather pointless.

I knew I threw around the words ugly and tacky. I think that because its not only judgmental, but very "tabloid-ish" as well.

d@v!d wrote:The reason why I've invited you to PM about it is because of the forum rules. I'd rather not have a discussion that dips into theology in public and risk breaking the rules. So, no strategy to plead a case or ruse here. We aren't different. You decry evil and I do too.

First of all, we are totally different regarding our public denounce of sin.
What I said regarding #ShoutYourAbortion is on the news. Its all over online. The people involved in it are extremely open about it, hence shouting it.

The only evidence I've seen from you that TBN is pagan (again, your word for them) is a lyric video on YouTube.
Come on David. Is TBN being pagan just a conspiracy theory? (THEORY as in NO PROOF)

People saying Joyce Meyers and Joel Olsteen are false teachers is vastly incorrect. They may have sin in their life, but they are definitely teachers of truth. You might as well have posted one of the YouTube videos with people saying Queen Elizabeth and George W Bush are shapeshifting reptoids from the Alpha Draconis star system, who eat babies and hold secret rituals so that the underground reptilian people will soon overthrow humanity.

I shouldn't have to explain that faith/system beliefs (theology) is quite different than presenting cold hard facts, which is well within the rules of the forum. If you don't have any PROOF that TBN is PAGAN, which should be obvious to us all, then you shouldn't be claiming such.

I'm going to wrap this up on my end in this thread.
I'm already repeating myself too much and we're getting off topic.
Nothing I say will turn me into a sin hunter that scouts glass houses, or turn you away from just that.

I'm not interested in any further judgements from the tabloid either, unless there's cold hard facts that would benefit me to know.

Just one more thing David, if you come to my house looking for grime, I'm just going to invite you in.

Need a Hammer Icon or something and i dont mean MC Hammer

ThomasEversole wrote:I'm double quoting my re-quotes.

RavenWolf wrote:Which I find more loving and Christ-like than many Christians. Christians who judge others ... well they are the ones who give Christianity such a bad name. Hypocrites. Not to say 'you' are a hypocrite David, as I don't think you are. But I'm just saying ... judging others (including Trump) ... is not a very Godly thing to do.

Judging is reserved for God, not us.  Its all over scripture.
...and I'll just point this out again.

ThomasEversole wrote:
There's a huge difference between making an observation, and flat out JUDGING someone.
There's a huge difference between judging someone (taking their inventory) and keeping it to yourself...
...and again, a huge difference between judging someone and broadcasting your conclusion in a public forum for everyone to see.

d@v!d wrote:Really, you and anyone else reading ought to have enough discernment about what TBN does that I shouldn't have to make a thread to deal with it.

I don't think you mean discernment...  Discernment (in Christian contexts) is perception in the absence of judgment with a view to obtaining spiritual direction and understanding.  Lets go back to what you said here.

d@v!d wrote:You don't know anything about TBN, so you don't see anything odd in the video. I agree, on the surface it looks normal.

Of what I've seen of TBN (which is very little) on the surface, it does look normal.  I think we can agree that its more than just the Trump praying video.  So, to see TBN being pagan, we have to go beyond the surface and become a "sin hunter".  

Therein lies the problem.  We're all sinners - It will be like digging to find dirt.

I completely get how everyone in the media lives in a glass house.  ...but just because someone's house is see through doesn't mean we are mandated to (or even should) take it upon ourselves to stare inside to look for dirty clothes.
That doesn't get us closer to God, therefore, its rather pointless.  

I knew I threw around the words ugly and tacky.  I think that because its not only judgmental, but very "tabloid-ish" as well.

d@v!d wrote:The reason why I've invited you to PM about it is because of the forum rules. I'd rather not have a discussion that dips into theology in public and risk breaking the rules. So, no strategy to plead a case or ruse here. We aren't different. You decry evil and I do too.

First of all, we are totally different regarding our public denounce of sin.
What I said regarding #ShoutYourAbortion is on the news.  Its all over online.  The people involved in it are extremely open about it, hence shouting it.

