Open Theism

Ok then, you have made a God who is not in control. You say that God only makes decisions when he has all the facts but if he can't know the next minute then he can't know all the facts. New information is constantly coming in and He would be constantly having to learn and respond leaving Him unable to make a definitive decision and the possibility of being mistaken. 
The Bible tells us God chose us to be holy and blameless in Him before the creation of the world which couldn't be true if open theism is true.

If God can't know the future, you have no assurance of salvation when you die as that is a future event.

Fascinating discussion, hoping it remains civil.

Black Rider wrote:Ok then, you have made a God who is not in control. You say that God only makes decisions when he has all the facts but if he can't know the next minute then he can't know all the facts. New information is constantly coming in and He would be constantly having to learn and respond leaving Him unable to make a definitive decision and the possibility of being mistaken. 
The Bible tells us God chose us to be holy and blameless in Him before the creation of the world which couldn't be true if open theism is true.

I didn't make God. I observe Him using spiritual science just as you do. We gain our conclusions from His word.

Also, it is our holiness and blamelessness that was foreordained, not us ourselves.

Black Rider wrote:If God can't know the future, you have no assurance of salvation when you die as that is a future event.

This is a great statement, thought I'd give ya props to this one

Staybrite wrote:Fascinating discussion, hoping it remains civil.

Me as well, I like seeing both sides, not at each others throats

Things I have to ask you as well, Adam is:

How did God plan for the Messiah if He didn't know man was going to sin? Yet Christ was at Creation? (In the beginning was the Word)

How did God give prophecies in the Old Testament if he was just guessing? What if he got one wrong, wouldnt He then be a liar?

Hardcore Christian wrote:

Black Rider wrote:If God can't know the future, you have no assurance of salvation when you die as that is a future event.

This is a great statement, thought I'd give ya props to this one

Staybrite wrote:Fascinating discussion, hoping it remains civil.

Me as well, I like seeing both sides, not at each others throats

Things I have to ask you as well, Adam is:

How did God plan for the Messiah if He didn't know man was going to sin? Yet Christ was at Creation? (In the beginning was the Word)

How did God give prophecies in the Old Testament if he was just guessing? What if he got one wrong, wouldnt He then be a liar?

Not all prophecies came true. Would you like examples?

I'm not sure how involved I want to get into this thread, but I guess I would like to share some observations about open theism from my study over the years. One is that I see open theism as a kind of " process theology " light. I definitely see the influence of process theology on the development of ideas within the idea of openness of God. Another thing I noticed is that open theism ( much like Molinism..middle knowledge view ) seems to be very philosophically driven. Now don't get me wrong, open theists truly believe that scripture supports their view. But I think their philosophy comes first, then scripture. Plus I grant that many do not believe that they are doing that.

Something else. Open theism is also sometimes referred too as free will theism and with good reason. I do not believe Christians that choose to embrace this view of God, do so to intentionally diminish Gods glory. I believe it is more about elevating a view of the free will of humans instead. The main premise seems to state that man has a autonomy free will, and as such, God cannot know the free will decisions of " truly " free people. God can predict and God can make a very good guess. But in the end, God must react to the free will choices of man and plan according to them. And yes, I surely know that not all open theists agree on stuff like that as well.

My view is from a classic reformed pov. I don't like to call myself a " Calvinist " because John Calvin didn't invent it. My views are what have classically been seen as springing forth from the Protestant reformation which involves many theologians. That said, I believe Gods has a decree before the creation of the world and what we see taking place in scripture is that decree taking place in time. Even if God is outside of space and time, He still relates to his creatures within space and time. You see the actual acting out of creatures within time that originated from Gods good decree and determination. More could be said, but I usually don't like to write long posts.

Hardcore Christian wrote:

How did God plan for the Messiah if He didn't know man was going to sin? Yet Christ was at Creation?

Ah yes, and with that question I would like to posit a couple scriptures if no one minds.

Acts 2:23New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
²³ this man, handed over to you according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of those outside the law.

1 Peter 1:20New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

²⁰ He was destined before the foundation of the world, but was revealed at the end of the ages for your sake.

Also, I always encourage people to study this stuff on their own. You have books by Greg Boyd, John Sanders, Pinnock on the open theism side. And then you have books by theologians such as Bruce Ware and John Frame on the other side of the debate.

There are people that don't like to do a lot of reading, so for them I recommend watching some debates on those subjects. Its usually a good way to get both sides represented in a clear and fair way. Here is some for those interested to view and take in as they feel led to do so. Very helpful in a getting the " gist " of the subject.

Things I have to ask you as well, Adam is:

How did God plan for the Messiah if He didn't know man was going to sin? Yet Christ was at Creation? (In the beginning was the Word)

How did God give prophecies in the Old Testament if he was just guessing? What if he got one wrong, wouldnt He then be a liar?

Not all prophecies came true. Would you like examples?

Ok well thats a whole other discussion, anyway

What is your response to my first question

sentient 6 wrote:

Hardcore Christian wrote:

How did God plan for the Messiah if He didn't know man was going to sin? Yet Christ was at Creation?

