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Re: Open Theism

Post by sentient 6 on Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:16 am

New Creation wrote:
sentient 6 wrote:Isaiah 14:26-27New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
26 This is the plan that is planned
    concerning the whole earth;
and this is the hand that is stretched out
    over all the nations.
27 For the Lord of hosts has planned,
    and who will annul it?
His hand is stretched out,
    and who will turn it back?





In light of verses such as this, would be fair to say that the open theist would answer " Adam, Abraham, or Jesus could have changed Gods plans " ?

Yes, it is very fair.

-God told Moses He would DESTROY Israel and start over with just Moses. Moses stayed His hand.
-God told Saul his throne would be forever. Saul changed that plan by turning to evil.
-God told Abraham to go forth to a land that I will show you. And when Abraham got there, he let Lot choose first.
-God told Moses that he would be His mouthpiece to Pharaoh. Moses complained so God relented and said Aaron could be the mouthpiece.

So yes, it is abundantly clear to me that God changes His mind.


Thanks for that answer NC. Maybe I will follow up later when I get more time.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by d@v!d on Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:23 am

New Creation wrote:On a personal note, I have withheld this stuff for 5 years from you all. When I first joined in early 2012, I told you all that I had unconventional beliefs and I believed it was better for all of us that I not share those.
Bro, I've known you were a squirrel since you first came here; I didn't know to what extent though, but I decided not to make that an issue between us and was and still am your friend.

I don't plan on getting too involved in the discussion and plan on just reading what everyone has to say.

That said, I'll just state for the record as simply and replete as I can that I disagree with opentheism. I disagree with your interpretation of the scripture to back that belief, but I'm very happy to see that you are going to the scripture to argue your reasons. The scripture is our only source of truth. It's interpretation and the skewing of such by our own presuppositions is were we have trouble. From them I see God as sovereign, all-knowing, and almighty. The idea of God from the opentheism view as having imperfect knowledge about the future undermines those 3 characteristics I mentioned. Personally, the idea of God not being in complete control is unsettling. Have my feelings about that influenced my interpretation of the scripture? I don't believe so. When I first began to see God as sovereign in the scripture, I found it troubling, very troubling. It seemed to imply that God was responsible for all the suffering and people's failure to become reconciled with Him, to be saved from His wrath. Later I realized that His mercy is unwarranted and sovereignty means that His promises are indeed trustworthy.

Back to your decision to open up here about your opentheism, I have little problem with you holding to that belief. To me, holding to that view is only limiting to your potential personal comfort and reason to trust God more as one should. The only problem that could arise from your opening up about it is if you embark on a campaign to ram it down everyone's throats around here in the same manner that SA used go about trying to make us all accept freegracetheology. But, I esteem you much better than him and don't expect such behavior. I am exceedingly glad to see a civil discussion on on such a contentious subject here.

God bless.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:45 am

d@v!d wrote:
New Creation wrote:On a personal note, I have withheld this stuff for 5 years from you all. When I first joined in early 2012, I told you all that I had unconventional beliefs and I believed it was better for all of us that I not share those.
Bro, I've known you were a squirrel since you first came here; I didn't know to what extent though, but I decided not to make that an issue between us and was and still am your friend.

I don't plan on getting too involved in the discussion and plan on just reading what everyone has to say.

That said, I'll just state for the record as simply and replete as I can that I disagree with opentheism. I disagree with your interpretation of the scripture to back that belief, but I'm very happy to see that you are going to the scripture to argue your reasons. The scripture is our only source of truth. It's interpretation and the skewing of such by our own presuppositions is were we have trouble. From them I see God as sovereign, all-knowing, and almighty. The idea of God from the opentheism view as having imperfect knowledge about the future undermines those 3 characteristics I mentioned. Personally, the idea of God not being in complete control is unsettling. Have my feelings about that influenced my interpretation of the scripture? I don't believe so. When I first began to see God as sovereign in the scripture, I found it troubling, very troubling. It seemed to imply that God was responsible for all the suffering and people's failure to become reconciled with Him, to be saved from His wrath. Later I realized that His mercy is unwarranted and sovereignty means that His promises are indeed trustworthy.

Back to your decision to open up here about your opentheism, I have little problem with you holding to that belief. To me, holding to that view is only limiting to your potential personal comfort and reason to trust God more as one should. The only problem that could arise from your opening up about it is if you embark on a campaign to ram it down everyone's throats around here in the same manner that SA used go about trying to make us all accept freegracetheology. But, I esteem you much better than him and don't expect such behavior. I am exceedingly glad to see a civil discussion on on such a contentious subject here.

