Symbols in Christian music...

There are some symbols on Christian albums and publications that use symbols that some considered to be pagan. An example would be the trinity interlocking rings on the Martin Simpson album which is also used on some translations of the Bible and is used by Led Zeppelin. What are your thoughts? Are some symbols redeemable just as other areas can have a redemptive use like music and other cultural norms? 

Some bands use upside down crosses as a mockery of the crucifixion but this was used as torture as well in the example of Peter. I kind of laugh when bands try to mock Christianity anyway as a side note. 

If this needs to be moved to the theology section that's fine but I was thinking of mostly album covers and music symbolism in general.

The first symbol you mentioned is the Triquetra.  It has long been used by the Celtic church to represent the Trinity.  The Zep posers decided to co-opt it into their occultic paradigm, thereby hijacking it.

This is my two cents on an issue that has a lot of personal taste involved.  I don't see many that I really find meaningful.  Good examples I can think of are obvious ones used by Christian bands in the mainstream market.  For instance, POD used the Trinity symbol you mentioned as part of the Southtown album cover.  Stryper also uses the cross in some of their art.  They are obvious symbols where being obvious might be of value.

Within the traditional Christian music circle, I can't think of anything that stuck out as profound or memorable.  Not that they couldn't be, but they would likely come across to me as corny rather than profound.

Deliverance uses the papal cross.


Living Sacrifice had that whateveritwas as part of their logo back in their death metal days.

Soldier777 wrote:There are some symbols on Christian albums and publications that use symbols that some considered to be pagan. An example would be the trinity interlocking rings on the Martin Simpson album which is also used on some translations of the Bible and is used by Led Zeppelin. What are your thoughts? Are some symbols redeemable just as other areas can have a redemptive use like music and other cultural norms? 

Some bands use upside down crosses as a mockery of the crucifixion but this was used as torture as well in the example of Peter. I kind of laugh when bands try to mock Christianity anyway as a side note. 

If this needs to be moved to the theology section that's fine but I was thinking of mostly album covers and music symbolism in general.

Well that's the thing about symbols. Many have been given multiple meanings over the years. In the context of music, the only meanings that matter are your interpretations and possibly those of the artist if you care. I generally don't care what symbols Christian artists use even if I'm not a big fan of the usage of some (like the Star of David). Secular artists' use of the inverted cross and the pentagram is cringe but it doesn't have any sort of power. It usually just signifies to me that it's probably not a band worth wasting my time on. There are cases where the usage is just in the sense of being "Metal" and is not actually conveying substantive anti-Christian messages so I try to bear that in mind as well.

Had a friend from many moons ago in what could be called very loosely, a doom death metal band. They were called Devout, and they had an upside down cross on the cover and justified it with some crap or another about Peter. Let's be honest, He just liked it coz it looked "cool" and "evil" like the secular bands.

Dustofyears wrote:Had a friend from many moons ago in what could be called very loosely, a doom death metal band. They were called Devout, and they had an upside down cross on the cover and justified it with some crap or another about Peter. Let's be honest, He just liked it coz it looked "cool" and "evil" like the secular bands.

Possession has both versions of the cross in their logo, and the Scourge & Fire EP has a giant upside down cross on the cover. At a first glance it looks like some basic black metal cover but you can see that cross is about to be eaten by a lion, so the symbolism there is pretty obvious. The title track of that EP makes it clear it's a Christian band, but they also have a King Diamond cover in that album (which is one of my favorite covers ever).

Airola wrote:

Dustofyears wrote:Had a friend from many moons ago in what could be called very loosely, a doom death metal band. They were called Devout, and they had an upside down cross on the cover and justified it with some crap or another about Peter. Let's be honest, He just liked it coz it looked "cool" and "evil" like the secular bands.

Possession has both versions of the cross in their logo, and the Scourge & Fire EP has a giant upside down cross on the cover. At a first glance it looks like some basic black metal cover but you can see that cross is about to be eaten by a lion, so the symbolism there is pretty obvious. The title track of that EP makes it clear it's a Christian band, but they also have a King Diamond cover in that album (which is one of my favorite covers ever).

yeah those bands, especially black metal bands, truth is they just wanna stick an upside down cross on their cover lolz, no that i care myself but it's quite hilarious.

