ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

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ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

Post by GeorgeReneOchoa on Sat May 30, 2015 7:31 pm

ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC.  Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet.  Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me.  If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.
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Post by MikeInFla on Sat May 30, 2015 8:21 pm

Amen George. I know Saint had a similar problem when Desperate Night was released digitally before the cd came out. I bought my tracks directly from Rich. The same day I saw the album all over the Internet. I emailed Rich the links and he did his best to get them taken down but I think piracy pretty much killed Desperate Night. That's why I recommend all artist release everything on vinyl only. Smile
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Post by Follower of Jesus on Sat May 30, 2015 8:48 pm

Sinners steal music. We're all scumbags. And I'm made of the grace of God even if I don't 'amen' to you. Don't hang that on people, George.
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Post by GeorgeReneOchoa on Sat May 30, 2015 8:54 pm

Let me get this straight.............Because you are a sinner "covered by the grace of God" it's somehow fine to take something that isn't yours.  Is that what you are saying?
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Re: ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

Post by Guest on Sat May 30, 2015 10:25 pm

I used to download music illegally (I never uploaded or shared though) .... Even though I still bought everything new that came out from bands I liked. I only downloaded stuff I knew I would never like enough to buy.

Like that rationalization there?

Yeah.... Didn't think so..

My conscience didn't either.

I gave up doing it and deleted everything I had.

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Post by bodachi on Sat May 30, 2015 10:56 pm

GeorgeReneOchoa wrote:Let me get this straight.............Because you are a sinner "covered by the grace of God" it's somehow fine to take something that isn't yours.  Is that what you are saying?
If I may be so bold as to speak for him:

He did NOT say or seem to imply that stealing was okay.

I believe he meant to say we are ALL "scumbags", but some of us chose the LORD's forgiveness.

Your reaction to folks' stealing your intellectual property is understandable, however.

And a delayed, if qualified, "amen" from this forgiven scumbag (I don't download music immorally)
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Post by Hardcore Christian on Sat May 30, 2015 11:16 pm

Follower of Jesus wrote:Sinners steal music. We're all scumbags. And I'm made of the grace of God even if I don't 'amen' to you. Don't hang that on people, George.
True dat 100%
GeorgeReneOchoa wrote:Let me get this straight.............Because you are a sinner "covered by the grace of God" it's somehow fine to take something that isn't yours.  Is that what you are saying?
Where did you get that, from that ???????????????????? face palm
Neal Morse Code wrote:Well, that escalated quickly.
Why yes it did lol!
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Post by lhversaw on Sat May 30, 2015 11:30 pm

Sadly MOST people who do it don't really care about the artist or anyone else involved in making the music.  They view it as helping the bands gain interest and fans.  I have dealt with several sites putting up illegal downloads for bands on my label and it is impossible to get them to take it down.  Most of them will out right block you if you even try and if they don't you get trashed for trying to make them take it down.  

And to be honest it is mostly the pressing companies that put it up in the first place.  I have seen several bands have their album on illegal downloading sites MONTHS before release and many of those didn't have digital releases at all.  The only people to have had those files to upload were the pressing plants, and I have had this happen to me several times, SO the ONLY way to really stop it is to buy the equipment to press it all yourself, which is so costly it isn't even worth it. I mean over $3000 for the replication/duplication machine and then the blank cd's and the software to create what is needed for the replication then the printer and high quality paper to print the booklet, tray etc.  So you pretty much have to have the pressing companies but you have to find one that WON'T do that to you and there are ONLY  a handful of those.
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Re: ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

Post by Guest on Sun May 31, 2015 12:15 am

NoOneIsHere wrote:I used to download music illegally (I never uploaded or shared though) .... Even though I still bought everything new that came out from bands I liked. I only downloaded stuff I knew I would never like enough to buy.

Like that rationalization there?

Yeah.... Didn't think so..

My conscience didn't either.

I gave up doing it and deleted everything I had.
Good man.  Me too, sir.  alien

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Post by zelote on Sun May 31, 2015 12:29 am

I try to buy just originals ones, but some albums from 80 bands are so expensive nowdays.. I have several tapes from 80 band and i feel fine with them.  And  i have some copies of some titles almost imposible to get these days. 

I have some Mp3 files that i bought from Tunes, but i hate when this files not come with pdf lyrics.... 

For example i have the last Mortification Cd that i bought by Rowe Production in Mp3 files, but i am not be able to find the lyrics in any place.. is just bored me.

