Trump vs Carson on religion ?

RavenWolf wrote:See, I'd say that John MacArthur is the false teacher. Same with that rapper dude.

But that's just me. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm not arrogant enough to assume that I am right and others are the ones wrong. When I see someone who thinks they are right - and others are wrong. I see arrogance and that tells me who the false teacher is. In this case John MacArthur is the false teacher, but I won't go around posting about it and slandering him ... the way he is doing with Joel Osteen.

We will never know what is true and what is not with this post modern approach of " whats true for you may that be true for me. "

At its core, the disagreement is between those whos authority is the Word of God vs the authority of their feelings. Our feelings must conform to Gods revelation.

With your approach, you would never be able to test the claims of Mormons or Jehovahs Witnesses on the topic of Monotheism and the deity of Christ.

ThomasEversole wrote:


Judging is reserved for God, not us.  Its all over scripture.
...and I'll just point this out again.

Naw, God wants us to make proper judgments. Just not for self centered reasons. Judgment that comes from a heart that seeks the truth or to spell out destructive things is good and proper.

John 7
" Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

ThomasEversole wrote:

You two should be ashamed for judging this man.  
You don't know where his heart is.

This man has a public forum asking us to believe certain things about him. If I believe he is saying something or doing something in order to get more votes, that is not sincere motivations for me. If I cannot discern that Trump is simply playing the " evangelical " card, then I probably can't discern too much else about his character.

I simply want to give my view a public hearing that while Trump may be appealing to Christians on some levels, he still appears to be playing politics. Trump has got a schtick for sure, and I'm saying he is getting Christians interested in him for the wrong reasons.

ThomasEversole wrote:
...until he looked over and saw a woman moved to tears over the sermon.  Obviously that woman was getting spiritually fed, while Pastor Rogers was busy taking inventory - through the same message both were in the presence of.  At its core, its pessimism vs. optimism.

So do you believe that the emotional response to something is how Christians should judge the truth claims or teachings ? The over emphasis of emotions is one of the big factors of why Christians allow so much false teaching in the Church in the first place. Lack of scriptural authority is the other.

RavenWolf wrote:OH I know there are false teachers out there. I don't trust any TV preachers. With the exception of Joel Osteen. I like him. I think he is very solid and true. When I listen to him I feel ministered to. But he is pretty much the only one I trust. I know that a lot of them are crooks.

There is a lot I could say about Joel Osteen, but I would like to get at the heart of what I don't like about his teaching.

Colossians 2
1Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. 3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.…


Other than being very wishy-washy on the Gospel, his motivational-based sermons may have Christians focused too much on earthly pursuits. Ya know.....your best life now.

...back on topic.

"I love Iowa. And, look, I don't have to say it, I'm Presbyterian," said Trump. "Can you believe it? Nobody believes I'm Presbyterian. I'm Presbyterian. I'm Presbyterian. I'm Presbyterian. Boy, that's down the middle of the road folks, in all fairness. I mean, Seventh-day Adventist, I don't know about. I just don't know about."



Would anyone like to comment on this quote by Trump ? For such a small statement, it sure says a lot.

ThomasEversole wrote:
People saying Joyce Meyers and Joel Olsteen are false teachers is vastly incorrect.  They may have sin in their life, but they are definitely teachers of truth.

This is why there cannot be productive theological discussions here. There is just too wide of a difference in what informs each side of what " tuth " is. Just vastly differences of authority for truth.

sentient 6 wrote:

ThomasEversole wrote:
People saying Joyce Meyers and Joel Olsteen are false teachers is vastly incorrect.  They may have sin in their life, but they are definitely teachers of truth.

This is why there cannot be productive theological discussions here. There is just too wide of a difference in what informs each side of what " truth " is. Just vastly differences of authority for truth.

No, people muddle the ideas of good doctrine and personal sin. There's a box full of thinking caps sitting in the lost and found section.

sentient 6 wrote:...back on topic.

"I love Iowa. And, look, I don't have to say it, I'm Presbyterian," said Trump. "Can you believe it? Nobody believes I'm Presbyterian. I'm Presbyterian. I'm Presbyterian. I'm Presbyterian. Boy, that's down the middle of the road folks, in all fairness. I mean, Seventh-day Adventist, I don't know about. I just don't know about."



Would anyone like to comment on this quote by Trump ? For such a small statement, it sure says a lot.

What I said that he is playing the religious politics card. What else, besides a jab at Carson?

sentient 6 wrote:...back on topic.

"I love Iowa. And, look, I don't have to say it, I'm Presbyterian," said Trump. "Can you believe it? Nobody believes I'm Presbyterian. I'm Presbyterian. I'm Presbyterian. I'm Presbyterian. Boy, that's down the middle of the road folks, in all fairness. I mean, Seventh-day Adventist, I don't know about. I just don't know about."



