Re: ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

by Tobi Elektrik Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:29 am

Looks like this discussion leads to nowhere. But it has shown that there are different perspectives and there can be different reasons that lead to different judgements about whether copying music is right or wrong, good or bad, legal or illegal, stealing or not stealing. That's OK. People see things different and as long as they have good reasons to underpin their conviction it's GOOD. But following a law without questioning the intention of it isn't a good reason IMO. Whatever...

To go back to the original post once more: I'm not OK with George's first post. Calling somebody a scumback and "not a true Christian" without trying to discern good intentions and bad intentions of people is quite "unchristian" from a believers perspective and stupid from an artist's perspective.
The mentioned "scumbacks" can be firm believers and true supporters of musicians - there are "scumbacks" who pay for their music. So whatever the law says: George's judgement is not reflecting reality and Jesus' way to understand people - he looked into their hearts. And maybe THAT would help some people to understand that this is not a black/white issue we are talking about.

by bjorn agin Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:31 am

What I just read:

1) George was angry that the album that he and his band mates spent the better part of two years creating ended up on a pirate site(s). He vented. (and rightfully so)
2) A big ol' discussion about whether or not downloading music for free is right or wrong happened.

What I know:

A good number of us here have been waiting since the first Worldview songs came out nearly two years ago for this album to come out. Now that it has, we are lining up to buy it.

by Guest Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:24 am

Wildcat wrote:I agree that it's going a bit too far to suggest that anyone who pirates music isn't a real Christian. As much as I wish it wasn't so, Christians are still capable of sinning.

With that being said, I really don't see how you can justify it from a Christian ethical standpoint. Even if it isn't necessarily a physical product in this digital age, music is still a product for sale. I don't see how you can call taking it for yourself without paying anything other than stealing.

Since some people are arguing rather vehemently that things aren't so simple, could someone give an concrete example of a situation where you feel pirating is morally acceptable? Because you want it, but can't afford it isn't a legitimate reason in my opinion.

Best post in the whole thread IMO.

by Blake Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:21 am

The topic title has to be in the running for longest thread title though

by Galations6.7 Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:32 am

Wildcat wrote:I agree that it's going a bit too far to suggest that anyone who pirates music isn't a real Christian. As much as I wish it wasn't so, Christians are still capable of sinning.

With that being said, I really don't see how you can justify it from a Christian ethical standpoint. Even if it isn't necessarily a physical product in this digital age, music is still a product for sale. I don't see how you can call taking it for yourself without paying anything other than stealing.

Since some people are arguing rather vehemently that things aren't so simple, could someone give an concrete example of a situation where you feel pirating is morally acceptable? Because you want it, but can't afford it isn't a legitimate reason in my opinion.

Very well said

by Guest Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:51 am

Mortal wrote:
Thiago-Brazil wrote:Since some people are arguing rather vehemently that things aren't so simple, could someone give an concrete example of a situation where you feel pirating is morally acceptable?

Do you feel it's morally acceptable for people to film concerts and show them to people who never purchased a concert ticket?

I've seen lots of live "pirated" concert footage of various bands. Even Christian metal bands, and no one says a peep about that.

Wouldn't those folks be stealing and pirating concert tickets?

If you don't feel this is morally acceptable, then where is your outrage about this?

And where is your outrage about people eavesdropping on outdoor concerts without paying for admission?

I might take one more seriously if they were consistent in their arguments.

I am not the man who said what you quoted. These words are from Wildcat, I guess.

But as my name is in there, who told you that I approve people who film a entire concert and upload to youtube?
I don't watch it, that's why I have tons of DVDs at home. My collection includes three Petra DVDs (a band that I also managed to see live, traveling hundreds of miles), three Bloodgood DVDs, and two Stryper DVDs (a band that I saw live twice), among many other.

Just to make things clear, I am not rich to spend such amounts of money. I am actually a poor guy in a poor country that has becoming poorer each day. I just do what I do because it is right and because I love music.

The exception for my opinion is when the band itself post their entire concert onYoutube. E.G.: Mortification

by Guest Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:57 am

Mortal wrote:I think you may have missed the point of the article.

The article made two crucial points:

1) It is unfair to equate this with common theft (stealing)

2) It is unfair for a downloader to have to suffer the same penalty as one who actually DID commit common theft.

It's not as cut and dried as you think.

Equating this to stealing turns it into a criminal case.

Do you really think a situation like this is a criminal case?

That is what you imply when you equate it with stealing.

You say to forget about it morally, then you equate it with stealing. How can one forget about it morally when the assertion of stealing is still there?

Is there someone who is half theft? Half murderer? Half Sinner?

I guess not...So there is not common and uncommon theft. There is Theft!