God bless.

A "squirrel"??? By that, do you mean that I hide things? This is absolutely true. This is not a theology forum and I knew going in that this was a divisive subject, so yes, I absolutely kept this hidden all these years so as to keep peace among the brethren here.

Am I hiding other things? Yes, I am, because they are also divisive. Perhaps the truth should come out so that people can decide for themselves, but I am far from orthodox on several issues.

I will not embark on a campaign to ram this down everyone's throats. I think my 5 years of silence have shown that to be true.

You state "...I'm very happy to see that you are going to the scripture to argue your reasons.". I agree brother, it is our only grounding in this debate. We cannot go on feelings or philosophy, only on facts in His word. We can bring in those other items as tools for discussion, but only if they jive with God's Holy Word.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Black Rider on Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:54 am

Sentient is right, God talks to us like children, like sheep who can't understand the mysteries of God. In Malachi 3 God tells them He doesn't change. If we take OT to it's logical end, and some of it's proponents actually have, you have a god who isn't in control, has to learn so he can respond correctly and will still make mistakes, doesn't know the next minute much less the next year and is open to whimsy. This is a demi-god, think of Zeuss or Thor, gods in mans image.
Again I will say, it God is limited by His creation and God doesn't know tomorrow, you have no assurance of salvation as tomorrow cannot be known this is not the God of the Bible.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Black Rider on Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:58 am

I'm going to guess you're also a universalist since it's the logical conclusion of open theism.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by d@v!d on Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:16 pm

New Creation wrote:
A "squirrel"??? By that, do you mean that I hide things? This is absolutely true. This is not a theology forum and I knew going in that this was a divisive subject, so yes, I absolutely kept this hidden all these years so as to keep peace among the brethren here.
Squirrel = "I had unconventional beliefs." That's all I mean by that. I pegged you as odd from the start, but most everyone here is odd.
Am I hiding other things? Yes, I am, because they are also divisive. Perhaps the truth should come out so that people can decide for themselves, but I am far from orthodox on several issues.
I think that we are at a collective maturity to civilly discuss yours or others differing views here. I hope that we don't have to decide to like you or care about you based on your theology. Your actions are the more important criteria.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:20 pm

d@v!d wrote:
New Creation wrote:
A "squirrel"??? By that, do you mean that I hide things? This is absolutely true. This is not a theology forum and I knew going in that this was a divisive subject, so yes, I absolutely kept this hidden all these years so as to keep peace among the brethren here.
Squirrel = "I had unconventional beliefs." That's all I mean by that. I pegged you as odd from the start, but most everyone here is odd.
Am I hiding other things? Yes, I am, because they are also divisive. Perhaps the truth should come out so that people can decide for themselves, but I am far from orthodox on several issues.
I think that we are at a collective maturity to civilly discuss yours or others differing views here. I hope that we don't have to decide to like you or care about you based on your theology. Your actions are the more important criteria.

Blessings brother. Thanks for the clarification. I've always had a difficult time understanding your sarcasm and your metaphors.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:22 pm

Black Rider wrote:I'm going to guess you're also a universalist since it's the logical conclusion of open theism.

Absolutely not. Universalism is of the devil.

God does not save all. Eternal judgement is a very real thing and I've spent my life warning people of God's coming wrath.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Black Rider on Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:31 pm

I'm very glad to hear that. Keep on warning people, it's what we are to do as believers.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by d@v!d on Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:56 pm

New Creation wrote:
Black Rider wrote:I'm going to guess you're also a universalist since it's the logical conclusion of open theism.

Absolutely not. Universalism is of the devil.

God does not save all. Eternal judgement is a very real thing and I've spent my life warning people of God's coming wrath.
yeah, cuz then we'd really have to wonder what your sig means.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:58 pm

Black Rider wrote:I'm very glad to hear that. Keep on warning people, it's what we are to do as believers.

d@v!d wrote:
New Creation wrote:
Black Rider wrote:I'm going to guess you're also a universalist since it's the logical conclusion of open theism.

Absolutely not. Universalism is of the devil.

God does not save all. Eternal judgement is a very real thing and I've spent my life warning people of God's coming wrath.
yeah, cuz then we'd really have to wonder what your sig means.

LOL, yeah. In case anyone is wondering however, it means that God has not dealt judgement out to all of us, even though we deserved it. Christ took it on our behalf. So "fair" would be all of us getting judged.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Hardcore Christian on Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:24 pm

I'll say it again Razz

This is a fascinating discussion

So glad to see both sides backed by scripture, I'm also enjoying learning about more theological views

Its like a small Theo forum in here, and it hasnt been LOCKED yet!!! affraid

lol!
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:08 pm

Another side note, as we go through all this.

