Re: ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

by Black Rider Sun May 31, 2015 10:48 am

We are told to obey the laws of the land unless it goes against God's law.

by pathogenics_cloned_twin83 Sun May 31, 2015 11:13 am

by pathogenics_cloned_twin83 Sun May 31, 2015 11:16 am

lhversaw wrote:
pathogenics_cloned_twin83 wrote:Does this 'scumbag' label extend to downloading stuff stuff thats out of print and selling for major bucks on Ebay/Amazon?

I don't download in print music, especially new releases.
Even if it is out of print and sells for major bucks on ebay it is still illegal to download them and therefore wrong. I am not perfect I used to do this as well but I can honestly say that I no longer do and haven't for MANY years now. If it is out of print and I can't afford the ebay price then I am not supposed to have it. Plain and simple there are people who seem to think they have a right to just have everything they want even if they can't afford it but that is simply not the case. There are MANY HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS of albums I want but I can't afford all of them so I simply have to do without. I am not a hard case by no means and I have over a thousand albums so really in the grand scope of things I don't NEED any more it is a want and not a need or a right. People who try to justify their actions by stating that it is out of print and too expensive or I don't have enough money so that is why they do it is just that an EXCUSE TO JUSTIFY THEIR WRONGS.

I can understand George's frustration as I have been on BOTH sides of the issue.

Well then I have been severely chastised and shown the error of my ways. Forgive me of my many iniquities. Suspect

by Follower of Jesus Sun May 31, 2015 11:46 am

George, I was certainly not suggesting that stealing music through piracy and/or illegal downloading is okay. The people that have known me on this forum for any length of time will tell you that I am one of the loudest voices here against this practice. However it was the last sentence in your original post that left a very bad taste in my mouth. You don't get to hang labels like that on people unless the Scriptures do too. The truth is we are all scumbags. We're all sinners. And just because this is a sin that you don't commit doesn't entitle you to call those that still do commit this sin scumbags. Because I'm sure that you are guilty of other sin in your life that I'm not guilty of. But I don't get to call you a scumbag because you struggle with that either. That was my point.

by lhversaw Sun May 31, 2015 12:59 pm

Tobi Elektrik wrote:
lhversaw wrote:
pathogenics_cloned_twin83 wrote:Does this 'scumbag' label extend to downloading stuff stuff thats out of print and selling for major bucks on Ebay/Amazon?
Even if it is out of print and sells for major bucks on ebay it is still illegal to download them and therefore wrong. People who try to justify their actions by stating that it is out of print and too expensive or I don't have enough money so that is why they do it is just that an EXCUSE TO JUSTIFY THEIR WRONGS.

So you say it is wrong just because a law says it is wrong?

No I say it is wrong because the bible says stealing is wrong and Illegal Downloading is stealing therefore it is Wrong.
Now if the download is FROM the BAND OR LABEL and AUTHORIZED BY THE BAND OR LABEL that is a different story.

by Guest Sun May 31, 2015 1:23 pm

Do you guys think the same way about VCRs/DVRs?

If I record something on my VCR/DVR that I could have easily purchased, is that stealing?

If I record the entire Seinfeld series from TV instead of purchasing the DVD set, have I stole the entire Seinfeld series?

by WildWorld Sun May 31, 2015 1:39 pm

As for the "i download to preview the album" argument, that doesnt really hold up in the age of spotify/youtube.

by Fundy Sun May 31, 2015 1:48 pm

When it comes to music I listen to a few tracks on youtube or clips on amazon and then if I like it I buy it.

When it comes to movies that are on TV. If I record them I watch them. If I like them enough then I go and buy them.

by Guest Sun May 31, 2015 2:00 pm

Fundy wrote:When it comes to movies that are on TV. If I record them I watch them. If I like them enough then I go and buy them.

Some folks actually prefer to record shows/movies from TV rather than buying the DVD versions.

When recording from TV, you get the commercial breaks too...and a few years down the road those TV recordings will be more nostalgic than the commercial free DVD version.

by Guest Sun May 31, 2015 2:18 pm

WildWorld wrote:As for the "i download to preview the album" argument, that doesnt really hold up in the age of spotify/youtube.

QFT.

by Guest Sun May 31, 2015 2:29 pm

WildWorld wrote:As for the "i download to preview the album" argument, that doesnt really hold up in the age of spotify/youtube.