I don't know what kind of penalty would be applicable, but is the penalty of a car robber be equal to a snicker robber? Probably not, though both are thieves, and that is what this discussion is all about.

by KaramKaram Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:24 am

Mortal wrote:
KaramKaram wrote:So, for you, downloading an album that you haven't paid for it is Ok? And if it is Ok for you can you tell why?

There are so many factors that could come in to play with that scenerio.....so I won't get into it.

Yeah, I bet that would be your answer.

by Guest Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:40 am

I am not the man who said what you quoted. This words are from Wildcat, I guess.

I do apologize for that. I'm sorry.

It was a mistake.

by d@v!d Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:43 am

GeorgeReneOchoa wrote:ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

Amen to the spirit of what you're saying, but dang dude... coming off a bit heavy there aren't we? I guess you're venting.

BTW, if it's any encouragement. I picked up TCF last week at Roxx. Great product! I bought it because I heard the preview songs and liked them. The system works. People who would steal a copy would never buy it even if weren't avail to easily steal. Don't be discouraged. Keep up the good work!

Peace..

by srguenther Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:07 am

When U2 released Songs of Innocence for free to iTunes users I got it in my account, but I'm an android person so I had no idea how to use icloud. I ended up downloading it from a torrent site. So I stole an album I already got for free.....

What I am saying g is that ic old be arrested or prosecuted for downloading illegally, even though I already owned a digital copy for free. Legally, when we purchase music we only have a right to the copy we purchase. If I buy it on cassette, I have no legal right to have it on disk or computer unless I make a copy myself (which is legal). So technically, what I did was illegal and Imoral even though my intent was not break the law, just to hear what I had been given.

by Guest Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:10 am

KaramKaram wrote:
Mortal wrote:
KaramKaram wrote:So, for you, downloading an album that you haven't paid for it is Ok? And if it is Ok for you can you tell why?

There are so many factors that could come in to play with that scenerio.....so I won't get into it.

Yeah, I bet that would be your answer.

If I'm not mistaken, you seem to be acting like there is something wrong with me giving that answer.

by Guest Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:19 am

But following a law without questioning the intention of it isn't a good reason IMO. Whatever...

Sometimes laws give certain folks an excuse to attack others.

Some folks try to act like they are law abiding citizens, but in reality, they are just using a law to attack others and over-punish them.

I don't even think the law defines this as stealing, or equates it with common theft since these type of cases are NOT criminal cases.

These type of cases are CIVIL cases....which means that's it's NOT stealing.

If the law doesn't even define it as stealing, then why are some folks so gung-ho about it being stealing?

It can only be because they are trying to go beyond the law and over-punish someone for it.

The article I posted above states that it is more like trespassing on someone's property rather than stealing.

I would agree with that.

But you see....suing someone for trespassing on your property isn't going to get you thousands of dollars....and I think that's why some folks are not even willing to see it this way.

I think that tells us what's really on their minds...$$$$

by Guest Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:46 am

Metal Blessing Radio wrote:The topic title has to be in the running for longest thread title though

ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of. - Page 5 9k=

by BobtheBerean Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:46 pm

The horse is still dead... face palm

by Guest Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:58 pm

srguenther wrote:When U2 released Songs of Innocence for free to iTunes users I got it in my account, but I'm an android person so I had no idea how to use icloud. I ended up downloading it from a torrent site. So I stole an album I already got for free.....

What I am saying g is that ic old be arrested or prosecuted for downloading illegally, even though I already owned a digital copy for free. Legally, when we purchase music we only have a right to the copy we purchase. If I buy it on cassette, I have no legal right to have it on disk or computer unless I make a copy myself (which is legal). So technically, what I did was illegal and Imoral even though my intent was not break the law, just to hear what I had been given.

It's funny you say that about iTunes.....

I am a staunch Android user..always will be.

But I wanted the Deluxe edition of Steve Taylor's Goliath....so I experimented with downloading iTunes.

Created an Apple/iTunes account, used the iTunes loaded up on my computer to purchase the Steve Taylor album. It automatically saved the non-DRM audio files to my computer (I wasn't aware that Apple had done away with DRM until then, since I hadn't used iTunes before). I also then discovered that iTunes lets you convert the files to the standard mp3 format (or your choice of several others). You can also have it convert it to a nice 320 kbps mp3, just by choosing custom. All at the click of a button. Those mp3 files are able to be copied over / moved to any device as many times as I want. AND...it was actually a better quality than those on Amazon and also came with the pdf booklet. Very impressive..and easy.

I wound up buying X-Sinner "Peace Treaty" also.

by KaramKaram Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:57 pm

Mortal wrote:
KaramKaram wrote:
Mortal wrote:
KaramKaram wrote:So, for you, downloading an album that you haven't paid for it is Ok? And if it is Ok for you can you tell why?