Would anyone like to comment on this quote by Trump ? For such a small statement, it sure says a lot.

This is just my $.02 on this, but here it goes.  First, saying something you "don't have to say" is just pure political horse hockey.  Second, if Trump was trying to play to the Republican party's evangelical core by declaring himself a Presbyterian, boy did he whiff on that one.  Now, I'm not going to dispute whether or not he's Presbyterian--I don't know, and frankly, I don't care.  Perhaps he was raised in a Presbyterian church, perhaps he really does attend a Presbyterian church now.  But, being a Presbyterian isn't going to win him any points with the Baptists.  Heck, even my Methodist friends think the Presbyterians are liberal!  So, what this shows me is that Trump is playing the religion card, but he's really out of his league with it.  He knows he needs to identify as religious, but doesn't really understand the intricacies of the community he's trying to manipulate (and yes, I see this as nothing more than a political game and an attempt at manipulating the voters rather than a genuine profession of faith).  That being said, he does know enough to realize that a lot of Evangelicals see Adventism as little more than a cult, so he's trying to cast some doubt about the legitimacy of Carson by subtly painting him as being a member of some wacky cult.  It also seems to me that it is just another example of Trump thinking he is so much smarter than everyone else.  He seems like he is treating the religious community as a bunch of idiots who would chose a loudmouth bully from a "legitimate" denomination over a soft-spoken, gentle-spirited "cultist".

Again, just my off-the-top-of-my-head thoughts.

messiaen77 wrote:

sentient 6 wrote:...back on topic.

"I love Iowa. And, look, I don't have to say it, I'm Presbyterian," said Trump. "Can you believe it? Nobody believes I'm Presbyterian. I'm Presbyterian. I'm Presbyterian. I'm Presbyterian. Boy, that's down the middle of the road folks, in all fairness. I mean, Seventh-day Adventist, I don't know about. I just don't know about."



Would anyone like to comment on this quote by Trump ? For such a small statement, it sure says a lot.

This is just my $.02 on this, but here it goes.  First, saying something you "don't have to say" is just pure political horse hockey.  Second, if Trump was trying to play to the Republican party's evangelical core by declaring himself a Presbyterian, boy did he whiff on that one.  Now, I'm not going to dispute whether or not he's Presbyterian--I don't know, and frankly, I don't care.  Perhaps he was raised in a Presbyterian church, perhaps he really does attend a Presbyterian church now.  But, being a Presbyterian isn't going to win him any points with the Baptists.  Heck, even my Methodist friends think the Presbyterians are liberal!  So, what this shows me is that Trump is playing the religion card, but he's really out of his league with it.  He knows he needs to identify as religious, but doesn't really understand the intricacies of the community he's trying to manipulate (and yes, I see this as nothing more than a political game and an attempt at manipulating the voters rather than a genuine profession of faith).  That being said, he does know enough to realize that a lot of Evangelicals see Adventism as little more than a cult, so he's trying to cast some doubt about the legitimacy of Carson by subtly painting him as being a member of some wacky cult.  It also seems to me that it is just another example of Trump thinking he is so much smarter than everyone else.  He seems like he is treating the religious community as a bunch of idiots who would chose a loudmouth bully from a "legitimate" denomination over a soft-spoken, gentle-spirited "cultist".

Again, just my off-the-top-of-my-head thoughts.

Well said.

First some background.....

The two churches that Trump is associated with, First Presbyterian Church in Queens/ Marble Collegiate Church, are both liberal churches. First PC in queens is a PCUSA church and has lost its adherent to the authority of the Bible a long time ago. There are solid Presbyterian denominations out there ( PCA, OPC ) but PCUSA is not one of them. There may some holdouts in the PCUSA, but for the most part its very liberal. The Marble Collegiate Church claims to be a " reformed " church, but its very similar to the PCUSA in their beliefs. Weak Gospel proclamation, weak against abortion, pro gay marriage and a tendency to not take much of the Bible literally ( boy, that one sure needs to be unpacked to fully understand what I mean. )

..heres the links to the Churches.

http://www.marblechurch.org/

http://www.firstchurchjamaica.org/


...some articles with Trump talking about his church experiences.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/28/politics/donald-trump-church-member/

http://www.christianpost.com/news/6-interesting-facts-about-donald-trumps-christian-faith-140522/

http://www.religionnews.com/2015/06/16/5-faith-facts-donald-trump-presbyterian-collects-bibles/


....people can read and research stuff and come to their own conclusions.