Considering the fact that stuff gets pulled and taken off of Youtube all the time, I can understand why someone would "download to preview". They want to check it out before it gets taken down.

by KaramKaram Sun May 31, 2015 2:58 pm

The iPod classic it's no more available through Apple but it is at eBay or Amazon at a ridiculous high price, is it ok if I take it off of somewhere/someone else because I can't afford the high price of the desired item?

by Tobi Elektrik Sun May 31, 2015 3:13 pm

lhversaw wrote:
Tobi Elektrik wrote:
lhversaw wrote:
pathogenics_cloned_twin83 wrote:Does this 'scumbag' label extend to downloading stuff stuff thats out of print and selling for major bucks on Ebay/Amazon?
Even if it is out of print and sells for major bucks on ebay it is still illegal to download them and therefore wrong. People who try to justify their actions by stating that it is out of print and too expensive or I don't have enough money so that is why they do it is just that an EXCUSE TO JUSTIFY THEIR WRONGS.

So you say it is wrong just because a law says it is wrong?
No I say it is wrong because the bible says stealing is wrong and Illegal Downloading is stealing therefore it is Wrong.

The law does not define illegal downloads as stealing. Cause a download is a copy - you don't take a physical product without paying for it. It's a copyright infringement. And I can't remember that I ever read something in the bible about copyright infringements.
So you ARE saying it is wrong just because the law says it is wrong.

Good laws are made for a purpose. Not just to follow them. And IMO laws need be broken if they contradict their original purpose. Those copyright laws are made to protect artists from being exploited by people who use their art but don't WANT to pay or even want to make money with it. And in this case I would totally agree: they doing harm to the artist - it has the same effect like stealing.

But if somebody CAN'T pay and is making the copy just for his own it has no effect on the artist. Without the illegal download / copy not a single cent more would go to the artist. So I don't see why this should be wrong from a moral perspective.

That's why I think it's stupid to call illegal downloads "stealing" or "wrong" in general.

The issue is more about the hearts of the people. Do they give a darn about the artists and the time and money that's involved? Or do they love the music, respect the artists but can't buy any album they would like to have?

by Tobi Elektrik Sun May 31, 2015 3:20 pm

WildWorld wrote:As for the "i download to preview the album" argument, that doesnt really hold up in the age of spotify/youtube.

It depends on your listening habits. I don't have much time to listen to music at home or at the office. The most time I'm listening to music is when I drive to work or home.
That's why I'm downloading albums and put them on my smartphone. Only then I can really judge if I like an album and want to pay for it.

by lhversaw Sun May 31, 2015 3:39 pm

Tobi Elektrik wrote:
lhversaw wrote:
Tobi Elektrik wrote:
lhversaw wrote:
pathogenics_cloned_twin83 wrote:Does this 'scumbag' label extend to downloading stuff stuff thats out of print and selling for major bucks on Ebay/Amazon?
Even if it is out of print and sells for major bucks on ebay it is still illegal to download them and therefore wrong. People who try to justify their actions by stating that it is out of print and too expensive or I don't have enough money so that is why they do it is just that an EXCUSE TO JUSTIFY THEIR WRONGS.

So you say it is wrong just because a law says it is wrong?
No I say it is wrong because the bible says stealing is wrong and Illegal Downloading is stealing therefore it is Wrong.

The law does not define illegal downloads as stealing. Cause a download is a copy - you don't take a physical product without paying for it. It's a copyright infringement. And I can't remember that I ever read something in the bible about copyright infringements.
So you ARE saying it is wrong just because the law says it is wrong.

Good laws are made for a purpose. Not just to follow them. And IMO laws need be broken if they contradict their original purpose. Those copyright laws are made to protect artists from being exploited by people who use their art but don't WANT to pay or even want to make money with it. And in this case I would totally agree: they doing harm to the artist - it has the same effect like stealing.

But if somebody CAN'T pay and is making the copy just for his own it has no effect on the artist. Without the illegal download / copy not a single cent more would go to the artist. So I don't see why this should be wrong from a moral perspective.

That's why I think it's stupid to call illegal downloads "stealing" or "wrong" in general.

The issue is more about the hearts of the people. Do they give a darn about the artists and the time and money that's involved? Or do they love the music, respect the artists but can't buy any album they would like to have?

Would you do your job for FREE without pay? That is what illegal downloading is doing allowing the downloader to take something that is work done by someone else and not pay for it. So by your standard you should be willing to do your job for FREE. Right?

by Guest Sun May 31, 2015 3:49 pm

lhversaw wrote:Would you do your job for FREE without pay? That is what illegal downloading is doing allowing the downloader to take something that is work done by someone else and not pay for it. So by your standard you should be willing to do your job for FREE. Right?

A person who is not willing to do their job for free sometimes is a person who does not really enjoy their job....or serving people.

I'm not saying that artists should work for free to accommodate illegal downloaders...

I'm just saying that your argument doesn't make any sense.

I have volunteered for many "jobs", and never got paid one dime.

by Tobi Elektrik Sun May 31, 2015 5:17 pm

lhversaw wrote:

Would you do your job for FREE without pay? That is what illegal downloading is doing allowing the downloader to take something that is work done by someone else and not pay for it. So by your standard you should be willing to do your job for FREE. Right?

