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Open Theism

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Post by sentient 6 Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:16 am

New Creation wrote:
sentient 6 wrote:Isaiah 14:26-27New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
26 This is the plan that is planned
    concerning the whole earth;
and this is the hand that is stretched out
    over all the nations.
27 For the Lord of hosts has planned,
    and who will annul it?
His hand is stretched out,
    and who will turn it back?





In light of verses such as this, would be fair to say that the open theist would answer " Adam, Abraham, or Jesus could have changed Gods plans " ?

Yes, it is very fair.

-God told Moses He would DESTROY Israel and start over with just Moses. Moses stayed His hand.
-God told Saul his throne would be forever. Saul changed that plan by turning to evil.
-God told Abraham to go forth to a land that I will show you. And when Abraham got there, he let Lot choose first.
-God told Moses that he would be His mouthpiece to Pharaoh. Moses complained so God relented and said Aaron could be the mouthpiece.

So yes, it is abundantly clear to me that God changes His mind.


Thanks for that answer NC. Maybe I will follow up later when I get more time.
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Post by d@v!d Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:23 am

New Creation wrote:On a personal note, I have withheld this stuff for 5 years from you all. When I first joined in early 2012, I told you all that I had unconventional beliefs and I believed it was better for all of us that I not share those.
Bro, I've known you were a squirrel since you first came here; I didn't know to what extent though, but I decided not to make that an issue between us and was and still am your friend.

I don't plan on getting too involved in the discussion and plan on just reading what everyone has to say.

That said, I'll just state for the record as simply and replete as I can that I disagree with opentheism. I disagree with your interpretation of the scripture to back that belief, but I'm very happy to see that you are going to the scripture to argue your reasons. The scripture is our only source of truth. It's interpretation and the skewing of such by our own presuppositions is were we have trouble. From them I see God as sovereign, all-knowing, and almighty. The idea of God from the opentheism view as having imperfect knowledge about the future undermines those 3 characteristics I mentioned. Personally, the idea of God not being in complete control is unsettling. Have my feelings about that influenced my interpretation of the scripture? I don't believe so. When I first began to see God as sovereign in the scripture, I found it troubling, very troubling. It seemed to imply that God was responsible for all the suffering and people's failure to become reconciled with Him, to be saved from His wrath. Later I realized that His mercy is unwarranted and sovereignty means that His promises are indeed trustworthy.

Back to your decision to open up here about your opentheism, I have little problem with you holding to that belief. To me, holding to that view is only limiting to your potential personal comfort and reason to trust God more as one should. The only problem that could arise from your opening up about it is if you embark on a campaign to ram it down everyone's throats around here in the same manner that SA used go about trying to make us all accept freegracetheology. But, I esteem you much better than him and don't expect such behavior. I am exceedingly glad to see a civil discussion on on such a contentious subject here.

God bless.
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Post by New Creation Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:45 am

d@v!d wrote:
New Creation wrote:On a personal note, I have withheld this stuff for 5 years from you all. When I first joined in early 2012, I told you all that I had unconventional beliefs and I believed it was better for all of us that I not share those.
Bro, I've known you were a squirrel since you first came here; I didn't know to what extent though, but I decided not to make that an issue between us and was and still am your friend.

I don't plan on getting too involved in the discussion and plan on just reading what everyone has to say.

That said, I'll just state for the record as simply and replete as I can that I disagree with opentheism. I disagree with your interpretation of the scripture to back that belief, but I'm very happy to see that you are going to the scripture to argue your reasons. The scripture is our only source of truth. It's interpretation and the skewing of such by our own presuppositions is were we have trouble. From them I see God as sovereign, all-knowing, and almighty. The idea of God from the opentheism view as having imperfect knowledge about the future undermines those 3 characteristics I mentioned. Personally, the idea of God not being in complete control is unsettling. Have my feelings about that influenced my interpretation of the scripture? I don't believe so. When I first began to see God as sovereign in the scripture, I found it troubling, very troubling. It seemed to imply that God was responsible for all the suffering and people's failure to become reconciled with Him, to be saved from His wrath. Later I realized that His mercy is unwarranted and sovereignty means that His promises are indeed trustworthy.

