ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

Black Rider wrote:But if somebody CAN'T pay and is making the copy just for his own it has no effect on the artist. Without the illegal download / copy not a single cent more would go to the artist. So I don't see why this should be wrong from a moral perspective.


What? It affects the artist because his intellectual property is now being taken when it should've been paid for. You could argue this way for stealing physical property from a store or other people, if you don't buy they wouldn't get money so just take the item. You know, Romans and Titus and 1 Peter all tell us to obey the governing authorities.

Replace "music" with "food."  Is it okay to steal food because you can't afford to pay? Medicine? Household cleaning products? 

Which part of "Thou shalt not steal" don't you understand?

Tobi Elektrik wrote:

lhversaw wrote:

Tobi Elektrik wrote:

lhversaw wrote:

pathogenics_cloned_twin83 wrote:Does this 'scumbag' label extend to downloading stuff stuff thats out of print and selling for major bucks on Ebay/Amazon?

Even if it is out of print and sells for major bucks on ebay it is still illegal to download them and therefore wrong. People who try to justify their actions by stating that it is out of print and too expensive or I don't have enough money so that is why they do it is just that an EXCUSE TO JUSTIFY THEIR WRONGS.

So you say it is wrong just because a law says it is wrong?

No I say it is wrong because the bible says stealing is wrong and Illegal Downloading is stealing therefore it is Wrong.

The law does not define illegal downloads as stealing.  

I guess all those music pirates should have been let go after a good, sound warning, right? Not buying your flimsy argument, sir.  Stealing is stealing is stealing, period.

grandeped made a good point: To perceive illegal downloads as the major problem is misleading. Declining sales for many artists and labels have way more reasons than just illegal downloads.

@ Neal Morse Code: Do you actually try to understand my point?  I'm not saying that illegal downloading is "right" in general and music piracy should be taken lightly.
I just try to point out that under some circumstances an illegal download does NOT have the same effect like stealing therefore shouldn't be judged as stealing from a moral perspective.

Most people here argue strictly from a legal perspective which doesn't really help to see the full picture.
The real problem is that some people don't give a damn about artists. Others who also break the law still pay a lot of money for CDs, vinyl and concert tickets. To denounce all those people equally as thieves is far from reality.

And: No, you can't replace music by food. Music itself isn't a physical product. That's why it is so hard to find an analogy that fits. BTW: It's okay to steal food if you can't effort to pay and you don't take it from somebody who needs it to survive. That's still ILLEGAL but definitely NOT wrong IMO. At least that's a good example of how LEGAL options (=eating sand and starving to death)* aren't always the RIGHT options. But maybe you disagree on that too. Which I would perceive as weird.


*for the record / for Candlemass: 1. I didn't came up with this food analogy - Neal Morse Code invented it. 2. I'm not implying that you starve if you can't download all albums for free.

Tobi Elektrik wrote:Most people here argue strictly from a legal perspective which doesn't really help to see the full picture.

Which is exactly why Christians are advised to work things out among themselves instead of using the judicial system against each other.

...But some folks don't care about that. They'll sic the judicial system on you anyway.

I legally purchase all my music, even the music I dont like and use just for MBR...and as a result I am a very poor man.

I do believe it to be stealing, but nearly all my co-workers and friends have the argument "oh well its not stealing, all we are stealing is bits and 1's and 0's".

Its stealing intellectual property in my opinion. The problem is that everyone has the mentality "its not going to hurt if 1 person downloads this", only problem is that everyone else has that mentality too. This is one reason why physical CDs are dying out.

Bands spend money pressing physical CDs to sell then everyone downloads it and leaves them to foot the cost. Exactly the reason why my next release will be digital only.

Sorry, but "right infringement" is just a soft name for stealing. And it is definetely agains't the human law, as well as God law, undoubtedly.

And there are a few people here messing things. If you apply for a volunteer job, you already know that you are not going to be paid for it...But all of these noble people probably have a job in which they need tobe paid. What if they don't get paid in the job we intend to get paid? What if people would take advantage of your work?

It doesn't matter whether you love what you do for a living or not, we all have a few obligations such as rent, installments, market and deserve to be paid for what we do.

Thiago-Brazil wrote:Sorry, but "right infringement" is just a soft name for stealing. And it is definetely agains't the human law, as well as God law, undoubtedly.

And there are a few people here messing things. If you apply for a volunteer job, you already know that you are not going to be paid for it...But all of these noble people probably have a job in which they need tobe paid. What if they don't get paid in the job we intend to get paid? What if people would take advantage of your work?