"Why should the devil have all the good.." 

symbols

Symbols are just man-made emblems that we give meaning and importance to.  However, they don't hold power in and of themselves.  A cross, without the context of Jesus being crucified, has no power.  A pentegram has no power.  We humans use them, or misuse them, as representations of our beliefs rather ignorantly.

Do I think it is good to leave some symbols alone if you are a Christian artist?  Probably.  If a symbol has been used mostly in Satanic circles, then it probably wouldn't be the best way to market yourself to other Christians.  Likewise, a Satanic band probably would do well to stay away from the "Christian fish" symbol when it comes to marketing unless they are intentionally trying to be malicious with it and poking fun at Christ.

Where am I going with this?  We have freedom in Christ to choose what we do and how to express ourselves even with symbolism.  We should always stop and ask ourselves is this the best way to represent Jesus.  Would this draw people to Him or repel them?  Most of the time if I have to stop myself and ask if it is right, then the Holy Spirit is usually leading me to stay away from it.  This wisdom applies to all of our lives--not just the music we choose to listen to or make.

Symbols carry a lot of weight. As a collective people know Swastika Symbol, peace symbol, hands with horns raised, what an upside cross represents (south of heaven) what the rainbow now represents.
Symbols are much like memes or certain buzz words and phrases that can catch on and they can carry a lot of power if they catch fire. Old symbols often lose their meaning and become new symbols that carry a different message.

That's power.

Dustofyears wrote:Symbols carry a lot of weight. As a collective people know Swastika Symbol, peace symbol, hands with horns raised, what an upside cross represents (south of heaven) what the rainbow now represents.
Symbols are much like memes or certain buzz words and phrases that can catch on and they can carry a lot of power if they catch fire. Old symbols often lose their meaning and become new symbols that carry a different message.

That's power.

They only contain power because we surrender our own power to them.  Otherwise, they are just a representation of an idea.  If people stopped allowing manmade symbols to terrify them, then even things like swastikas or whatever have no power at all.  When we give things like that power, then we create a false god in our own image.

alldatndensum wrote:

Dustofyears wrote:Symbols carry a lot of weight. As a collective people know Swastika Symbol, peace symbol, hands with horns raised, what an upside cross represents (south of heaven) what the rainbow now represents.
Symbols are much like memes or certain buzz words and phrases that can catch on and they can carry a lot of power if they catch fire. Old symbols often lose their meaning and become new symbols that carry a different message.

That's power.

They only contain power because we surrender our own power to them.  Otherwise, they are just a representation of an idea.  If people stopped allowing manmade symbols to terrify them, then even things like swastikas or whatever have no power at all.  When we give things like that power, then we create a false god in our own image.

I mean, that sounds lovely and idealistic but that's just not reality. "If only' can be applied to many things.

That's what power is, giving something else power and free rent to live in one's mind and life. If or not anyone likes it, evertime you see a swastika you're going to be thinking of Nazi and Hitler. Everytime you see an upside down cross most people think of Satan and ant christ emblem. Everytime you see a rainbow, you are now going to think about Lgbtq, Or maybe you will think about Noah, because again, that is a symbol to your fatih. But more than likely that old symbol has become somehitng entirely new, and most people, if or not they consciously are aware of it, will think about lgbtq n these modern times.

Symbols and words have more power than people give them credit and repeated enough, it becomes the norm, a kind of  suggestion and "Hypnotizing power".

Dustofyears wrote:

alldatndensum wrote:

Dustofyears wrote:Symbols carry a lot of weight. As a collective people know Swastika Symbol, peace symbol, hands with horns raised, what an upside cross represents (south of heaven) what the rainbow now represents.
Symbols are much like memes or certain buzz words and phrases that can catch on and they can carry a lot of power if they catch fire. Old symbols often lose their meaning and become new symbols that carry a different message.

That's power.

They only contain power because we surrender our own power to them.  Otherwise, they are just a representation of an idea.  If people stopped allowing manmade symbols to terrify them, then even things like swastikas or whatever have no power at all.  When we give things like that power, then we create a false god in our own image.