The only evidence I've seen from you that TBN is pagan (again, your word for them) is a lyric video on YouTube.  
Come on David.  Is TBN being pagan just a conspiracy theory?  (THEORY as in NO PROOF)

People saying Joyce Meyers and Joel Olsteen are false teachers is vastly incorrect.  They may have sin in their life, but they are definitely teachers of truth.  You might as well have posted one of the YouTube videos with people saying Queen Elizabeth and George W Bush are shapeshifting reptoids from the Alpha Draconis star system, who eat babies and hold secret rituals so that the underground reptilian people will soon overthrow humanity.

I shouldn't have to explain that faith/system beliefs (theology) is quite different than presenting cold hard facts, which is well within the rules of the forum.  If you don't have any PROOF that TBN is PAGAN, which should be obvious to us all, then you shouldn't be claiming such.  

I'm going to wrap this up on my end in this thread.  
I'm already repeating myself too much and we're getting off topic.
Nothing I say will turn me into a sin hunter that scouts glass houses, or turn you away from just that.

I'm not interested in any further judgements from the tabloid either, unless there's cold hard facts that would benefit me to know.

Just one more thing David, if you come to my house looking for grime, I'm just going to invite you in.

Oh Thomas, now what do I say? You clearly aren't reading my posts very well. I made very clear that this isn't a sin issue but an issue of false practice that brings the gospel into derision. Why do you persist in muddling together those ideas? I'm not calling out anyone on TBN because they fall into any particular sin; I call them out because they teach a false gospel, exploit and injure people with their teachings, and ultimately bring the true gospel into public derision.

What seems crazy to me here is that you say you don't know what they do and yet you call me out for decrying them. It reminds me a lot of you lecturing everyone about Sabbath. If you have no skin in the game, why are you playing?

I've given more than enough info about what TBN is for you or anyone to pick up the ball and find out what the issues are and verify the facts if you don't really know. The video was just a simple summary explanation of the issue, not intended to be evidence. There is a huge slew of scholars online that have documented their teachings and explain the issues. I've stated what they do. If you choose not believe it, fine, but don't act shocked or pretend to wonder why if I decry them in other threads.


Here's another thing to think about. How does one know what counterfeit money looks like? One only does when one is familiar with real money. If you don't know biblical truth well, then you will fall easily for the counterfeit.

This is the guy who wrote that rap I posted explaining why he wrote it. Listen closely starting at 2:20 where he sources his material.

Listen to this TBN regular and tell me if you think that he's preaching gospel truth.

See, I'd say that John MacArthur is the false teacher. Same with that rapper dude.

But that's just me. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm not arrogant enough to assume that I am right and others are the ones wrong. When I see someone who thinks they are right - and others are wrong. I see arrogance and that tells me who the false teacher is. In this case John MacArthur is the false teacher, but I won't go around posting about it and slandering him ... the way he is doing with Joel Osteen.

RavenWolf wrote:See, I'd say that John MacArthur is the false teacher. Same with that rapper dude.

But, on what basis? The bible only has one message. Just because we in the 21 century have a hard time understanding it doesn't mean that it has multiple meanings? Why would God give us an ambiguous message? So, either Linne and MacArthur are right or Osteen is right or they are all wrong. I don't see any arrogance from any party, but even if they are arrogant, it doesn't mean they are wrong in their message, just wrong in their delivery of their message.

But that's just me. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm not arrogant enough to assume that I am right and others are the ones wrong. When I see someone who thinks they are right - and others are wrong. I see arrogance and that tells me who the false teacher is. In this case John MacArthur is the false teacher, but I won't go around posting about it and slandering him ... the way he is doing with Joel Osteen.

Like I said before, either you know what is genuine so your can spot what is fake or you don't. If you don't know what is real, you'll be easily deceived by what is fake.

Did you even listen to the video of MacArthur? He quoted Osteen several times. Do you really believe that what Osteen says is what the bible says? The teachings of Osteen quoted in the video aren't biblical Christianity.

Tell me, is it arrogant or 'judgmental' to decry the Westboro 'church'? If I were to quote them and say it isn't biblical, am I being arrogant too and thus false?

Linne nailed it in his rap when he says that "Because today the only heresy is saying that there's heresy."

These false teachers are a blemish on the church. Why should I be silent about a problem I see? They rob God of His glory and abuse people. It's a travesty.

I'm not on a crusade to decry them, but when the subject comes up, I speak my mind. So, when I see a political candidate moseying up to these crooks, **gag**