It doesn't matter whether you love what you do for a living or not, we all have a few obligations such as rent, installments, market and deserve to be paid for what we do.

I stated earlier that several customers have left me hanging on a few jobs....so yes, I do know what it's like to work and not get paid for it.

Imagine making an album and not getting paid one single red cent for it.

Yeah....Be glad you got paid SOMETHING.

And quit complaining to people who really DO know what it's like to get paid ZERO for their work.

Mortal wrote:

Thiago-Brazil wrote:Sorry, but "right infringement" is just a soft name for stealing. And it is definetely agains't the human law, as well as God law, undoubtedly.

And there are a few people here messing things. If you apply for a volunteer job, you already know that you are not going to be paid for it...But all of these noble people probably have a job in which they need tobe paid. What if they don't get paid in the job we intend to get paid? What if people would take advantage of your work?

It doesn't matter whether you love what you do for a living or not, we all have a few obligations such as rent, installments, market and deserve to be paid for what we do.

I stated earlier that several customers have left me hanging on a few jobs....so yes, I do know what it's like to work and not get paid for it.

Imagine making an album and not getting paid one single red cent for it.

Yeah....Be glad you got paid SOMETHING.

And quit complaining to people who really DO know what it's like to get paid ZERO for their work.

i don't really get what do you stand for, but here comes my answer (sorry if I misunderstood something):

Only because you are not getting paid doesn't mean that other people shouldn't get paid as well.
If you know how bad it is, then you shouldn't wish the same for anyone.

Thiago-Brazil wrote:

Mortal wrote:

Thiago-Brazil wrote:Sorry, but "right infringement" is just a soft name for stealing. And it is definetely agains't the human law, as well as God law, undoubtedly.

And there are a few people here messing things. If you apply for a volunteer job, you already know that you are not going to be paid for it...But all of these noble people probably have a job in which they need tobe paid. What if they don't get paid in the job we intend to get paid? What if people would take advantage of your work?

It doesn't matter whether you love what you do for a living or not, we all have a few obligations such as rent, installments, market and deserve to be paid for what we do.

I stated earlier that several customers have left me hanging on a few jobs....so yes, I do know what it's like to work and not get paid for it.

Imagine making an album and not getting paid one single red cent for it.

Yeah....Be glad you got paid SOMETHING.

And quit complaining to people who really DO know what it's like to get paid ZERO for their work.

i don't really get what do you stand for, but here comes my answer (sorry if I misunderstood something):

Only because you are not getting paid doesn't mean that other people shouldn't get paid as well.
If you know how bad it is, then you shouldn't wish the same for anyone.

I'm not wishing bad on anyone.

The only thing I am wishing here is that folks would stop complaining about the things they don't have, and be thankful for the things they do have.

I hear more complaints than I do gratitude from some folks.

I don't know, I am not going to slam an artist for getting peowed about his brand new release being pirated before the ink on the cover art even dries...

You can make any excuse you want for downloading, and make any argument you want about how much illegal downloading actually hurts an artist, but the bottom line is that it must feel like a violation for something you worked your butt off to make to be given away without your permission.

People copyright photos and make the photo so you can't save it / download it at full resolution to avoid their work being shared without their permission. No one complains.

But when a musician wants to protect his music people act like the musician is just whining.

A true double standard in today's society.

I guess this sums it up..

Too many people act like they are "entitled" to the music

If an artist knows that his work has the potential to be stolen, then he should figure out a way to reduce or eliminate that potential.

If the artist knows the potential is there, and does nothing about it, and then later complains because people took advantage of him...

...then it's kind of hard for me to sympathize with them over their loss.

In 2015, is there any reason to "pirate" music any more?

Everything is on YouTube (or just about everything).

If you don't want your content there then you have to police it regularly yourself and report folks who violate it.  I've done this more than once in the past with my band's music.

NoOneIsHere wrote:I am not going to slam an artist for getting peowed about his brand new release being pirated before the ink on the cover art even dries...

They can get "peowed" all they want. That's fine.

But they should make sure their frustrations are aimed in the right direction.

If there is a door left open for a thief to enter through, why then would you get mad only at the thief??

Wouldn't it be wise to focus your attention towards the person who left the door open?

Eliminate the one/thing that keeps leaving the door open, and the thieves will stop entering.

Mortal wrote:

Thiago-Brazil wrote:

Mortal wrote:

Thiago-Brazil wrote:Sorry, but "right infringement" is just a soft name for stealing. And it is definetely agains't the human law, as well as God law, undoubtedly.

And there are a few people here messing things. If you apply for a volunteer job, you already know that you are not going to be paid for it...But all of these noble people probably have a job in which they need tobe paid. What if they don't get paid in the job we intend to get paid? What if people would take advantage of your work?