Various Open Theist proponents have been brought up in this thread. Names like Greg Boyd, Clark Pinnock, and Bob Enyart.

Just because I'm in agreement with some of what they say does not mean I agree with all of it.

Greg Boyd is an excellent apologist and defender of the faith. He's pretty good in the spiritual warfare section and the "God and the problem of evil" section. His book entitled "God at War" is fantastic. I have not yet read the followup "Satan and the Problem of Evil". Greg is a pacifist and a liberal and I disagree with his teaching in these area. I also disagree with some of his open view teachings. He seems to be more Arminian and just doesn't admit it.

I'm pretty sure Clark Pinnock is a liberal and also has some problems with his teachings on the Holy Spirit. He didn't directly come out and call the Holy Spirit female, but he might as well have.

Bob Enyart I agree with a lot in almost every area.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Superjuice on Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:20 pm

Two cents:

Greg Boyd was my pastor for nearly twenty years.  He is a passionate believer and a great apologist debating many a' atheist on their own stomping grounds.

I only have this to say about the topic regarding Pastor Boyd: he really doesn't preach all that much on the subject, mainly focuses on things like grace and freedom from condemnation.  You'd have to get his books to hear full take on the omniscience of God Almighty.  He mainly wants to A. protect the character of Yahweh and B. destroy salvation fatalism. so his motives are pure and he does an excellent job in explaining his positions.  Another great aspect is he doesn't let it become a wall to other believers, but is very "open" to discourse and doesn't let things get personal.  He displays excellent character through discussions and gives him an upper leg in doing so (unlike some atheists he's debated who 'devolved' to personal attacks).

Like Calvinism, this viewpoint has various degrees of approaching the subject and you really can't peg the view legit or illegite on one man's take on the subject.  Thus I do take Greg's take with a grain of salt, and I do come away from reading scripture that Adonai's foreknowledge is less 'open' as a whole than he does.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:15 pm

Hardcore Christian wrote:I'll say it again Razz

This is a fascinating discussion

So glad to see both sides backed by scripture, I'm also enjoying learning about more theological views

Its like a small Theo forum in here, and it hasnt been LOCKED yet!!! affraid

lol!

It's a big theological world out there and you are young. Take everything you read and filter it through the Word of God first and take opinions and people's beliefs second.

Superjuice wrote:Two cents:

Greg Boyd was my pastor for nearly twenty years.  He is a passionate believer and a great apologist debating many a' atheist on their own stomping grounds.

I only have this to say about the topic regarding Pastor Boyd: he really doesn't preach all that much on the subject, mainly focuses on things like grace and freedom from condemnation.  You'd have to get his books to hear full take on the omniscience of God Almighty.  He mainly wants to A. protect the character of Yahweh and B. destroy salvation fatalism. so his motives are pure and he does an excellent job in explaining his positions.  Another great aspect is he doesn't let it become a wall to other believers, but is very "open" to discourse and doesn't let things get personal.  He displays excellent character through discussions and gives him an upper leg in doing so (unlike some atheists he's debated who 'devolved' to personal attacks).

Like Calvinism, this viewpoint has various degrees of approaching the subject and you really can't peg the view legit or illegite on one man's take on the subject.  Thus I do take Greg's take with a grain of salt, and I do come away from reading scripture that Adonai's foreknowledge is less 'open' as a whole than he does.

Fascinating story. Very interesting.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Erasmus on Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:20 pm

New Creation wrote:
Erasmus wrote:So why not both? The Bible supports both Open Theism and Classical Theism.

They are not compatible.
Which is my point. Sticking with a particular theological slant requires us to ignore scripture which does not conform with our chosen position. God again not fitting into our boxes.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by exo on Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:21 pm

Hardcore Christian wrote:I'll say it again Razz

This is a fascinating discussion

So glad to see both sides backed by scripture, I'm also enjoying learning about more theological views

Its like a small Theo forum in here, and it hasnt been LOCKED yet!!! affraid

lol!


I'm keeping an eye on things, as I always try to.  The two main participants here have NEVER caused issues.  Black Rider is a former staff member, and If you look at New Creation's recent posts in this thread, you'll note he's held back on things out of respect for the potential "problems" that they could create here. That level of "respect" for the well being of the environment here earns a long rope as a result......