Back to your decision to open up here about your opentheism, I have little problem with you holding to that belief. To me, holding to that view is only limiting to your potential personal comfort and reason to trust God more as one should. The only problem that could arise from your opening up about it is if you embark on a campaign to ram it down everyone's throats around here in the same manner that SA used go about trying to make us all accept freegracetheology. But, I esteem you much better than him and don't expect such behavior. I am exceedingly glad to see a civil discussion on on such a contentious subject here.

God bless.

A "squirrel"??? By that, do you mean that I hide things? This is absolutely true. This is not a theology forum and I knew going in that this was a divisive subject, so yes, I absolutely kept this hidden all these years so as to keep peace among the brethren here.

Am I hiding other things? Yes, I am, because they are also divisive. Perhaps the truth should come out so that people can decide for themselves, but I am far from orthodox on several issues.

I will not embark on a campaign to ram this down everyone's throats. I think my 5 years of silence have shown that to be true.

You state "...I'm very happy to see that you are going to the scripture to argue your reasons.". I agree brother, it is our only grounding in this debate. We cannot go on feelings or philosophy, only on facts in His word. We can bring in those other items as tools for discussion, but only if they jive with God's Holy Word.
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Post by Black Rider Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:54 am

Sentient is right, God talks to us like children, like sheep who can't understand the mysteries of God. In Malachi 3 God tells them He doesn't change. If we take OT to it's logical end, and some of it's proponents actually have, you have a god who isn't in control, has to learn so he can respond correctly and will still make mistakes, doesn't know the next minute much less the next year and is open to whimsy. This is a demi-god, think of Zeuss or Thor, gods in mans image.
Again I will say, it God is limited by His creation and God doesn't know tomorrow, you have no assurance of salvation as tomorrow cannot be known this is not the God of the Bible.
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Post by Black Rider Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:58 am

I'm going to guess you're also a universalist since it's the logical conclusion of open theism.
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Post by d@v!d Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:16 pm

New Creation wrote:
A "squirrel"??? By that, do you mean that I hide things? This is absolutely true. This is not a theology forum and I knew going in that this was a divisive subject, so yes, I absolutely kept this hidden all these years so as to keep peace among the brethren here.
Squirrel = "I had unconventional beliefs." That's all I mean by that. I pegged you as odd from the start, but most everyone here is odd.
Am I hiding other things? Yes, I am, because they are also divisive. Perhaps the truth should come out so that people can decide for themselves, but I am far from orthodox on several issues.
I think that we are at a collective maturity to civilly discuss yours or others differing views here. I hope that we don't have to decide to like you or care about you based on your theology. Your actions are the more important criteria.
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Post by New Creation Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:20 pm

d@v!d wrote:
New Creation wrote:
A "squirrel"??? By that, do you mean that I hide things? This is absolutely true. This is not a theology forum and I knew going in that this was a divisive subject, so yes, I absolutely kept this hidden all these years so as to keep peace among the brethren here.
Squirrel = "I had unconventional beliefs." That's all I mean by that. I pegged you as odd from the start, but most everyone here is odd.
Am I hiding other things? Yes, I am, because they are also divisive. Perhaps the truth should come out so that people can decide for themselves, but I am far from orthodox on several issues.
I think that we are at a collective maturity to civilly discuss yours or others differing views here. I hope that we don't have to decide to like you or care about you based on your theology. Your actions are the more important criteria.

Blessings brother. Thanks for the clarification. I've always had a difficult time understanding your sarcasm and your metaphors.
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Post by New Creation Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:22 pm

Black Rider wrote:I'm going to guess you're also a universalist since it's the logical conclusion of open theism.

Absolutely not. Universalism is of the devil.