I mean, that sounds lovely and idealistic but that's just not reality. "If only' can be applied to many things.

That's what power is, giving something else power and free rent to live in one's mind and life. If or not anyone likes it, evertime you see a swastika you're going to be thinking of Nazi and Hitler. Everytime you see an upside down cross most people think of Satan and ant christ emblem. Everytime you see a rainbow, you are now going to think about Lgbtq, Or maybe you will think about Noah, because again, that is a symbol to your fatih. But more than likely that old symbol has become somehitng entirely new, and most people, if or not they consciously are aware of it, will think about lgbtq n these modern times.

Symbols and words have more power than people give them credit and repeated enough, it becomes the norm, a kind of  suggestion and "Hypnotizing power".

That's all nice, but then you admit that these things artificially hold power over people if they have a "hypnotizing power".  If it does, then people are not thinking for themselves and are being led where someone else wants them to be led.

You also prove a point that they are meaningless.  If I can see a rainbow and thing of Noah and God's promise and someone else sees the emblem of the LGBTQ++ movement, then it shows that the meaning of symbols among people can be changed.  If they can be changed, then they have no control because they wield NO REAL POWER besides what people ascribe to it or allow it to have over them.  Besides, from the Christian standpoint, is the symbol of the rainbow what we cling to or God's promise?  Don't you think the rainbow was taken purposely just to get Christians upset so that the gay community could prove we hated them by the anger we show over the use of "our imagery"?

Holding onto the belief that symbols have power over us is the reason why places have had to take down nativities or remove the 10 Commandments from courthouses.  People got worked into a frenzy because of the power they gave to that.  We see people taking down Confederate statues now because of one meaning and people fighting to keep them because they are reminders of the past's mistakes.  Then, you have symbols that mean multiple things and only the squeakiest of wheels get to decide which view is right or wrong.  That's because they are man-made things and we give them control over our lives which, as I called it, is a false god of our own creation.

With that, I will bow out of this as I foresee it becoming an ongoing debate which I do not choose to continue.  I have said all I intend to.

I think symbols do have power to a degree, but it’s an invested, not an intrinsic power. That’s an important distinction.

Pethead wrote:I think symbols do have power to a degree, but it’s an invested, not an intrinsic power. That’s an important distinction.

Dang, so you're telling me that my "All I need is a little bit of coffee and a whole lot of J****" sign with a cross on it isn't gonna intrinsically reduce my time in purgatory? I need a new strategy...

CrimsonWarrior wrote:

Pethead wrote:I think symbols do have power to a degree, but it’s an invested, not an intrinsic power. That’s an important distinction.

Dang, so you're telling me that my "All I need is a little bit of coffee and a whole lot of J****" sign with a cross on it isn't gonna intrinsically reduce my time in purgatory? I need a new strategy...

Why did you censor Jesus? (I’m assuming that’s what the word is supposed to be)

alldatndensum wrote:

Dustofyears wrote:

alldatndensum wrote:

Dustofyears wrote:Symbols carry a lot of weight. As a collective people know Swastika Symbol, peace symbol, hands with horns raised, what an upside cross represents (south of heaven) what the rainbow now represents.
Symbols are much like memes or certain buzz words and phrases that can catch on and they can carry a lot of power if they catch fire. Old symbols often lose their meaning and become new symbols that carry a different message.

That's power.

They only contain power because we surrender our own power to them.  Otherwise, they are just a representation of an idea.  If people stopped allowing manmade symbols to terrify them, then even things like swastikas or whatever have no power at all.  When we give things like that power, then we create a false god in our own image.

I mean, that sounds lovely and idealistic but that's just not reality. "If only' can be applied to many things.

That's what power is, giving something else power and free rent to live in one's mind and life. If or not anyone likes it, evertime you see a swastika you're going to be thinking of Nazi and Hitler. Everytime you see an upside down cross most people think of Satan and ant christ emblem. Everytime you see a rainbow, you are now going to think about Lgbtq, Or maybe you will think about Noah, because again, that is a symbol to your fatih. But more than likely that old symbol has become somehitng entirely new, and most people, if or not they consciously are aware of it, will think about lgbtq n these modern times.