......I don't like doing long posts....so I will talk about Ben Carsons beliefs and denomination when I get time.

Perhaps he was raised in a Presbyterian church, perhaps he really does attend a Presbyterian church now. 

I know one thing he didn't say that he was a sinner saved by Grace. He didn't say he was he was trusting Christ for his salvation. Nothing about how the Gospel of Christ. And like you said, the mouth speaks from whats in the heart.

sentient 6 wrote:

ThomasEversole wrote:
People saying Joyce Meyers and Joel Olsteen are false teachers is vastly incorrect.  They may have sin in their life, but they are definitely teachers of truth.

This is why there cannot be productive theological discussions here. There is just too wide of a difference in what informs each side of what " tuth " is. Just vastly differences of authority for truth.

but yet you guys still try frankly Im surprised this thread has gone on as long as it has.....

sentient 6 wrote:

Perhaps he was raised in a Presbyterian church, perhaps he really does attend a Presbyterian church now. 

I know one thing he didn't say that he was a sinner saved by Grace. He didn't say he was he was trusting Christ for his salvation. Nothing about how the Gospel of Christ. And like you said, the mouth speaks from whats in the heart.

Right.  Honestly though, I don't care.  It's not just that the only way Donald Trump would get my vote for President is if Satan himself was his opponent; I resent the fact that person's stated faith has become a litmus test for some voters.  I think if you are truly someone who follows after Christ, I can tell it without you having to tell me what church you go to or what your favorite Bible verse is.

messiaen77 wrote:

sentient 6 wrote:

Perhaps he was raised in a Presbyterian church, perhaps he really does attend a Presbyterian church now. 

I know one thing he didn't say that he was a sinner saved by Grace. He didn't say he was he was trusting Christ for his salvation. Nothing about how the Gospel of Christ. And like you said, the mouth speaks from whats in the heart.

Right.  Honestly though, I don't care.  It's not just that the only way Donald Trump would get my vote for President is if Satan himself was his opponent; I resent the fact that person's stated faith has become a litmus test for some voters.  I think if you are truly someone who follows after Christ, I can tell it without you having to tell me what church you go to or what your favorite Bible verse is.

That hits on the other element that bothers em too. In a way it trivializes the faith to make it a political litmus test.

Aaron C wrote:

sentient 6 wrote:

ThomasEversole wrote:
People saying Joyce Meyers and Joel Olsteen are false teachers is vastly incorrect.  They may have sin in their life, but they are definitely teachers of truth.

This is why there cannot be productive theological discussions here. There is just too wide of a difference in what informs each side of what " tuth " is. Just vastly differences of authority for truth.

but yet you guys still try frankly Im surprised this thread has gone on as long as it has.....

Well it's like preaching the gospel. Experience tells you that you are working in vain, but....

Aaron C wrote:

sentient 6 wrote:

ThomasEversole wrote:
People saying Joyce Meyers and Joel Olsteen are false teachers is vastly incorrect.  They may have sin in their life, but they are definitely teachers of truth.

This is why there cannot be productive theological discussions here. There is just too wide of a difference in what informs each side of what " tuth " is. Just vastly differences of authority for truth.

but yet you guys still try frankly Im surprised this thread has gone on as long as it has.....

Many of us who remain are able to keep things civil and speak on the level of ideas without getting personal.

Yeah it got personal because Ravenwolf felt like he was getting trashed because of his views on Joel Osteem to the point he's not coming back frankly since i invited him here I am quite pissed and considering departing as well since my friend is not coming back

I thought this place had changed..... guess I Was wrong

Aaron C wrote:Yeah it got personal because Ravenwolf felt like he was getting trashed because of his views on Joel Osteem to the point he's not coming back frankly since i invited him here I am quite pissed and considering departing as well since my friend is not coming back

I thought this place had changed..... guess I Was wrong

Now wait a minute...I've looked all through this thread and I don't see a single instance of what I would consider anyone being trashed over anything.  Can you please show me where this took place?  I'd really like to understand.  I mean, I disagree with S6 in a lot of areas, but I don't see how anyone could see anything personal in there.  So I'm sorry to see you guys go, you've both brought a lot to the forum, but I don't think you can pin this one on us.

I Didnt say I was leaving I said i was CONSIDERING it, as for what was said, you  need to talk to Raven about that because all I know is he's gone and its because of this thread.

Aaron C wrote:Yeah it got personal because Ravenwolf felt like he was getting trashed because of his views on Joel Osteem to the point he's not coming back frankly since i invited him here I am quite pissed and considering departing as well since my friend is not coming back

I thought this place had changed..... guess I Was wrong

Let him know that nothing I said was directed towards him and that he shouldn't take anything I said personally. I was asked to clarify why I have a problem with TBN and I gave some some reasons but I never made them personal to him or anyone else. There's no reason for him to have hard feelings. Have your read through the thread; don't you agree?