There are so many factors that could come in to play with that scenerio.....so I won't get into it.

Yeah, I bet that would be your answer.

If I'm not mistaken, you seem to be acting like there is something wrong with me giving that answer.

Wrong? No, but it was predictable

by lhversaw Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:58 pm

Tobi Elektrik wrote:Looks like this discussion leads to nowhere. But it has shown that there are different perspectives and there can be different reasons that lead to different judgements about whether copying music is right or wrong, good or bad, legal or illegal, stealing or not stealing. That's OK. People see things different and as long as they have good reasons to underpin their conviction it's GOOD. But following a law without questioning the intention of it isn't a good reason IMO. Whatever...

To go back to the original post once more: I'm not OK with George's first post. Calling somebody a scumback and "not a true Christian" without trying to discern good intentions and bad intentions of people is quite "unchristian" from a believers perspective and stupid from an artist's perspective.
The mentioned "scumbacks" can be firm believers and true supporters of musicians - there are "scumbacks" who pay for their music. So whatever the law says: George's judgement is not reflecting reality and Jesus' way to understand people - he looked into their hearts. And maybe THAT would help some people to understand that this is not a black/white issue we are talking about.

You know what they say..... the Road to Hell is paved with Good intentions.

by Guest Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:05 pm

Wrong? No, but it was predictable

Well...That's cool.

by Guest Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:07 pm

You know what they say..... the Road to Hell is paved with Good intentions.

Yeah...and folks who who think they are doing good by pushing unjust laws and over-punishing people should take note of that too.

by Guest Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:21 pm

I would be a lot happier if someone could just post something like: "Well, I do Download music for free, I know it is wrong, but I do. May God have mercy on me."

As we all are sinners, there would be no big deal about that.

by Guest Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:21 pm

I would be a lot happier if someone could just post something like: "Well, I do Download music for free, I know it is wrong, but I do. May God have mercy on me."

As we all are sinners, there would be no big deal about that.

by ThomasEversole Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:41 pm

For starters, I’d like to refresh everyone’s memory about my own personal experience with piracy, something I mentioned on this thread.
That being said, I also wanted to post this cartoon, which I agree with completely.

ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of. - Page 5 Theftpiracy

Stealing/theft is in fact something quite different than making a copy (without permission) and then giving it away for free.
I have never had anyone take digital files away from me. (though I have had music/CDs stolen from me - its what most online shops call "consignment") *rimshot*

I would go as far as to say that downloading free music is NOT a sin.

Think about it, Robin Hood steals from the rich and gives to the poor.
The stealing is obviously unlawful, and a sin... but is it a sin to accept a free gift?
To me its ironic that the view most people have on this is having a friend giving you a CDR of an album you like, or back further in time, giving a mixtape of your favorite tunes to a friend is acceptable...
...but share an MP3 and YOU'RE HELLBOUND SCUM.

I do think there is a sin element from making/uploading the copy and giving it away.
Not because there's a loss in tangible product - again, it is NOT theft.
Not because its being given away.
Its all about scale.

You share a CD-R with a friend, its only "shared" with one person - or a couple people.
It would take a lot of work and no one would do this, but if that same person made CD-Rs for literally millions of people of an artist's album, we're approaching the scale of sharing MP3s on a website.

Regarding piracy hurting artists, I question if that exists.
Lets face it, those downloading the album for free probably wouldn't buy it anyway if a copy wasn't free.
It is free advertisement. In fact, I wouldn't be working with one of the record labels for my project if he wouldn't have found my "illegal" download on a Russian blog, loved all the music and contacted me to re-release all those albums.

I still don't like it though. To me it doesn't make sense for me to pay for worldwide digital distribution when I could just download my own damn album for free by just going to malware infested websites and settling for a above average sounding copy of the album.
If anything, piracy makes me feel like an idiot for paying to have MP3s distributed and a paying option through iTunes, Google Play and other places.

by Guest Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:59 pm

Is there someone who is half theft? Half murderer? Half Sinner?

I guess not...So there is not common and uncommon theft. There is Theft!

"Common theft" is the proper term used to describe stealing.

I am not saying that there are common and uncommon thieves.

You are completely missing my point.

Take a look at the picture example ThomasEversole posted...It will describe to you what stealing/common theft is.

by exo Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:44 pm

Nopenopenope.....this strikes me as absolutely trolltastic. I do not care one iota if this is REALLY George Ochoa, or not. We ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT be playing the "peer pressure guilt trip" game here at CMR. Not happening. Not now....not EVER. Pull it again, and I don't care WHO you are or what your place in Christian Metal history may be......you'll be gone. Warning served.

Folks, you have my sincere apology for not catching this one sooner.

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