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Post by pathogenics_cloned_twin83 on Sun May 31, 2015 12:30 am

Does this 'scumbag' label extend to downloading stuff stuff thats out of print and selling for major bucks on Ebay/Amazon?

I don't download in print music, especially new releases.
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Re: ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

Post by eatbugs on Sun May 31, 2015 1:17 am

Like bodachi I'll give you a "qualified Amen."  I don't download illegally.  IPR violations are sin and need to be repented of.  However, when I sin I don't want to be called "no true Christian" and neither should they.

By the way George, I just got The Chosen Few in the mail and listened to it for the first time today and it is awesome!

About OOP stuff, I absolutely get that there is no loss of revenue for the band or label when music is out of print.  But let's say hypothetically you downloaded Recon - Behind Enemy Lines with that logic.  When it is reissued later this year (that's still the plan right?), will you buy it since it is in print?  What about Recon - Live at Cornerstone?  If you had it could you tell George with a clean conscience you got it from a download site?  Don't answer me.  This is HYPOTHETICAL (I have no idea what's in your music collection) and NOT an accusation!  Just a question!  It's between you, God, and the copyright holders.  It's something to think about and something I personally decided I don't want to deal with - I just try to find the OOP stuff at reasonable prices or not get it.

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Re: ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

Post by Guest on Sun May 31, 2015 2:31 am

Recon BHE is available at Google Play.  So it's still out there.  Bought it legally.

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Post by Tobi Elektrik on Sun May 31, 2015 5:20 am

I'm a Scumbag.
So... no "Amen" here.

Would be interested to hear what's the reason for the tantrum? Personal experiences as an artist?

I don't think it helps to judge this topic in such a generalizing manner. Laws are good but they aren't the perfect guideline in every situation to really judge if something's good or bad.
Like smuggling bibles into countries were it's forbidden to bring such things into. Would you call those people scumbags too because they break the law while they try to spread the word?
So the important question is: what's the intention of those "scumbags"?

SCUMBAGS Type I: Do they want to enjoy music they can't effort? Do they want to listen to stuff that's OOP and is ridiculously overpriced at ebay or amazon? Do they want to listen to an album first to really judge about it's quality before paying 15 bucks?

SCUMBAGS Type II: Do they want to enjoy music but don't want to pay? Would they pay for albums if there wouldn't be illegal downloads available?

I'm downloading TONS of music but I still love to pay for good albums. And I still do. So... some scumbags actually seem to respect the artists and give their hard earned money to them and the labels.
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Post by Grindboy on Sun May 31, 2015 7:24 am

After 20 years of this argument, I'm super sure that we're going to finally all agree this time!

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Post by Thiago-Brazil on Sun May 31, 2015 7:33 am

Well, I don't download music ilegally. Not only because I am christian, but also because the system is unsustainable. How do you expect your favorite bands to release new material if you don't buy it?
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Post by Soldier777 on Sun May 31, 2015 7:55 am

I would have to agree. I don't download for the following reasons:

1. Your are risking downloading a virus on to your hardware/software
2. It is stealing from the artist  and all who was involved in making the music.
3. I like having the actual CD and loading it on my computer. I'm a collector when it comes to music and other things.
4. Downloads may not have as good sound quality as CD or other legal pay per song/album sources like iTunes.

With that said, if you own a format like a cassette and the CD is out of print or is not available anywhere to pay for the download then I would think it is ok to download that album if you have searched all the sources to find the album.
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Re: ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

Post by Candlemass on Sun May 31, 2015 8:19 am

Tobi Elektrik wrote:I'm a Scumbag.
So... no "Amen" here.

Would be interested to hear what's the reason for the tantrum? Personal experiences as an artist?

I don't think it helps to judge this topic in such a generalizing manner. Laws are good but they aren't the perfect guideline in every situation to really judge if something's good or bad.
Like smuggling bibles into countries were it's forbidden to bring such things into. Would you call those people scumbags too because they break the law while they try to spread the word?
So the important question is: what's the intention of those "scumbags"?

SCUMBAGS Type I: Do they want to enjoy music they can't effort? Do they want to listen to stuff that's OOP and is ridiculously overpriced at ebay or amazon? Do they want to listen to an album first to really judge about it's quality before paying 15 bucks?

SCUMBAGS Type II: Do they want to enjoy music but don't want to pay? Would they pay for albums if there wouldn't be illegal downloads available?