God does not save all. Eternal judgement is a very real thing and I've spent my life warning people of God's coming wrath.
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Post by Black Rider Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:31 pm

I'm very glad to hear that. Keep on warning people, it's what we are to do as believers.
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Post by d@v!d Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:56 pm

New Creation wrote:
Black Rider wrote:I'm going to guess you're also a universalist since it's the logical conclusion of open theism.

Absolutely not. Universalism is of the devil.

God does not save all. Eternal judgement is a very real thing and I've spent my life warning people of God's coming wrath.
yeah, cuz then we'd really have to wonder what your sig means.
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Post by New Creation Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:58 pm

Black Rider wrote:I'm very glad to hear that. Keep on warning people, it's what we are to do as believers.

d@v!d wrote:
New Creation wrote:
Black Rider wrote:I'm going to guess you're also a universalist since it's the logical conclusion of open theism.

Absolutely not. Universalism is of the devil.

God does not save all. Eternal judgement is a very real thing and I've spent my life warning people of God's coming wrath.
yeah, cuz then we'd really have to wonder what your sig means.

LOL, yeah. In case anyone is wondering however, it means that God has not dealt judgement out to all of us, even though we deserved it. Christ took it on our behalf. So "fair" would be all of us getting judged.
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Post by Hardcore Christian Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:24 pm

I'll say it again Razz

This is a fascinating discussion

So glad to see both sides backed by scripture, I'm also enjoying learning about more theological views

Its like a small Theo forum in here, and it hasnt been LOCKED yet!!! affraid

lol!
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Post by New Creation Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:08 pm

Another side note, as we go through all this.

Various Open Theist proponents have been brought up in this thread. Names like Greg Boyd, Clark Pinnock, and Bob Enyart.

Just because I'm in agreement with some of what they say does not mean I agree with all of it.

Greg Boyd is an excellent apologist and defender of the faith. He's pretty good in the spiritual warfare section and the "God and the problem of evil" section. His book entitled "God at War" is fantastic. I have not yet read the followup "Satan and the Problem of Evil". Greg is a pacifist and a liberal and I disagree with his teaching in these area. I also disagree with some of his open view teachings. He seems to be more Arminian and just doesn't admit it.

I'm pretty sure Clark Pinnock is a liberal and also has some problems with his teachings on the Holy Spirit. He didn't directly come out and call the Holy Spirit female, but he might as well have.

Bob Enyart I agree with a lot in almost every area.
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Post by Superjuice Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:20 pm

Two cents:

Greg Boyd was my pastor for nearly twenty years.  He is a passionate believer and a great apologist debating many a' atheist on their own stomping grounds.

I only have this to say about the topic regarding Pastor Boyd: he really doesn't preach all that much on the subject, mainly focuses on things like grace and freedom from condemnation.  You'd have to get his books to hear full take on the omniscience of God Almighty.  He mainly wants to A. protect the character of Yahweh and B. destroy salvation fatalism. so his motives are pure and he does an excellent job in explaining his positions.  Another great aspect is he doesn't let it become a wall to other believers, but is very "open" to discourse and doesn't let things get personal.  He displays excellent character through discussions and gives him an upper leg in doing so (unlike some atheists he's debated who 'devolved' to personal attacks).

Like Calvinism, this viewpoint has various degrees of approaching the subject and you really can't peg the view legit or illegite on one man's take on the subject.  Thus I do take Greg's take with a grain of salt, and I do come away from reading scripture that Adonai's foreknowledge is less 'open' as a whole than he does.
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Post by New Creation Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:15 pm

Hardcore Christian wrote:I'll say it again Razz

This is a fascinating discussion

So glad to see both sides backed by scripture, I'm also enjoying learning about more theological views

Its like a small Theo forum in here, and it hasnt been LOCKED yet!!! affraid

lol!

It's a big theological world out there and you are young. Take everything you read and filter it through the Word of God first and take opinions and people's beliefs second.