The guy has been pretty cool and has brought quite a few good music and social discussions here. I'd hate to see him leave over something as trivial as this.

The only reason I am even in this thread is because my friend left. I dont do politics or theological discussions because I know how I get and I believe that they are very personal topics, ive seen both destroy friendships and divide families. Ive seen it destroy online communities.  Talking about them isnt going to change the world or anybody elses' view, Ive never once seen someone on a board like this go "Oh your right let me read up for myself" or "This discussion changed my view" Not once in the 12 years i have been on these boards. if you feel that strongly about corrupt crooks siezing power then run for an office. I am neither republican or democrat nor am I an anarchist but I am a firm believer that this system does not work at all and that is probably the most political thing i will ever say here.

I have watched a few TV Preachers evangelicals, whatever you call them and every single one has preached and focued on a prosperity gospel focusing on wealth and riches all of them except 1, that was Joel Osteen. That impressed me enough to continue watching.  Ravenwolf has been blessed and ministered to through Joel Osteen's ministry. He feels like that people here have trashed a man he looks up to. I know how Id feel if people started to trash my Pastor lets just say it wouldnt end well for me or anybody in my path.

The guy has been pretty cool and has brought quite a few good music and social discussions here. I'd hate to see him leave over something as trivial as this.

He's got charisma, and always gives me something interesting to talk about.

messiaen77 wrote:

Peter who was Vaak wrote:Until he starts calling liberals terrorists, Trump is still more decent than Obama.  Obama precipitated all this.
EDIT:
Anyone who attacks Trump but also voted for Obama is a rank hypocrite.  Obama has been using government resources to go after conservatives with the IRS, he's used his voice to attack private citizens like that guy in Iowa was it, and suddenly language is a problem?  Grow up.  Your side has perfected tyranny and you voted for it.  Want to complain about tone?  Look in the mirror: this started with your vote.

I'm just gonna assume this was a general comment that was not directed at me personally and move on.

That's funny messianen77 I thought it was directed at me !

Thanks for the nice words!  

Okay - before I officially leave ... I'm going to give my two cents.

For many years my family and I didn't have a good church to attend. We now have found a good church. But in the meantime we didn't have anywhere to call home.

I don't trust TV preachers at all because it seems they are out to get your money! But for some reason ... we started watching Joel Osteen and we felt ministered to. We watched him again ... week after week. And we felt like we were growing. We noticed that he NEVER once took up an offering or told anyone to send him money! This was different from other preachers we saw. We started to trust him.


I have learned SO much from Joel Osteen, I don't even know where to begin! He is like a personal pastor of mine! Even though I'm in Utah and he's in Texas. Before I had found a church home, Joel was my pastor and I still consider him to be! Personal attacks on him - are very personal to me! Is this whole board against my pastor???? Because if so ... that hurts. It also seems funny that Joel Osteen never talks bad about anyone - yet so many folks talk bad about him! That reminds me a lot of someone named Jesus.  



All he does is teach truth. Love. Peace. Joy. He focuses on positive things. And so do I! God is a POSITIVE and LOVING God! Not a negative bashing and Pharisee God!! Bashing others (especially men and women of God) is VERY dark and evil! Those who do such ... to me ... are the true Pharisees and are of their father the devil!!!!

So if you are going to judge me. Or my pastor (Joel Osteen), because I still consider him my pastor after all these years. Then I will leave this board and wipe the dust from my feet when I do.

If not. If there are any here who would tell me that they are NOT against me (or my pastor). Then I might stay. But I want to be upfront and honest. I believe in a GOOD God. I believe in Joel Osteen. And he is VERY different from most preachers. I don't trust most of them. I don't trust Kenneth Copeland and Creflo Dollar. But I do trust Joel Osteen as he is different from them.


I'm also very sad. Because when I came here to this board (thanks to the invitation of my very good friend, Aaron, whom I met years ago on another board) I began to think I had found a home online of sorts. Fellow believers who also loved Metal and other kinds of music. I had no idea that there was such hostility toward my pastor and the Word of God he teaches.



So .... please ... let me know. Should I stay or go? I don't want to cause problems for anyone here! I LOVE YOU GUYS!!! ALL OF YOU! I've began to make friendships here that could possibly turn into lifelong friendships. I'm saddened to think of losing all this.  



But I will listen to what you say. Please ... if you think I'm a heretic because I listen to Joel Osteen. There is no way I can hang around for the derision that follows such judgement.