It doesn't matter whether you love what you do for a living or not, we all have a few obligations such as rent, installments, market and deserve to be paid for what we do.

I stated earlier that several customers have left me hanging on a few jobs....so yes, I do know what it's like to work and not get paid for it.

Imagine making an album and not getting paid one single red cent for it.

Yeah....Be glad you got paid SOMETHING.

And quit complaining to people who really DO know what it's like to get paid ZERO for their work.

i don't really get what do you stand for, but here comes my answer (sorry if I misunderstood something):

Only because you are not getting paid doesn't mean that other people shouldn't get paid as well.
If you know how bad it is, then you shouldn't wish the same for anyone.

I'm not wishing bad on anyone.

The only thing I am wishing here is that folks would stop complaining about the things they don't have, and be thankful for the things they do have.

I hear more complaints than I do gratitude from some folks.

You are changing the subject of the discussion. It is about piracy and whether you are against it or not. This is not about how grateful people are.

Have you consider that George might not have been complaining, but encouraging us to purchase the album instead of downloading it?

Thiago-Brazil wrote:You are changing the subject of the discussion. It is about piracy and whether you are against it or not. This is not about how grateful people are.

Well...anytime a person starts talking about "not getting paid", and "working for free"....when you know it isn't true...

...a person's gratitude does come into question.

Some of the folks who talk about "not getting paid" and "working for free" would lead some to believe that they have not received one single penny for their efforts.

I think it's ridiculous.

Mortal wrote:

NoOneIsHere wrote:I am not going to slam an artist for getting peowed about his brand new release being pirated before the ink on the cover art even dries...

They can get "peowed" all they want. That's fine.

But they should make sure their frustrations are aimed in the right direction.

If there is a door left open for a thief to enter through, why then would you get mad only at the thief??

Wouldn't it be wise to focus your attention towards the person who left the door open?

Eliminate the one/thing that keeps leaving the door open, and the thieves will stop entering.

As an artist myself, this is the problem, how does an artist prevent the illegal uploading/sharing of their material or to use your example 'close the door'?

Mortal wrote:

Thiago-Brazil wrote:You are changing the subject of the discussion. It is about piracy and whether you are against it or not. This is not about how grateful people are.

Well...anytime a person starts talking about "not getting paid", and "working for free"....when you know it isn't true...

...a person's gratitude does come into question.

Some of the folks who talk about "not getting paid" and "working for free" would lead some to believe that they have not received one single penny for their efforts.

I think it's ridiculous.

Then, let me paraphrase it: "not getting properly paid." Even though the band or artist in question doesn't get paid at all for the customer that download their album.

I mean, if I download the album, then Worldview won't get paid for what I am getting.
After all, what do you think about downloading in the internet? Do you think it is fair to simply download for free someone's work without permission? How do you see this question as a christian? Or as a citizen?

wintersdawn wrote:

Mortal wrote:

NoOneIsHere wrote:I am not going to slam an artist for getting peowed about his brand new release being pirated before the ink on the cover art even dries...

They can get "peowed" all they want. That's fine.

But they should make sure their frustrations are aimed in the right direction.

If there is a door left open for a thief to enter through, why then would you get mad only at the thief??

Wouldn't it be wise to focus your attention towards the person who left the door open?

Eliminate the one/thing that keeps leaving the door open, and the thieves will stop entering.

As an artist myself, this is the problem, how does an artist prevent the illegal uploading/sharing of their material or to use your example 'close the door'?

The only way I can think of and it is kind of fair, is through crowdfunding projects. Then, you can assure that you will have a minimum investment return. Anything else you can sell after that is profit. But then, you shouldn't care about other people downloading it for free, even though it is still wrong.

Thiago-Brazil wrote:

Mortal wrote:

Thiago-Brazil wrote:You are changing the subject of the discussion. It is about piracy and whether you are against it or not. This is not about how grateful people are.

Well...anytime a person starts talking about "not getting paid", and "working for free"....when you know it isn't true...

...a person's gratitude does come into question.

Some of the folks who talk about "not getting paid" and "working for free" would lead some to believe that they have not received one single penny for their efforts.

I think it's ridiculous.

Then, let me paraphrase it: "not getting properly paid." Even though the band or artist in question doesn't get paid at all for the customer that download their album.

I mean, if I download the album, then Worldview won't get paid for what I am getting.
After all, what do you think about downloading in the internet? Do you think it is fair to simply download for free someone's work without permission? How do you see this question as a christian? Or as a citizen?