Some of the other folks I've hopped on in the past.......but they've learned the art of self moderation to some extent.  This thread is in absolutely ZERO danger of being locked so long as the conduct in it continues down the same path and stays rooted in the spirit of friendship.

The issues with "theological" threads have NEVER been a matter of content........

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Re: Open Theism

Post by MikeInFla on Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:09 am

New Creation wrote:


Absolutely not. Universalism is of the devil.

God does not save all. Eternal judgement is a very real thing and I've spent my life warning people of God's coming wrath.

Where's the "like" button when you need one? 

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Re: Open Theism

Post by sentient 6 on Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:45 am

I went back and read some of the passages mentioned here and I had some more thoughts on the subject of the idea of God " changing " His mind. First I would like to posit a verse as a foundation to build upon.

Numbers 23:19New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
19 God is not a human being, that he should lie,
    or a mortal, that he should change his mind.
Has he promised, and will he not do it?
    Has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?


Is the passage where Moses intercedes for the his fellow Israelites ( Exodus 32 ) really trying to convey  a true changing of Gods mind ? First, we see many times in the scriptures things described from the perspective of the observer. From Moses' vantage point, it did seem to appear as if God changed His mind. The Bible quite often describe God in human terms and I believe this is one of those occasions. The Scriptures describe God as having arms and body parts as well, but I do not think we need to take those literal either. The Bible uses language in such way that we can relate to a God who is truly beyond what the human mind can fathom.

Also, I thought about the implications of Moses causing God to relent from a course of action. If God truly changed His mind because of what Moses said too Him, does not that seem like Moses is acting as a true " counselor " to God ? God relented because Moses showed God a better way ? Too me, that is running too close to blasphemy in my opinion. An infallible God was corrected by his fallible creature ? God was acting impulsively and Moses showed Him a better way ? I think what is more consistent with what is revealed about God is that God is showing that intercession is part of His plan and will. That this is merely another instance were God has chosen to have His servants to be part of His plans. That this was more for Moses as a spiritual leader than it was for God. God knew what He would do all along, but what we see is His plans being acted out in time and set course of events. 

.....good discussion so far. I too, am glad that we are being allowed to talk about the things of God ( in a civil manner of course ).
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Andreas89 on Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:53 am

Since I don't mind being that guy that randomly (actually not exactly randomly) refers to a (part of a) verse from Scripture, I'm gonna do that now.

Psalm 31 verse 16 (or 15 in the KJV) says "My times are in Thy hand". What does that mean?
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:00 pm

sentient 6 wrote:I went back and read some of the passages mentioned here and I had some more thoughts on the subject of the idea of God " changing " His mind. First I would like to posit a verse as a foundation to build upon.

Numbers 23:19New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
19 God is not a human being, that he should lie,
    or a mortal, that he should change his mind.
Has he promised, and will he not do it?
    Has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?


Is the passage where Moses intercedes for the his fellow Israelites ( Exodus 32 ) really trying to convey  a true changing of Gods mind ? First, we see many times in the scriptures things described from the perspective of the observer. From Moses' vantage point, it did seem to appear as if God changed His mind. The Bible quite often describe God in human terms and I believe this is one of those occasions. The Scriptures describe God as having arms and body parts as well, but I do not think we need to take those literal either. The Bible uses language in such way that we can relate to a God who is truly beyond what the human mind can fathom.

Also, I thought about the implications of Moses causing God to relent from a course of action. If God truly changed His mind because of what Moses said too Him, does not that seem like Moses is acting as a true " counselor " to God ? God relented because Moses showed God a better way ? Too me, that is running too close to blasphemy in my opinion. An infallible God was corrected by his fallible creature ? God was acting impulsively and Moses showed Him a better way ? I think what is more consistent with what is revealed about God is that God is showing that intercession is part of His plan and will. That this is merely another instance were God has chosen to have His servants to be part of His plans. That this was more for Moses as a spiritual leader than it was for God. God knew what He would do all along, but what we see is His plans being acted out in time and set course of events. 

.....good discussion so far. I too, am glad that we are being allowed to talk about the things of God ( in a civil manner of course ).

In Exodus 32:10 God tells Moses to leave Him alone, Moses then pleads with Him to remember His covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and so God relents.

