Re: ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

by Guest Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:54 pm

Thiago-Brazil wrote:
Mortal wrote:
Thiago-Brazil wrote:
Mortal wrote:
Thiago-Brazil wrote:You are changing the subject of the discussion. It is about piracy and whether you are against it or not. This is not about how grateful people are.

Well...anytime a person starts talking about "not getting paid", and "working for free"....when you know it isn't true...

...a person's gratitude does come into question.

Some of the folks who talk about "not getting paid" and "working for free" would lead some to believe that they have not received one single penny for their efforts.

I think it's ridiculous.
Then, let me paraphrase it: "not getting properly paid." Even though the band or artist in question doesn't get paid at all for the customer that download their album.

I mean, if I download the album, then Worldview won't get paid for what I am getting.
After all, what do you think about downloading in the internet? Do you think it is fair to simply download for free someone's work without permission? How do you see this question as a christian? Or as a citizen?

How do I see this issue as a Christian?

Well...first of all...I think a person's intent has alot to do with it.

If you are not willing to look at a person's intent, then how are you handling this situation as a Christian?

There are many different reason why a person may want to download.

....and theft is not always the reason.
I can only see a reason why: Taking advantage to another person effort. What is basically my definition of theft.

What another reason can you mention?

So everyone who downloads something has the intent to cheat someone else?

Ok...I think my conversation with you may be over.

If that's what you think, there's really no need for me to list any reasons.

by Guest Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:00 pm

Or you can't find any other reasons... Rolling Eyes

by Guest Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:04 pm

Thiago-Brazil wrote:Or you can't find any other reasons...

No...there are other reasons.

Trying to tag an intent on someone, when it's not actually their intent, is just ridiculous IMO.

It makes one out to be an accuser.

by wintersdawn Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:05 pm

People have different opinions on this issue and maybe their positions will not be changed by anything that someone says in this thread. It might be best to leave it up to each person to decide what they think/believe is right.

by Guest Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:12 pm

wintersdawn wrote:People have different opinions on this issue and maybe their positions will not be changed by anything that someone says in this thread. It might be best to leave it up to each person to decide what they think/believe is right.

You're right.

I'm not for theft at all, but I do feel some folks are being way too legalistic on this issue.

I really don't think the laws concerning this are as cut and dried as some folks would like for us to believe.

by srguenther Mon Jun 01, 2015 4:45 pm

When U2 released Songs of Innocence for free to iTunes users I got it in my account, but I'm an android person so I had no idea how to use icloud. I ended up downloading it from a torrent site. So I stole an album I already got for free.....

by Guest Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:18 pm

srguenther wrote:When U2 released Songs of Innocence for free to iTunes users I got it in my account, but I'm an android person so I had no idea how to use icloud. I ended up downloading it from a torrent site. So I stole an album I already got for free.....

Shame on you for making U2 work for free.

Just Joking

by grandeped Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:23 pm

Oh, and people do complain like crazy when they can't get images from image sites. I see it all the time. Any time you block any people from getting any content they complain.

Then again, people complained like crazy that they got a free U2 album. So the reality is, people just complain when they don't get things their way.

We complain about people stealing music, saying they violate the Bible, when we are all owning or renting houses that were sold by property ownership standards that clearly violate Biblical principles. But I guess we all want to overlook that since society says it is now okay Smile

by Guest Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:06 pm

Two wrongs never make a right, grandeped. Very, very bad argument.

by Wildcat Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:19 pm

I agree that it's going a bit too far to suggest that anyone who pirates music isn't a real Christian. As much as I wish it wasn't so, Christians are still capable of sinning.

With that being said, I really don't see how you can justify it from a Christian ethical standpoint. Even if it isn't necessarily a physical product in this digital age, music is still a product for sale. I don't see how you can call taking it for yourself without paying anything other than stealing.

Since some people are arguing rather vehemently that things aren't so simple, could someone give an concrete example of a situation where you feel pirating is morally acceptable? Because you want it, but can't afford it isn't a legitimate reason in my opinion.

by Guest Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:47 pm

Wintersdawn, I agree, but I can't understand how can someone agree with piracy? All the opinions from people who thinks downloading music illegally is not crime, are showing their point of views with bias. The law is clear and tries to protect the artist, but the law can't face that huge army from people who help each other to download it in the internet.

Don't you have US$20,00 to support your favorite band? Then don't buy it!

How can you use intention as an argument? Is there anyone so naive that thinks that is allowed to download for free something protected by rights wothout the owner permission? We all know it is ilegal.

by Guest Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:00 pm

Wildcat, if your post is directed to me, you totally misanderstood me. I can't say someone is a real christian, half christian, not christian or anything else. This judgement doesn't belong to me. All I can say is that Jesus is the only one who is holy and we are all sinners trying to be like him.

What I said is that is expected from a christian to stand against any kind of piracy.