Ah yes, and with that question I would like to posit a couple scriptures if no one minds.

Acts 2:23New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
²³ this man, handed over to you according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of those outside the law.

1 Peter 1:20New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

²⁰ He was destined before the foundation of the world, but was revealed at the end of the ages for your sake.

Exactly!

So why not both? The Bible supports both Open Theism and Classical Theism.

Hardcore Christian wrote:


Things I have to ask you as well, Adam is:

How did God plan for the Messiah if He didn't know man was going to sin? Yet Christ was at Creation? (In the beginning was the Word)

It's called contingency. God can have more than one plan in place if He wishes.

Erasmus wrote:So why not both? The Bible supports both Open Theism and Classical Theism.

They are not compatible.

I can see why the concept of open theism is appealing; since we are bound by time, it might be a way of understanding your dynamic relationship with God better. But let's get this straight: God is absolutely different from us in so many ways, let's not forget that He is Mystery. He has made Himself known indeed, but it would be rather limiting to say that we can understand His nature fully. This notion indicates the difficulties that come with speaking about God's Being by the way, whatever way you go.

I think that both parties concerning this subject have something useful to say, and I admit that whatever side you are on, you'll have difficulty explaining certain things. Having said that, allow me to take a side: I think that the concept of open theism is incorrect in the end. It is a wrong way to deal with the concept of predetermination. It may be helpful to clarify certain things about one's relationship with God, because we have only our perspective on time, whereas I believe that God is present in the past, present and future (which is not timelessness, it's God being Master of Time). So just because we can't known the future, does not mean that God can't; on the contrary I'd say.

Concerning your ability to make choices I'd say this. God knows fully well what choices I will make, but from a human perspective it is still freedom. Of course, because God already knows what will happen and will allow it to happen, it may seem as if I actually wasn't free at all. Maybe that's true, maybe not. But what does matter is that from our perspective (concerning time), we do have choices. Whether or not you are free in making them does not matter; just like with the concept of predestination. We were already written in the palm of God's hand before the beginning of time, but predestination was never meant as an excuse to not ask for God's help in your salvation (speaking from experience here by the way); it's meant for us christians to know how safe we are. In other words, it's only relevant from one side of history.

I do understand that in your there might be some grey area between the present and the things that are set in the future (the second coming comes to mind), but I don't think it's correct to be so sure about God's nescience about what happens in between. I think the certainty with which you take your stance is the cause for people to react so intensely.

It's not much, and it was really difficult to write these thoughts down in English. I have absolutely no hopes of convicing you on this point, but I think it's important to add some nuances to the discussion.

God has not only told us in His word that He regrets actions He has made and that He changes His mind (Genesis 6:6, Hezekiah, Nineveh). He has even told us that He has been swayed by human request and opinion (Moses and Abraham specifically). It is so incredibly clear to me.

Hardcore Christian wrote:

Things I have to ask you as well, Adam is:

How did God plan for the Messiah if He didn't know man was going to sin? Yet Christ was at Creation? (In the beginning was the Word)

How did God give prophecies in the Old Testament if he was just guessing? What if he got one wrong, wouldnt He then be a liar?

Not all prophecies came true. Would you like examples?

Ok well thats a whole other discussion, anyway

No, it's central to this discussion. Prophecies fail because people change. Look at Nineveh. God said it would be destroyed and it was not.

Those are indeed the main points you can make in favour of open theism. But it's good you mention Nineveh, since I just read the book of Jonah.
In chapter 4 I read about an attribute of our unchainging God, namely being regretful about the punishment He had in mind. Jonah apparently found this as tacky as could be (to understand his frustration, see his previous history with Jerobeam II). In other words: regret about wrath is an attribute of the Eternal and Unchanging. In this case, I understand only for 50% your stance on this, yet you express 100% certainty. That's why I don't trust you on this particular subject.

Maybe it's not that open theism isn't true; it's an incomplete truth.

New Creation wrote:

Hardcore Christian wrote:

Things I have to ask you as well, Adam is:

How did God plan for the Messiah if He didn't know man was going to sin? Yet Christ was at Creation? (In the beginning was the Word)

How did God give prophecies in the Old Testament if he was just guessing? What if he got one wrong, wouldnt He then be a liar?

Not all prophecies came true. Would you like examples?

Ok well thats a whole other discussion, anyway

No, it's central to this discussion. Prophecies fail because people change. Look at Nineveh. God said it would be destroyed and it was not.

So you say that Nineveh was never destroyed?

On a personal note, I have withheld this stuff for 5 years from you all. When I first joined in early 2012, I told you all that I had unconventional beliefs and I believed it was better for all of us that I not share those.

Well a man cannot keep silent forever. These are my convictions. These are my beliefs. They are part of who I am.

I was not always open view, I was what most would call an Arminian until my mid-20s. It was then, about 18 years ago, that I came across this teaching from God's word. Even then I did not accept it outright. It took several years of study, discussion and debate, before I accepted it as my own.

Yes, the first verse that grabbed me was Genesis 6:6, but you want to know the biggest word in the Bible for me on this subject? It is the word "if".

I asked many years ago, "How can a God who knows the future exhaustively use the word 'if'"? "If my people, who are called by my name..."