I'm downloading TONS of music but I still love to pay for good albums. And I still do. So... some scumbags actually seem to respect the artists and give their hard earned money to them and the labels.

That analogy doesn't hold water, very doubtful anyone is stealing music to "spread the Word!" Laughing
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Post by elparanorman on Sun May 31, 2015 8:50 am

Got the feeling this is another H&M post.
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Post by Tobi Elektrik on Sun May 31, 2015 9:40 am

This wasn't a direct analogy. It was just one of a million possible examples of how laws can totally be against your individual conviction regarding what is "good" or "bad".

In this case determining "stealing" just by law can lead to some false conclusions IMO.
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Post by lhversaw on Sun May 31, 2015 9:51 am

pathogenics_cloned_twin83 wrote:Does this 'scumbag' label extend to downloading stuff stuff thats out of print and selling for major bucks on Ebay/Amazon?

I don't download in print music, especially new releases.
Even if it is out of print and sells for major bucks on ebay it is still illegal to download them and therefore wrong.  I am not perfect I used to do this as well but I can honestly say that I no longer do and haven't for MANY years now.  If it is out of print and I can't afford the ebay price then I am not supposed to have it.  Plain and simple there are people who seem to think they have a right to just have everything they want even if they can't afford it but that is simply not the case.  There are MANY HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS of albums I want but I can't afford all of them so I simply have to do without.  I am not a hard case by no means and I have over a thousand albums so really in the grand scope of things I don't NEED any more it is a want and not a need or a right.  People who try to justify their actions by stating that it is out of print and too expensive or I don't have enough money so that is why they do it is just that an EXCUSE TO JUSTIFY THEIR WRONGS.

I can understand George's frustration as I have been on BOTH sides of the issue.
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Post by lhversaw on Sun May 31, 2015 9:52 am

ParaNormaN wrote:Got the feeling this is another H&M post.
No I don't believe that I just think it is a frustrated artist who has had his stuff put up for illegal download.
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Post by Tobi Elektrik on Sun May 31, 2015 10:40 am

lhversaw wrote:
pathogenics_cloned_twin83 wrote:Does this 'scumbag' label extend to downloading stuff stuff thats out of print and selling for major bucks on Ebay/Amazon?
Even if it is out of print and sells for major bucks on ebay it is still illegal to download them and therefore wrong. People who try to justify their actions by stating that it is out of print and too expensive or I don't have enough money so that is why they do it is just that an EXCUSE TO JUSTIFY THEIR WRONGS.

So you say it is wrong just because a law says it is wrong?
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Post by Black Rider on Sun May 31, 2015 10:47 am

It the product is for sale and you dl it illegally, it's stealing. I can't actually think of reason to steal because laws aren't the best way to determine stealing. Is there really some fuzziness there?
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Post by Black Rider on Sun May 31, 2015 10:48 am

We are told to obey the laws of the land unless it goes against God's law.
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Post by pathogenics_cloned_twin83 on Sun May 31, 2015 11:13 am

Shocked


Last edited by pathogenics_cloned_twin83 on Sun May 31, 2015 11:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by pathogenics_cloned_twin83 on Sun May 31, 2015 11:16 am

lhversaw wrote:
pathogenics_cloned_twin83 wrote:Does this 'scumbag' label extend to downloading stuff stuff thats out of print and selling for major bucks on Ebay/Amazon?

I don't download in print music, especially new releases.
Even if it is out of print and sells for major bucks on ebay it is still illegal to download them and therefore wrong.  I am not perfect I used to do this as well but I can honestly say that I no longer do and haven't for MANY years now.  If it is out of print and I can't afford the ebay price then I am not supposed to have it.  Plain and simple there are people who seem to think they have a right to just have everything they want even if they can't afford it but that is simply not the case.  There are MANY HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS of albums I want but I can't afford all of them so I simply have to do without.  I am not a hard case by no means and I have over a thousand albums so really in the grand scope of things I don't NEED any more it is a want and not a need or a right.  People who try to justify their actions by stating that it is out of print and too expensive or I don't have enough money so that is why they do it is just that an EXCUSE TO JUSTIFY THEIR WRONGS.

I can understand George's frustration as I have been on BOTH sides of the issue.