And I basically agree with anything else you said.

by Guest Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:05 pm

Thiago-Brazil wrote:Since some people are arguing rather vehemently that things aren't so simple, could someone give an concrete example of a situation where you feel pirating is morally acceptable?

Do you feel it's morally acceptable for people to film concerts and show them to people who never purchased a concert ticket?

I've seen lots of live "pirated" concert footage of various bands. Even Christian metal bands, and no one says a peep about that.

Wouldn't those folks be stealing and pirating concert tickets?

If you don't feel this is morally acceptable, then where is your outrage about this?

And where is your outrage about people eavesdropping on outdoor concerts without paying for admission?

I might take one more seriously if they were consistent in their arguments.

by Wildcat Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:27 pm

@ Thiago-Brazil- The first part of my post was directed at the title of this thread, not anything you had said. I agree with your stance on this issue.

@Mortal- You're the one who stated that piracy might not be morally wrong or equivalent to theft depending on the person's intent. If you really feel that way, why can't you simply give an example of what kind of intent would make it a morally acceptable practice rather than dodging the question by throwing out a whole laundry list of other issues that are only tangentially related at best?

by Guest Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:53 pm

Wildcat wrote:@ Thiago-Brazil- The first part of my post was directed at the title of this thread, not anything you had said. I agree with your stance on this issue.

@Mortal- You're the one who stated that piracy might not be morally wrong or equivalent to theft depending on the person's intent. If you really feel that way, why can't you simply give an example of what kind of intent would make it a morally acceptable practice rather than dodging the question by throwing out a whole laundry list of other issues that are only tangentially related at best?

Why don't you read what it is I'm saying instead of accusing me of dodging the question?

I've already given several examples of situations that could also be considered piracy, but are generally accepted by folks.

And if one thinks these issues are "only tangentially related at best", then they're not very consistent in their argument, and I'm not really all that convinced that they feel it is wrong like they say they do.

It seems like the only reason some folks think it is wrong is because there is a law against it.

And then they want to question me on what is "morally acceptable"??

Go figure Rolling Eyes

by KaramKaram Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:00 pm

So, for you, downloading an album that you haven't paid for it is Ok? And if it is Ok for you can you tell why?

by Guest Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:10 pm

How about we start another thread titled "Is Breaking The Law Morally Wrong?"...

Then we can discuss people jaywalking, and running red lights, etc...and we can question their intent and morality there.

Sound good?

by Guest Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:12 pm

KaramKaram wrote:So, for you, downloading an album that you haven't paid for it is Ok? And if it is Ok for you can you tell why?

There are so many factors that could come in to play with that scenerio.....so I won't get into it.

But take note of this...I do not encourage anyone to break the law.

by Candlemass Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:48 pm

George, you don't know what it's like!!!! What a Face

by ludey7 Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:53 pm

I'm confused how anyone can defend this as anything but stealing. A product is for sale... If you obtain it by any other means but purchasing it - how is that not stealing? Forget how you feel about it morally - by definition it's a product for sale someone decided they didn't need to pay for. The reasons for that still do not change the action. Intentions can be as pure as the driven snow - you still took something you didn't pay for...right?

by Guest Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:25 pm

ludey7, you are exactly right.

by Guest Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:47 pm

Here is an interesting article that is relevant to the subject.

http://theconversation.com/is-downloading-really-stealing-the-ethics-of-digital-piracy-39930

by Guest Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:08 am

ludey7 wrote:Forget how you feel about it morally

If you are going to ask one to forget about it morally, that person may, in return, ask you to stop asserting that it is equal to common theft.

Are you ready to do that?

The link I just posted above may help you on that.

by ludey7 Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:18 am

I read the article and I think it agreed with my point actually. Which was to point out that it's stealing. Doesn't matter how you feel about it morally. By definition it's stealing. One can liken it to harmless or no one actually lost anything so it's not as bad as some other crime. All might be true... Doesn't make it not stealing. How one feels about it morally - whether they think it's no big deal or they think it is a huge deal - that is irrelevant to defining the act...and the act is its theft. How major or minor the theft is up to you I guess? But it's still theft right? I don't think anyone here can possibly argue that it's not theft in some form or fashion. If you think it's not stealing a product that is commercially for sale then I don't think we are talking about the same thing. How you feel about it doesn't matter to me. If you feel it's wrong or if you don't - you still participated in obtaining a product for sale without paying for it. Not sure how it's not cut and dry.

by Guest Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:40 am

I think you may have missed the point of the article.

The article made two crucial points:

1) It is unfair to equate this with common theft (stealing)

2) It is unfair for a downloader to have to suffer the same penalty as one who actually DID commit common theft.

It's not as cut and dried as you think.

Equating this to stealing turns it into a criminal case.

Do you really think a situation like this is a criminal case?

That is what you imply when you equate it with stealing.

You say to forget about it morally, then you equate it with stealing. How can one forget about it morally when the assertion of stealing is still there?

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