Superjuice wrote:Two cents:

Greg Boyd was my pastor for nearly twenty years.  He is a passionate believer and a great apologist debating many a' atheist on their own stomping grounds.

I only have this to say about the topic regarding Pastor Boyd: he really doesn't preach all that much on the subject, mainly focuses on things like grace and freedom from condemnation.  You'd have to get his books to hear full take on the omniscience of God Almighty.  He mainly wants to A. protect the character of Yahweh and B. destroy salvation fatalism. so his motives are pure and he does an excellent job in explaining his positions.  Another great aspect is he doesn't let it become a wall to other believers, but is very "open" to discourse and doesn't let things get personal.  He displays excellent character through discussions and gives him an upper leg in doing so (unlike some atheists he's debated who 'devolved' to personal attacks).

Like Calvinism, this viewpoint has various degrees of approaching the subject and you really can't peg the view legit or illegite on one man's take on the subject.  Thus I do take Greg's take with a grain of salt, and I do come away from reading scripture that Adonai's foreknowledge is less 'open' as a whole than he does.

Fascinating story. Very interesting.
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Post by Guest Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:20 pm

New Creation wrote:
Erasmus wrote:So why not both? The Bible supports both Open Theism and Classical Theism.

They are not compatible.
Which is my point. Sticking with a particular theological slant requires us to ignore scripture which does not conform with our chosen position. God again not fitting into our boxes.

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Post by exo Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:21 pm

Hardcore Christian wrote:I'll say it again Razz

This is a fascinating discussion

So glad to see both sides backed by scripture, I'm also enjoying learning about more theological views

Its like a small Theo forum in here, and it hasnt been LOCKED yet!!! affraid

lol!


I'm keeping an eye on things, as I always try to.  The two main participants here have NEVER caused issues.  Black Rider is a former staff member, and If you look at New Creation's recent posts in this thread, you'll note he's held back on things out of respect for the potential "problems" that they could create here. That level of "respect" for the well being of the environment here earns a long rope as a result......

Some of the other folks I've hopped on in the past.......but they've learned the art of self moderation to some extent.  This thread is in absolutely ZERO danger of being locked so long as the conduct in it continues down the same path and stays rooted in the spirit of friendship.

The issues with "theological" threads have NEVER been a matter of content........

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Post by MikeInFla Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:09 am

New Creation wrote:


Absolutely not. Universalism is of the devil.

God does not save all. Eternal judgement is a very real thing and I've spent my life warning people of God's coming wrath.

Where's the "like" button when you need one? 

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Post by sentient 6 Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:45 am

I went back and read some of the passages mentioned here and I had some more thoughts on the subject of the idea of God " changing " His mind. First I would like to posit a verse as a foundation to build upon.

Numbers 23:19New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
19 God is not a human being, that he should lie,
    or a mortal, that he should change his mind.
Has he promised, and will he not do it?
    Has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?


Is the passage where Moses intercedes for the his fellow Israelites ( Exodus 32 ) really trying to convey  a true changing of Gods mind ? First, we see many times in the scriptures things described from the perspective of the observer. From Moses' vantage point, it did seem to appear as if God changed His mind. The Bible quite often describe God in human terms and I believe this is one of those occasions. The Scriptures describe God as having arms and body parts as well, but I do not think we need to take those literal either. The Bible uses language in such way that we can relate to a God who is truly beyond what the human mind can fathom.

Also, I thought about the implications of Moses causing God to relent from a course of action. If God truly changed His mind because of what Moses said too Him, does not that seem like Moses is acting as a true " counselor " to God ? God relented because Moses showed God a better way ? Too me, that is running too close to blasphemy in my opinion. An infallible God was corrected by his fallible creature ? God was acting impulsively and Moses showed Him a better way ? I think what is more consistent with what is revealed about God is that God is showing that intercession is part of His plan and will. That this is merely another instance were God has chosen to have His servants to be part of His plans. That this was more for Moses as a spiritual leader than it was for God. God knew what He would do all along, but what we see is His plans being acted out in time and set course of events. 