You state that this is from a human perspective and it doesn't really mean what it says. If that is true, then how can you trust anything in the Bible? What is your criteria for determining when a passage means what it says and when it doesn't?
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Andreas89 on Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:13 pm

^That's actually quite simple. Moses "reminded" God of what He had promised. Like saying "but how can You be someone else than You say You are?" The fact that God listened to Moses' plea is a sign of God's consistency.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:24 pm

Andreas89 wrote:^That's actually quite simple. Moses "reminded" God of what He had promised. Like saying "but how can You be someone else than You say You are?" The fact that God listened to Moses' plea is a sign of God's consistency.

But God repented. Now, if you are going to say that He planned to repent, then why did He tell Moses in the first place what He was going to do? If for our benefit as sentient 6 says, then how do we know what else in the Bible is only written for our benefit, and it not to be taken literally. This is a slippery slope, saying that things in the Bible are not literal.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by d@v!d on Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:59 pm

I think that a helpful direction for those in this discussion would be to go over and try to agree on the principles of interpretation.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by ImagoDei on Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:14 pm

" If for our benefit as sentient 6 says, then how do we know what else in the Bible is only written for our benefit, and it not to be taken literally. This is a slippery slope, saying that things in the Bible are not literal"


I agree, but one thing about this I find confusing. Jesus is the son of God. Jesus taught using a lot of parables. If a method of explaining things used by Jesus were stories, why should we think that God did not use similar methods throughout the scriptures? Why would God incarnate suddenly change up how he goes about getting certain points across once in the flesh? Could some things be simply too complex for us to grasp, hence a parable? But why only from Jesus but not the Father in say, Genesis?

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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:32 pm

ImagoDei wrote:" If for our benefit as sentient 6 says, then how do we know what else in the Bible is only written for our benefit, and it not to be taken literally. This is a slippery slope, saying that things in the Bible are not literal"


I agree, but one thing about this I find confusing. Jesus is the son of God. Jesus taught using a lot of parables. If a method of explaining things used by Jesus were stories, why should we think that God did not use similar methods throughout the scriptures? Why would God incarnate suddenly change up how he goes about getting certain points across once in the flesh? Could some things be simply too complex for us to grasp, hence a parable? But why only from Jesus but not the Father in say, Genesis?

The passage or the context makes it clear when something is not literal. For example, wisdom personified in Proverbs 8, it is clear metaphor by the words used.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by sentient 6 on Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:14 am

New Creation wrote:

In Exodus 32:10 God tells Moses to leave Him alone, Moses then pleads with Him to remember His covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and so God relents.

You state that this is from a human perspective and it doesn't really mean what it says. If that is true, then how can you trust anything in the Bible? What is your criteria for determining when a passage means what it says and when it doesn't?

I don't have time for a long answer but quickly i'll say this - I believe they mean what they say. But I am not saying they mean that God changes his mind like sinful, fallible humans do. Because we relent and change our minds too. What I am not saying is that Moses was reminding God that he should keep His promises and acting like an advisor to Him. What I am also saying is that intercession is part of Gods divine decree.


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Re: Open Theism

Post by sentient 6 on Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:26 am

New Creation wrote:

But God repented. Now, if you are going to say that He planned to repent, then why did He tell Moses in the first place what He was going to do? If for our benefit as sentient 6 says, then how do we know what else in the Bible is only written for our benefit, and it not to be taken literally. This is a slippery slope, saying that things in the Bible are not literal.

1 Samuel 15:29 - The Glory of Israel will not lie or repent; for he is not a man, that he should repent.


We don't know what is for our benefit or what shapes and molds our faith while we are going through things. We do know what Moses went through and what shaped and molded His faith because we read about His interactions with God. Once again, I guess I am just trying to convey that whatever the Spirit is trying to teach us about these passages, one of them is not that God repents as a man does.

....short answer.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Hardcore Christian on Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:43 am

A few verses that have been on my mind since the start of this thread:

Before a word is on my tongue
you, Lord, know it completely.
- Psalm 139:4

For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.
- 1 John 3:20

Would not God discover this? For he knows the secrets of the heart.

- Psalm 44:21
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:05 am

Hardcore Christian wrote:A few verses that have been on my mind since the start of this thread:

Before a word is on my tongue
you, Lord, know it completely.
- Psalm 139:4

For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.
- 1 John 3:20

Would not God discover this? For he knows the secrets of the heart.
- Psalm 44:21

All beautiful verses.

Psalm 139:4 is beautiful because it shows that God had an intimate relationship with David in such a way that David was entirely predictable. It is a song from David to God, a personal note.

1 John 3:20 does not contradict my teachings. Not once in this thread have I said God does not know everything. What I said was "God knows all that He chooses to know out of what is knowable." He chooses to know the hearts of those that are His.