I already worked for people who didn't pay me or just small wages.
As a musician I played a lot of shows but got payed (a few bucks) maybe 1 out of 20 times.
I'm grateful about every payment but if people don't have the money I help for free whenever I can.

On the other hand I'm not happy when people who have enough money don't pay me cause they are greedy.

That's why I'm more concerned about some people's mentality than about any rules or laws which classify something as illegal even it's doing no harm to anybody.

by Guest Sun May 31, 2015 6:51 pm

At my job, sometimes I will spend hours designing a project that a customer wants.

After I take all that time to design the project, and they approve the project, I will move forward and start making the project for them.

I have designed and completed several projects where the customer just bailed out on me.

Now...is it going to do me any good to whine and complain and call these customers "scumbags"?

No, it wouldn't....because that would make me a "scumbag" too.

by Black Rider Sun May 31, 2015 7:11 pm

But if somebody CAN'T pay and is making the copy just for his own it has no effect on the artist. Without the illegal download / copy not a single cent more would go to the artist. So I don't see why this should be wrong from a moral perspective.

What? It affects the artist because his intellectual property is now being taken when it should've been paid for. You could argue this way for stealing physical property from a store or other people, if you don't buy they wouldn't get money so just take the item. You know, Romans and Titus and 1 Peter all tell us to obey the governing authorities.

by Guest Sun May 31, 2015 7:21 pm

What about outdoor concerts?

If there is an outdoor concert, and I don't purchase a ticket to the concert....but instead I go the nearby park to enjoy the music...

Have I just stolen a concert ticket?

According to some people's logic here, I have.

Not only have I stolen a concert ticket, but I made those artists work for free.

by MegaNorm64 Sun May 31, 2015 7:55 pm

I usually only download when I have a cd that won't work on my computer. A lot of cds have that issue with PCs. It really sucks actually. My entire Testament Legacy cd won't be recognized by my computer at all so, I was forced to download the album online. I also have some cds that partially read and have tracks that do not work. These cds are faulty and if you find software that reads and converts the song into MP3, you will hear glitches in the songs. I was forced to download these songs online too. So, saying that, downloading MP3s illegally is sometimes a lifesaver. Otherwise, you're just tossing money out for what you already purchased. Remember, you can't return open cds.

by Soldier777 Sun May 31, 2015 8:13 pm

I would like to ad something else. I think "scumbag" is a strong word and shouldn't of been used. Also, someone mentioned that it was ok to download albums that are rare, out of print and are expensive and the bands don't get royalties. From what I see, we don't know that they don't get royalties and this isn't our call to make. Also, there are expensive OOP albums out there but it will be available at a decent price. I have found several expensive rare albums at a reasonable price because I waited.

by grandeped Sun May 31, 2015 9:53 pm

There has been a lot of research into illegal downloading. Most of it is eyeopening. Again and again the research has found that those that download illegally also buy the most illegal music by far. So these "scumbags" that download illegally are probably also a huge chunk of the people that buy your music legally.

Not that this justifies illegal downloading, but it is food for thought.

Additionally, once you get past the lies that the music industry publishes, you begin to find out that more people are spending more money on music than ever before in the history of music sales. The industry knows this but tries to smokescreen what is going on because most of these increases are going to avenues that are out of their control, like BandCamp or other Internet sales directly to musicians. Can't let your little busy worker bee bands know they could make more on their own than with you!

What this means is that going ballistic on illegal downloaders is a cheap excuse for lack of sales. It could be because there is more competition, or the market is just speaking that they don't like your music, or a hundred other reasons. But the truth of the matter is that there are more people spending more money on music, and even if they did illegally download it they are more likely to turn around and buy it legally than 1000 spotify users who will listen once, put 0.01 cents in your pocket, and never listen again.

None of this is to justify stealing - its just a hard look at what the numbers are.

You get 1000 people downloading your album illegally, a large chunk of those will turn around and bu something from you. You get 1000 people steaming your song on Spotify, and statistically speaking you will get a handful that buy the album and - what? - 10 cents for all those plays?

Not saying I like this or that I think it should be this way, its just what the research is finding is really going on. Surprise, surprise - the big record industry is lying to us about things.

by alldatndensum Sun May 31, 2015 10:05 pm

I think "scumbag" is a strong word and shouldn't of been used.

I couldn't agree more.

by Guest Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:05 am

Soldier777 wrote:I would like to ad something else. I think "scumbag" is a strong word and shouldn't of been used. Also, someone mentioned that it was ok to download albums that are rare, out of print and are expensive and the bands don't get royalties. From what I see, we don't know that they don't get royalties and this isn't our call to make. Also, there are expensive OOP albums out there but it will be available at a decent price. I have found several expensive rare albums at a reasonable price because I waited.

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