Well then I have been severely chastised and shown the error of my ways. Forgive me of my many iniquities.  Suspect
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Post by Follower of Jesus on Sun May 31, 2015 11:46 am

George, I was certainly not suggesting that stealing music through piracy and/or illegal downloading is okay. The people that have known me on this forum for any length of time will tell you that I am one of the loudest voices here against this practice. However it was the last sentence in your original post that left a very bad taste in my mouth. You don't get to hang labels like that on people unless the Scriptures do too. The truth is we are all scumbags. We're all sinners. And just because this is a sin that you don't commit doesn't entitle you to call those that still do commit this sin scumbags. Because I'm sure that you are guilty of other sin in your life that I'm not guilty of. But I don't get to call you a scumbag because you struggle with that either. That was my point.
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Post by lhversaw on Sun May 31, 2015 12:59 pm

Tobi Elektrik wrote:
lhversaw wrote:
pathogenics_cloned_twin83 wrote:Does this 'scumbag' label extend to downloading stuff stuff thats out of print and selling for major bucks on Ebay/Amazon?
Even if it is out of print and sells for major bucks on ebay it is still illegal to download them and therefore wrong. People who try to justify their actions by stating that it is out of print and too expensive or I don't have enough money so that is why they do it is just that an EXCUSE TO JUSTIFY THEIR WRONGS.

So you say it is wrong just because a law says it is wrong?
No I say it is wrong because the bible says stealing is wrong and Illegal Downloading is stealing therefore it is Wrong.
Now if the download is FROM the BAND OR LABEL and AUTHORIZED BY THE BAND OR LABEL that is a different story.
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Post by Guest on Sun May 31, 2015 1:23 pm

Do you guys think the same way about VCRs/DVRs?

If I record something on my VCR/DVR that I could have easily purchased, is that stealing?

If I record the entire Seinfeld series from TV instead of purchasing the DVD set, have I stole the entire Seinfeld series?

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Post by WildWorld on Sun May 31, 2015 1:39 pm

As for the "i download to preview the album" argument, that doesnt really hold up in the age of spotify/youtube.

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Post by Fundy on Sun May 31, 2015 1:48 pm

When it comes to music I listen to a few tracks on youtube or clips on amazon and then if I like it I buy it.

When it comes to movies that are on TV.  If I record them I watch them.  If I like them enough then I go and buy them.
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Re: ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

Post by Guest on Sun May 31, 2015 2:00 pm

Fundy wrote:When it comes to movies that are on TV.  If I record them I watch them.  If I like them enough then I go and buy them.


Some folks actually prefer to record shows/movies from TV rather than buying the DVD versions.

When recording from TV, you get the commercial breaks too...and a few years down the road those TV recordings will be more nostalgic than the commercial free DVD version.

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Re: ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

Post by Guest on Sun May 31, 2015 2:18 pm

WildWorld wrote:As for the "i download to preview the album" argument, that doesnt really hold up in the age of spotify/youtube.
QFT.  Cool

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Re: ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

Post by Guest on Sun May 31, 2015 2:29 pm

WildWorld wrote:As for the "i download to preview the album" argument, that doesnt really hold up in the age of spotify/youtube.

Considering the fact that stuff gets pulled and taken off of Youtube all the time, I can understand why someone would "download to preview". They want to check it out before it gets taken down.

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Re: ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

Post by KaramKaram on Sun May 31, 2015 2:58 pm

The iPod classic it's no more available through Apple but it is at eBay or Amazon at a ridiculous high price, is it ok if I take it off of somewhere/someone else because I can't afford the high price of the desired item?

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Re: ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

Post by Tobi Elektrik on Sun May 31, 2015 3:13 pm

lhversaw wrote:
Tobi Elektrik wrote:
lhversaw wrote:
pathogenics_cloned_twin83 wrote:Does this 'scumbag' label extend to downloading stuff stuff thats out of print and selling for major bucks on Ebay/Amazon?
Even if it is out of print and sells for major bucks on ebay it is still illegal to download them and therefore wrong. People who try to justify their actions by stating that it is out of print and too expensive or I don't have enough money so that is why they do it is just that an EXCUSE TO JUSTIFY THEIR WRONGS.

So you say it is wrong just because a law says it is wrong?
No I say it is wrong because the bible says stealing is wrong and Illegal Downloading is stealing therefore it is Wrong.

The law does not define illegal downloads as stealing. Cause a download is a copy - you don't take a physical product without paying for it. It's a copyright infringement. And I can't remember that I ever read something in the bible about copyright infringements.
So you ARE saying it is wrong just because the law says it is wrong.