Psalm 44:21 is also beautiful because it teaches God's discovery. The King James even shows that He searches it out.

We grow in our relationship with Him, and He grows in His relationship with us, not due to lack of maturity on His part, but due to the choices we make which shape who we are and how we will love Him. How much joy does He get when we sing a NEW song unto Him?
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Re: Open Theism

Post by sentient 6 on Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:34 am

d@v!d wrote:I think that a helpful direction for those in this discussion would be to go over and try to agree on the principles of interpretation.

..very true.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by sentient 6 on Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:37 am

ImagoDei wrote:
I agree, but one thing about this I find confusing. Jesus is the son of God. Jesus taught using a lot of parables. If a method of explaining things used by Jesus were stories, why should we think that God did not use similar methods throughout the scriptures? Why would God incarnate suddenly change up how he goes about getting certain points across once in the flesh? Could some things be simply too complex for us to grasp, hence a parable? But why only from Jesus but not the Father in say, Genesis?

I think the texts are clear when there is a historic narrative and when Jesus is using parables, metaphors or figures of speech to drive home a point ( or make sure things are unclear for some of the hearers ).
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Re: Open Theism

Post by sentient 6 on Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:39 am

New Creation wrote:

But God repented.

Did he ? 3000 unbelievers were put too the sword shortly after.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by sentient 6 on Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:43 am

New creation, how much does your view of free will factor into your beliefs about God ? Do you believe in libertarian free will ? The fallen nature of man ? And if so, too what extent ?
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Re: Open Theism

Post by sentient 6 on Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:47 am

New Creation wrote:

All beautiful verses.

Psalm 139:4 is beautiful because it shows that God had an intimate relationship with David in such a way that David was entirely predictable. It is a song from David to God, a personal note.


Is being " predictable " the same as knowing something ?
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Mysterious Gamer Dude on Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:02 pm

I believe that God isn't limited by time, I believe He created time itself, because He is eternal. If God were limited by time then we could not have eternal life, because God would not be eternal. God is self-existent, He has no beginning and no end, God just is. Our minds can't comprehend such a thing, God is just that big. Finite minds such as ourselves cannot grasp that which is of an Infinite mind. 


Does anyone remember a number line? It has both positive and negative numbers, positive on the right and negative on the left, with a "0" in the center. Both are represented as infinite and never ending in either direction. Let's make the negative side represent the past, and the positive represent the future, while the "0" will represent the present. And then let's take the entire number line and call it "time".

You can think of time as a number line, with God holding the pencil.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:20 pm

sentient 6 wrote:
ImagoDei wrote:
I agree, but one thing about this I find confusing. Jesus is the son of God. Jesus taught using a lot of parables. If a method of explaining things used by Jesus were stories, why should we think that God did not use similar methods throughout the scriptures? Why would God incarnate suddenly change up how he goes about getting certain points across once in the flesh? Could some things be simply too complex for us to grasp, hence a parable? But why only from Jesus but not the Father in say, Genesis?

I think the texts are clear when there is a historic narrative and when Jesus is using parables, metaphors or figures of speech to drive home a point ( or make sure things are unclear for some of the hearers ).

And the Moses text in Exodus 32 is a historic narrative, not a parable.

sentient 6 wrote:
New Creation wrote:

But God repented.

Did he ? 3000 unbelievers were put too the sword shortly after.

But not all of Israel as God had stated.

sentient 6 wrote:New creation, how much does your view of free will factor into your beliefs about God ? Do you believe in libertarian free will ? The fallen nature of man ? And if so, too what extent ?

Yes, we have libertarian free will. Although that is kind of overstating it. Free will is will that is free. It is libertarian. It is neither known by God ahead of time nor is it determined by God ahead of time.

sentient 6 wrote:
New Creation wrote:

All beautiful verses.

Psalm 139:4 is beautiful because it shows that God had an intimate relationship with David in such a way that David was entirely predictable. It is a song from David to God, a personal note.


Is being " predictable " the same as knowing something ?

No. As I've already shown, not all prophecies come true. I can show more if needed.

Mysterious Gamer Dude wrote:I believe that God isn't limited by time, I believe He created time itself, because He is eternal. If God were limited by time then we could not have eternal life, because God would not be eternal. God is self-existent, He has no beginning and no end, God just is. Our minds can't comprehend such a thing, God is just that big. Finite minds such as ourselves cannot grasp that which is of an Infinite mind. 


Does anyone remember a number line? It has both positive and negative numbers, positive on the right and negative on the left, with a "0" in the center. Both are represented as infinite and never ending in either direction. Let's make the negative side represent the past, and the positive represent the future, while the "0" will represent the present. And then let's take the entire number line and call it "time".