How do I see this issue as a Christian?

Well...first of all...I think a person's intent has alot to do with it.

If you are not willing to look at a person's intent, then how are you handling this situation as a Christian?

There are many different reason why a person may want to download.

....and theft is not always the reason.

wintersdawn wrote:

Mortal wrote:

NoOneIsHere wrote:I am not going to slam an artist for getting peowed about his brand new release being pirated before the ink on the cover art even dries...

They can get "peowed" all they want. That's fine.

But they should make sure their frustrations are aimed in the right direction.

If there is a door left open for a thief to enter through, why then would you get mad only at the thief??

Wouldn't it be wise to focus your attention towards the person who left the door open?

Eliminate the one/thing that keeps leaving the door open, and the thieves will stop entering.

As an artist myself, this is the problem, how does an artist prevent the illegal uploading/sharing of their material or to use your example 'close the door'?

DRM
Other forms of encryption to prevent copying
Lawsuits
Shutting down sites
Educating people on the problem

That's just a small sample of methods that they have tried to use to combat it

Thiago-Brazil wrote:

wintersdawn wrote:

Mortal wrote:

NoOneIsHere wrote:I am not going to slam an artist for getting peowed about his brand new release being pirated before the ink on the cover art even dries...

They can get "peowed" all they want. That's fine.

But they should make sure their frustrations are aimed in the right direction.

If there is a door left open for a thief to enter through, why then would you get mad only at the thief??

Wouldn't it be wise to focus your attention towards the person who left the door open?

Eliminate the one/thing that keeps leaving the door open, and the thieves will stop entering.

As an artist myself, this is the problem, how does an artist prevent the illegal uploading/sharing of their material or to use your example 'close the door'?

The only way I can think of and it is kind of fair, is through crowdfunding projects. Then, you can assure that you will have a minimum investment return. Anything else you can sell after that is profit. But then, you shouldn't care about other people downloading it for free, even though it is still wrong.

Thanks Thiago that's an interesting idea, so once an artist has covered their costs they don't need to care about it.

NoOneIsHere wrote:

wintersdawn wrote:

Mortal wrote:

NoOneIsHere wrote:I am not going to slam an artist for getting peowed about his brand new release being pirated before the ink on the cover art even dries...

They can get "peowed" all they want. That's fine.

But they should make sure their frustrations are aimed in the right direction.

If there is a door left open for a thief to enter through, why then would you get mad only at the thief??

Wouldn't it be wise to focus your attention towards the person who left the door open?

Eliminate the one/thing that keeps leaving the door open, and the thieves will stop entering.

As an artist myself, this is the problem, how does an artist prevent the illegal uploading/sharing of their material or to use your example 'close the door'?

DRM
Other forms of encryption to prevent copying
Lawsuits
Shutting down sites
Educating people on the problem

That's just a small sample of methods that they have tried to use to combat it

Thanks for the ideas, much appreciated.

Mortal wrote:

Thiago-Brazil wrote:

Mortal wrote:

Thiago-Brazil wrote:You are changing the subject of the discussion. It is about piracy and whether you are against it or not. This is not about how grateful people are.

Well...anytime a person starts talking about "not getting paid", and "working for free"....when you know it isn't true...

...a person's gratitude does come into question.

Some of the folks who talk about "not getting paid" and "working for free" would lead some to believe that they have not received one single penny for their efforts.

I think it's ridiculous.

Then, let me paraphrase it: "not getting properly paid." Even though the band or artist in question doesn't get paid at all for the customer that download their album.

I mean, if I download the album, then Worldview won't get paid for what I am getting.
After all, what do you think about downloading in the internet? Do you think it is fair to simply download for free someone's work without permission? How do you see this question as a christian? Or as a citizen?

How do I see this issue as a Christian?

Well...first of all...I think a person's intent has alot to do with it.

If you are not willing to look at a person's intent, then how are you handling this situation as a Christian?

There are many different reason why a person may want to download.

....and theft is not always the reason.

I can only see a reason why: Taking advantage to another person effort. What is basically my definition of theft.

What another reason can you mention?

Mortal wrote:

Fundy wrote:When it comes to movies that are on TV.  If I record them I watch them.  If I like them enough then I go and buy them.

Some folks actually prefer to record shows/movies from TV rather than buying the DVD versions.

When recording from TV, you get the commercial breaks too...and a few years down the road those TV recordings will be more nostalgic than the commercial free DVD version.

Ah, but with the DVD you get audio commentary, deleted scenes, alternate endings, alternate language tracks, music videos, and other neat stuff. As for the commercials, i use youtube to watch old commercials.