Good laws are made for a purpose. Not just to follow them. And IMO laws need be broken if they contradict their original purpose. Those copyright laws are made to protect artists from being exploited by people who use their art but don't WANT to pay or even want to make money with it. And in this case I would totally agree: they doing harm to the artist - it has the same effect like stealing.

But if somebody CAN'T pay and is making the copy just for his own it has no effect on the artist. Without the illegal download / copy not a single cent more would go to the artist. So I don't see why this should be wrong from a moral perspective.

That's why I think it's stupid to call illegal downloads "stealing" or "wrong" in general.

The issue is more about the hearts of the people. Do they give a darn about the artists and the time and money that's involved? Or do they love the music, respect the artists but can't buy any album they would like to have?
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Re: ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

Post by Tobi Elektrik on Sun May 31, 2015 3:20 pm

WildWorld wrote:As for the "i download to preview the album" argument, that doesnt really hold up in the age of spotify/youtube.

It depends on your listening habits. I don't have much time to listen to music at home or at the office. The most time I'm listening to music is when I drive to work or home.
That's why I'm downloading albums and put them on my smartphone. Only then I can really judge if I like an album and want to pay for it.
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Re: ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

Post by lhversaw on Sun May 31, 2015 3:39 pm

Tobi Elektrik wrote:
lhversaw wrote:
Tobi Elektrik wrote:
lhversaw wrote:
pathogenics_cloned_twin83 wrote:Does this 'scumbag' label extend to downloading stuff stuff thats out of print and selling for major bucks on Ebay/Amazon?
Even if it is out of print and sells for major bucks on ebay it is still illegal to download them and therefore wrong. People who try to justify their actions by stating that it is out of print and too expensive or I don't have enough money so that is why they do it is just that an EXCUSE TO JUSTIFY THEIR WRONGS.

So you say it is wrong just because a law says it is wrong?
No I say it is wrong because the bible says stealing is wrong and Illegal Downloading is stealing therefore it is Wrong.

The law does not define illegal downloads as stealing. Cause a download is a copy - you don't take a physical product without paying for it. It's a copyright infringement. And I can't remember that I ever read something in the bible about copyright infringements.
So you ARE saying it is wrong just because the law says it is wrong.

Good laws are made for a purpose. Not just to follow them. And IMO laws need be broken if they contradict their original purpose. Those copyright laws are made to protect artists from being exploited by people who use their art but don't WANT to pay or even want to make money with it. And in this case I would totally agree: they doing harm to the artist - it has the same effect like stealing.

But if somebody CAN'T pay and is making the copy just for his own it has no effect on the artist. Without the illegal download / copy not a single cent more would go to the artist. So I don't see why this should be wrong from a moral perspective.

That's why I think it's stupid to call illegal downloads "stealing" or "wrong" in general.

The issue is more about the hearts of the people. Do they give a darn about the artists and the time and money that's involved? Or do they love the music, respect the artists but can't buy any album they would like to have?
Would you do your job for FREE without pay?  That is what illegal downloading is doing allowing the downloader to take something that is work done by someone else and not pay for it.  So by your standard you should be willing to do your job for FREE. Right?
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Re: ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

Post by Guest on Sun May 31, 2015 3:49 pm

lhversaw wrote:Would you do your job for FREE without pay?  That is what illegal downloading is doing allowing the downloader to take something that is work done by someone else and not pay for it.  So by your standard you should be willing to do your job for FREE. Right?

A person who is not willing to do their job for free sometimes is a person who does not really enjoy their job....or serving people.

I'm not saying that artists should work for free to accommodate illegal downloaders...

I'm just saying that your argument doesn't make any sense.

I have volunteered for many "jobs", and never got paid one dime.

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Re: ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

Post by Tobi Elektrik on Sun May 31, 2015 5:17 pm

lhversaw wrote:

Would you do your job for FREE without pay?  That is what illegal downloading is doing allowing the downloader to take something that is work done by someone else and not pay for it.  So by your standard you should be willing to do your job for FREE. Right?

I already worked for people who didn't pay me or just small wages.
As a musician I played a lot of shows but got payed (a few bucks) maybe 1 out of 20 times.
I'm grateful about every payment but if people don't have the money I help for free whenever I can.

On the other hand I'm not happy when people who have enough money don't pay me cause they are greedy.

That's why I'm more concerned about some people's mentality than about any rules or laws which classify something as illegal even it's doing no harm to anybody.
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Re: ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

Post by Guest on Sun May 31, 2015 6:51 pm

At my job, sometimes I will spend hours designing a project that a customer wants.