If? If? If? How can God use "if"? And that's when it hit me. It is not a limitation of God to not know the future exhaustively, it shows that He is a God who cares about relationships, and the beauty in the risk that can come from the other party (Israel or individuals) choosing to love Him willingly.

Beauty is a subjective term. Do you think you can conclusively say what God considers beautiful?

New Creation wrote:On a personal note, I have withheld this stuff for 5 years from you all. When I first joined in early 2012, I told you all that I had unconventional beliefs and I believed it was better for all of us that I not share those.

Well a man cannot keep silent forever. These are my convictions. These are my beliefs. They are part of who I am.

I was not always open view, I was what most would call an Arminian until my mid-20s. It was then, about 18 years ago, that I came across this teaching from God's word. Even then I did not accept it outright. It took several years of study, discussion and debate, before I accepted it as my own.

Yes, the first verse that grabbed me was Genesis 6:6, but you want to know the biggest word in the Bible for me on this subject? It is the word "if".

I asked many years ago, "How can a God who knows the future exhaustively use the word 'if'"? "If my people, who are called by my name..."

If? If? If? How can God use "if"? And that's when it hit me. It is not a limitation of God to not know the future exhaustively, it shows that He is a God who cares about relationships, and the beauty in the risk that can come from the other party (Israel or individuals) choosing to love Him willingly.

Thanks for sharing this NC. I've always said that a consistent view of Arminianism will lead to the view commonly known today as open theism.

Isaiah 14:26-27New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
²⁶ This is the plan that is planned
    concerning the whole earth;
and this is the hand that is stretched out
    over all the nations.
²⁷ For the Lord of hosts has planned,
    and who will annul it?
His hand is stretched out,
    and who will turn it back?




In light of verses such as this, would be fair to say that the open theist would answer " Adam, Abraham, or Jesus could have changed Gods plans " ?

sentient 6 wrote:

New Creation wrote:On a personal note, I have withheld this stuff for 5 years from you all. When I first joined in early 2012, I told you all that I had unconventional beliefs and I believed it was better for all of us that I not share those.

Well a man cannot keep silent forever. These are my convictions. These are my beliefs. They are part of who I am.

I was not always open view, I was what most would call an Arminian until my mid-20s. It was then, about 18 years ago, that I came across this teaching from God's word. Even then I did not accept it outright. It took several years of study, discussion and debate, before I accepted it as my own.

Yes, the first verse that grabbed me was Genesis 6:6, but you want to know the biggest word in the Bible for me on this subject? It is the word "if".

I asked many years ago, "How can a God who knows the future exhaustively use the word 'if'"? "If my people, who are called by my name..."

If? If? If? How can God use "if"? And that's when it hit me. It is not a limitation of God to not know the future exhaustively, it shows that He is a God who cares about relationships, and the beauty in the risk that can come from the other party (Israel or individuals) choosing to love Him willingly.

Thanks for sharing this NC. I've always said that a consistent view of Arminianism will lead to the view commonly known today as open theism.

You are correct. My Southern Baptist pastor told me when I was in my late teens that he did not understand the issue. He said the following "I will never understand our freedom in choosing Christ. As we enter Heaven someday, there will be a sign on the outside that says 'All may freely enter.' and when you've then entered Heaven, the back side of the sign says 'Chosen before the foundations of the earth'".

It was something like that. He did not help me that day in my current beliefs. He actually sent me down the path that led to where I am today. He didn't send me towards determinism, predestination, and Calvinism, he sent me away from it. He sent me towards truth and he never knew it.

sentient 6 wrote:Isaiah 14:26-27New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
²⁶ This is the plan that is planned
    concerning the whole earth;
and this is the hand that is stretched out
    over all the nations.
²⁷ For the Lord of hosts has planned,
    and who will annul it?
His hand is stretched out,
    and who will turn it back?




In light of verses such as this, would be fair to say that the open theist would answer " Adam, Abraham, or Jesus could have changed Gods plans " ?

Yes, it is very fair.

-God told Moses He would DESTROY Israel and start over with just Moses. Moses stayed His hand.
-God told Saul his throne would be forever. Saul changed that plan by turning to evil.
-God told Abraham to go forth to a land that I will show you. And when Abraham got there, he let Lot choose first.
-God told Moses that he would be His mouthpiece to Pharaoh. Moses complained so God relented and said Aaron could be the mouthpiece.

So yes, it is abundantly clear to me that God changes His mind.

New Creation wrote:

No, it's central to this discussion. Prophecies fail because people change. Look at Nineveh. God said it would be destroyed and it was not.

Can ask you something ? Why do you not believe it is reasonable to say that this is simply how a timeless God relates to beings who live in time ? One, God is relating to us and communicating in a way that we can understand. Sometimes we can miss some things in Johan. Johan was mad at God because he wanted to extend grace to a people that Johan thought did not deserve it. God knew what his plans were all along, and this is an example of those plans taking place in time with all the cause and effects factored in. Gods shows grace and mercy according to his sovereign plans and purpose. And maybe this was more for Johan than it was for the people of Nineveh.