You can think of time as a number line, with God holding the pencil.

Time is not a thing to be created. It has no substance. As stated early on in this thread, it is a measurement. Strictly speaking, it is the measurement between events. Eternity is not the absence of time, it is time eternal. Nowhere in the Bible is it taught that God exists outside of time. In fact, quite the opposite.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Airola on Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:16 pm

I don't believe in future. I don't think there is a future as something that is already existing but yet to come. I don't believe God is able to see in that future because that is just not possible just as it is not possible to have a round square.

That said, I believe in ideas.
I believe every possible future scenario exists as an idea.
I believe God knows absolutely each and every one of them.

I believe the prophets were able to take a peek into those ideas.

I believe some of the future scenarios are things that are bound to happen. Some situations are things that will happen no matter what people do. Sometimes all the possible actions people do will lead into a certain situation. This can be prophecied with 100% accuracy. I believe the death of Jesus Christ on the cross was one of those situations. That whatever people would choose, it would always lead to this certain situation if there would be a man like Jesus around. So as God chose to reveal himself in Jesus at that point in history, it became an idea to be seen by the prophets.


I believe we have free will to do anything we want. I think free will is proven every single time I sin. I'm not going to put blame of my sin to my creator. My sins are something I choose to do, over and over again. Sometimes I feel like there was a sign that I should not take steps towards the sin I'm about to do. And I still do it. If it were a real sign and my sorry ass still didn't follow that sign, wouldn't that also prove we have the choice to follow what we choose? Otherwise, if we didn't have a free will to choose, unfollowed signs like that would've been put into action by God in vain. If God knows we don't follow the sign, why would he make the sign? I believe every unfollowed sign proves free will exists.

I believe God does not know what we will choose, or he chooses to not see what we will do, to let us make our beds, sow our seeds and reap what we sow. He knows what we choose and why we choose but doesn't know what we will choose.
God, however, knows every possible outcome of our actions and he lets us choose our paths freely. He knows the possible outcomes because the ideas of them exist. The actualizations of the outcomes exist only in the moment they happen. They do not exist as something already happened in future, because future does not exist. So, in a way, God at the same time doesn't know what we choose but still knows every possible potential choice we can make and what the results of each of them would be. Therefore he knows everything there is logically possible to know. Knowing the future, however, is in most cases impossible because future does not exist. God doesn't make logically impossible things. He doesn't make square circles.




What comes to time, I believe time is both the measurement between events and the rate of corrosion and change in things (we can also measure). There is no past and there is no future. Time is movement. When time ends, everything becomes changeless for eternity. I believe this is how heaven and hell are eternal. Unclean fallen soul in an endless state of inability to change is surely an intolerable torment. But imagine what a cleansed soul in eternity must be like! Our ability to clean ourselves completely is impossible and this is why Jesus Christ is so important and he is available to each of us, no matter what we have done, where we have been and what our heritage is.



In the scale of 1-100, how big of a herecy I just wrote is? Very Happy

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Re: Open Theism

Post by Hardcore Christian on Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:46 pm

So what about the Book Of Revelation?

Is it literal? or a parable? figurative?

How did God predict it? if he doesnt know the future?

Is the whole book a prophecy that wont come true?
Why was it left in the Bible if its false? or past the time it was meant to happen in?

Just some questions to throw into the conversation
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Airola on Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:43 pm

I think The Book of Revelation with all its symbolism can easily be explained with what I wrote about the nature of "future".

God knows certain things are bound to happen. They are the only possible things at the end of all of the possible paths.

Also, there is of course also the possibility of God choosing to make something happen at a certain point in the existence of his creation. If he has decided to make something happen, then that also is an idea of a future and it's also bound to happen if it's something God absolutely decided to to instead of keeping a few options around.

For example, the end will happen because God made the universe in such a way that it has an end. That is something that can be told by God to happen and can be seen by prophets and it will not change.

The thing about future existing as ideas, and the thing about ideas in general, is that ideas can be understood in literal and figurative and symbolic ways. When someone gets to see the idea, he might understand the idea as an exact same way it physically will happen, but he also might understand the idea in a more symbolic sense where he taps into the core of the idea without being able to see how it actually physically looks like. I'd say that if the revelation could show us the exact future instead of the idea of the future, it would've been written in much more literal approach.