After I take all that time to design the project, and they approve the project, I will move forward and start making the project for them.

I have designed and completed several projects where the customer just bailed out on me.

Now...is it going to do me any good to whine and complain and call these customers "scumbags"?

No, it wouldn't....because that would make me a "scumbag" too.

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Re: ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

Post by Black Rider on Sun May 31, 2015 7:11 pm

But if somebody CAN'T pay and is making the copy just for his own it has no effect on the artist. Without the illegal download / copy not a single cent more would go to the artist. So I don't see why this should be wrong from a moral perspective.


What? It affects the artist because his intellectual property is now being taken when it should've been paid for. You could argue this way for stealing physical property from a store or other people, if you don't buy they wouldn't get money so just take the item. You know, Romans and Titus and 1 Peter all tell us to obey the governing authorities.
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Re: ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

Post by Guest on Sun May 31, 2015 7:21 pm

What about outdoor concerts?

If there is an outdoor concert, and I don't purchase a ticket to the concert....but instead I go the nearby park to enjoy the music...

Have I just stolen a concert ticket?

According to some people's logic here, I have.

Not only have I stolen a concert ticket, but I made those artists work for free.

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Post by elparanorman on Sun May 31, 2015 7:55 pm

I usually only download when I have a cd that won't work on my computer. A lot of cds have that issue with PCs. It really sucks actually. My entire Testament Legacy cd won't be recognized by my computer at all so, I was forced to download the album online. I also have some cds that partially read and have tracks that do not work. These cds are faulty and if you find software that reads and converts the song into MP3, you will hear glitches in the songs. I was forced to download these songs online too. So, saying that, downloading MP3s illegally is sometimes a lifesaver. Otherwise, you're just tossing money out for what you already purchased. Remember, you can't return open cds.
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Post by Soldier777 on Sun May 31, 2015 8:13 pm

I would like to ad something else. I think  "scumbag" is a strong word and shouldn't of been used. Also, someone mentioned that it was ok to download albums that are rare, out of print and are expensive and the bands don't get royalties. From what I see, we don't know that they don't get royalties and this isn't our call to make. Also, there are expensive OOP albums out there but it will be available at a decent price. I have found several expensive rare albums at a reasonable price because I waited.
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Re: ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

Post by grandeped on Sun May 31, 2015 9:53 pm

There has been a lot of research into illegal downloading. Most of it is eyeopening. Again and again the research has found that those that download illegally also buy the most illegal music by far. So these "scumbags" that download illegally are probably also a huge chunk of the people that buy your music legally.

Not that this justifies illegal downloading, but it is food for thought.

Additionally, once you get past the lies that the music industry publishes, you begin to find out that more people are spending more money on music than ever before in the history of music sales. The industry knows this but tries to smokescreen what is going on because most of these increases are going to avenues that are out of their control, like BandCamp or other Internet sales directly to musicians. Can't let your little busy worker bee bands know they could make more on their own than with you!

What this means is that going ballistic on illegal downloaders is a cheap excuse for lack of sales. It could be because there is more competition, or the market is just speaking that they don't like your music, or a hundred other reasons. But the truth of the matter is that there are more people spending more money on music, and even if they did illegally download it they are more likely to turn around and buy it legally than 1000 spotify users who will listen once, put 0.01 cents in your pocket, and never listen again.

None of this is to justify stealing - its just a hard look at what the numbers are.

You get 1000 people downloading your album illegally, a large chunk of those will turn around and bu something from you. You get 1000 people steaming your song on Spotify, and statistically speaking you will get a handful that buy the album and - what? - 10 cents for all those plays?

Not saying I like this or that I think it should be this way, its just what the research is finding is really going on. Surprise, surprise - the big record industry is lying to us about things.

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Re: ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

Post by alldatndensum on Sun May 31, 2015 10:05 pm

I think  "scumbag" is a strong word and shouldn't of been used.

I couldn't agree more.
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Re: ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

Post by Guest on Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:05 am

Soldier777 wrote:I would like to ad something else. I think  "scumbag" is a strong word and shouldn't of been used. Also, someone mentioned that it was ok to download albums that are rare, out of print and are expensive and the bands don't get royalties. From what I see, we don't know that they don't get royalties and this isn't our call to make. Also, there are expensive OOP albums out there but it will be available at a decent price. I have found several expensive rare albums at a reasonable price because I waited.
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