.....good discussion so far. I too, am glad that we are being allowed to talk about the things of God ( in a civil manner of course ).
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Post by Andreas89 Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:53 am

Since I don't mind being that guy that randomly (actually not exactly randomly) refers to a (part of a) verse from Scripture, I'm gonna do that now.

Psalm 31 verse 16 (or 15 in the KJV) says "My times are in Thy hand". What does that mean?
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Post by New Creation Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:00 pm

sentient 6 wrote:I went back and read some of the passages mentioned here and I had some more thoughts on the subject of the idea of God " changing " His mind. First I would like to posit a verse as a foundation to build upon.

Numbers 23:19New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
19 God is not a human being, that he should lie,
    or a mortal, that he should change his mind.
Has he promised, and will he not do it?
    Has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?


Is the passage where Moses intercedes for the his fellow Israelites ( Exodus 32 ) really trying to convey  a true changing of Gods mind ? First, we see many times in the scriptures things described from the perspective of the observer. From Moses' vantage point, it did seem to appear as if God changed His mind. The Bible quite often describe God in human terms and I believe this is one of those occasions. The Scriptures describe God as having arms and body parts as well, but I do not think we need to take those literal either. The Bible uses language in such way that we can relate to a God who is truly beyond what the human mind can fathom.

Also, I thought about the implications of Moses causing God to relent from a course of action. If God truly changed His mind because of what Moses said too Him, does not that seem like Moses is acting as a true " counselor " to God ? God relented because Moses showed God a better way ? Too me, that is running too close to blasphemy in my opinion. An infallible God was corrected by his fallible creature ? God was acting impulsively and Moses showed Him a better way ? I think what is more consistent with what is revealed about God is that God is showing that intercession is part of His plan and will. That this is merely another instance were God has chosen to have His servants to be part of His plans. That this was more for Moses as a spiritual leader than it was for God. God knew what He would do all along, but what we see is His plans being acted out in time and set course of events. 

.....good discussion so far. I too, am glad that we are being allowed to talk about the things of God ( in a civil manner of course ).

In Exodus 32:10 God tells Moses to leave Him alone, Moses then pleads with Him to remember His covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and so God relents.

You state that this is from a human perspective and it doesn't really mean what it says. If that is true, then how can you trust anything in the Bible? What is your criteria for determining when a passage means what it says and when it doesn't?
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Post by Andreas89 Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:13 pm

^That's actually quite simple. Moses "reminded" God of what He had promised. Like saying "but how can You be someone else than You say You are?" The fact that God listened to Moses' plea is a sign of God's consistency.
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Post by New Creation Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:24 pm

Andreas89 wrote:^That's actually quite simple. Moses "reminded" God of what He had promised. Like saying "but how can You be someone else than You say You are?" The fact that God listened to Moses' plea is a sign of God's consistency.

But God repented. Now, if you are going to say that He planned to repent, then why did He tell Moses in the first place what He was going to do? If for our benefit as sentient 6 says, then how do we know what else in the Bible is only written for our benefit, and it not to be taken literally. This is a slippery slope, saying that things in the Bible are not literal.
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Post by d@v!d Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:59 pm

I think that a helpful direction for those in this discussion would be to go over and try to agree on the principles of interpretation.
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Post by ImagoDei Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:14 pm

" If for our benefit as sentient 6 says, then how do we know what else in the Bible is only written for our benefit, and it not to be taken literally. This is a slippery slope, saying that things in the Bible are not literal"


I agree, but one thing about this I find confusing. Jesus is the son of God. Jesus taught using a lot of parables. If a method of explaining things used by Jesus were stories, why should we think that God did not use similar methods throughout the scriptures? Why would God incarnate suddenly change up how he goes about getting certain points across once in the flesh? Could some things be simply too complex for us to grasp, hence a parable? But why only from Jesus but not the Father in say, Genesis?

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