Symbols and words have more power than people give them credit and repeated enough, it becomes the norm, a kind of  suggestion and "Hypnotizing power".

That's all nice, but then you admit that these things artificially hold power over people if they have a "hypnotizing power".  If it does, then people are not thinking for themselves and are being led where someone else wants them to be led.

You also prove a point that they are meaningless.  If I can see a rainbow and thing of Noah and God's promise and someone else sees the emblem of the LGBTQ++ movement, then it shows that the meaning of symbols among people can be changed.  If they can be changed, then they have no control because they wield NO REAL POWER besides what people ascribe to it or allow it to have over them.  Besides, from the Christian standpoint, is the symbol of the rainbow what we cling to or God's promise?  Don't you think the rainbow was taken purposely just to get Christians upset so that the gay community could prove we hated them by the anger we show over the use of "our imagery"?

Holding onto the belief that symbols have power over us is the reason why places have had to take down nativities or remove the 10 Commandments from courthouses.  People got worked into a frenzy because of the power they gave to that.  We see people taking down Confederate statues now because of one meaning and people fighting to keep them because they are reminders of the past's mistakes.  Then, you have symbols that mean multiple things and only the squeakiest of wheels get to decide which view is right or wrong.  That's because they are man-made things and we give them control over our lives which, as I called it, is a false god of our own creation.

With that, I will bow out of this as I foresee it becoming an ongoing debate which I do not choose to continue.  I have said all I intend to.

That's wonderful. And I agree the rainbow has been stolen and used because it is common place in the world and seen as a symbol of many things to many people. So let's steal the rainbow so our message is everywhere. Again, that carries power.

We may as well say money has no power for it is no more than paper. Yet you wouldn't go  without it, because you are going to find it hard to live without that paper that has no power. Like money symbols are given power.

The cross is a symbol. Does that hold power. Well yes, to those that want it to hold power, it does. To those that don't, it still holds power, because everyone knows what a cross signifies. It carries weight behind it if or not anyone likes it.

Have a nice day.

You know the little fish symbols people have on their cars? I’m surprised that never has been used much (or at all) in Christian hard rock. 

I can imagine at least an alternative rock band using it on their cover artwork or having it incorporated in their logo.

TZ75 wrote:You know the little fish symbols people have on their cars? I’m surprised that never has been used much (or at all) in Christian hard rock. 

I could see at least an alternative rock band using it on their cover artwork or incorporated in their logo.

never though of that... that's true

seth wrote:Why did you censor Jesus? (I’m assuming that’s what the word is supposed to be)

I think that signs like the one I referenced are an example of misusing his name and referring to him in a generally irreverent way. In my joke about it, I didn't want to do the same thing.

TZ75 wrote:You know the little fish symbols people have on their cars? I’m surprised that never has been used much (or at all) in Christian rock. 

I could see at least an alternative rock band using it on their cover artwork or incorporated in their logo.

It would make a good symbol for an alt band. It just kind of fits somehow to my mind.

only album that comes to mind that utilizes it is Mortification. Sure there'll be others. Also the dove etc

Both Living Sacrifice and The Crucified have used a crown of thorns for artwork and t-shirts.

Dustofyears wrote:

TZ75 wrote:You know the little fish symbols people have on their cars? I’m surprised that never has been used much (or at all) in Christian rock. 

I could see at least an alternative rock band using it on their cover artwork or incorporated in their logo.

It would make a good symbol for an alt band. It just kind of fits somehow to my mind.

only album that comes to mind that utilizes it is Mortification. Sure there'll be others. Also the dove etc

Exactly!

I was thinking of those alt bands from the mid 90’s like Wish for Eden or one of those Ska type groups. None of those bands had a dark image that would conflict with using the fish symbol. 

By the time Steve Rowe may have used it, he was already far removed from his serious metal imagery days. You know most of the later albums were funny cartoonish drawings.

Since a shark is considered a fish, why couldn’t a metal band use a Great White shark as their fish symbol? 

I always thought Mako sharks look cool.