If you saw a box on the table yesterday, it doesn't physically exist in yesterday anymore but it the idea of the box on the table yesterday still exists as an idea.
If you plan to throw a box on the floor tomorrow, the box on the floor tomorrow doesn't physically exist in today, but the box on the floor tomorrow exists as an idea today.
And God knows you had seen the box on the table yesterday. And he knows you plan on throwing the box on the floor tomorrow. And he knows you eventually might not throw it and he knows if there is a potential another situation growing that might stop you from throwing it on the floor (maybe there is a friend planning on visiting you tomorrow).
He perfectly knows everything you have done, everything you plan to do and every possible outcome whether you decided to execute the plan or not. And he allows you to make your own choices. If there is something that every possible path you take leads you on, then that is something that is bound to happen and God could say this is your 100% definite future.

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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:07 am

I only have a moment right now, but it is fascinating to have Airola enter the thread and share his views. I disagree that God knows all possible futures. Since future is forever, without end, this means an endless string of possibilities and events. God cannot know this future nor all possible futures since that means He would be thinking forever about forever.

By the way, there is time in Heaven for all who are curious. Revelation 8:1 "...silence in heaven for about half an hour..."
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:10 am

Hardcore Christian wrote:So what about the Book Of Revelation?

Is it literal? or a parable? figurative?

How did God predict it? if he doesnt know the future?

Is the whole book a prophecy that wont come true?
Why was it left in the Bible if its false? or past the time it was meant to happen in?

Just some questions to throw into the conversation

It is literal and God intends for it to happen.

How did God predict it? It's one thing to predict an event or series of events because God knows it will happen. It's another to predict because God makes it happen.

It very well could come true. Some details could change. We shall see!
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Airola on Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:32 pm

New Creation wrote:I only have a moment right now, but it is fascinating to have Airola enter the thread and share his views. I disagree that God knows all possible futures. Since future is forever, without end, this means an endless string of possibilities and events. God cannot know this future nor all possible futures since that means He would be thinking forever about forever.

Wow, I hadn't thought about the possibility of a paradox like that. That's a good call.

However, I'm thinking about this in the context of our universe and our physical existence. This world will end at some point. I was thinking about all the possible future events concerning the current human life on this planet. There is not an endless string of possibilities for us as this world and the universe will end at some point. So God would know every possible outcome of every possible choice anyone ever does until the end of the world.

I also believe that God doesn't think in a "timely" manner like we do, or that at least his thinking is way faster than ours. Our thinking speed is reduced greatly by the physical way our brains process the thoughts. Since God doesn't have a physical brain, his mind is faster and sharper than any computer we could ever even imagine existing. I believe God can think of the situation now and the situation 10,000 years from now and every situation in between immediately all at the same time effortlessly. Since God knows where everything exists and he knows our thoughts and what we are doing, his mind can go through the logical conclusions of our actions and he can see the logic in which the possible action would connect with other peoples possible actions.
Note that when we decide to do something, it often makes huge amounts of different possibilities to disappear. It of course also brings forth new possibilities but as each of our lives are limited, the amount of possible futures for each of us gets smaller and smaller, therefore the amount of God's thoughts about possible futures also get smaller and smaller,

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Re: Open Theism

Post by Hardcore Christian on Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:43 pm

Airola wrote:I also believe that God doesn't think in a "timely" manner like we do
So how is God limited inside of time?

If time is just a measurement created by man, hence the future is a time created by man

Why is God limited to not knowing the future?

If he exists outside of our time, how does He not know the future

All in all, having God be limited by time, just limits His character and who He is
I don't understand how you can believe He doesn't know the future when all it does is limits God's character, it restricts who He is

When in reality He is way bigger and greater than anything we can even imagine
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:29 pm

Airola wrote:
New Creation wrote:I only have a moment right now, but it is fascinating to have Airola enter the thread and share his views. I disagree that God knows all possible futures. Since future is forever, without end, this means an endless string of possibilities and events. God cannot know this future nor all possible futures since that means He would be thinking forever about forever.

Wow, I hadn't thought about the possibility of a paradox like that. That's a good call.

However, I'm thinking about this in the context of our universe and our physical existence. This world will end at some point. I was thinking about all the possible future events concerning the current human life on this planet. There is not an endless string of possibilities for us as this world and the universe will end at some point. So God would know every possible outcome of every possible choice anyone ever does until the end of the world.

I also believe that God doesn't think in a "timely" manner like we do, or that at least his thinking is way faster than ours. Our thinking speed is reduced greatly by the physical way our brains process the thoughts. Since God doesn't have a physical brain, his mind is faster and sharper than any computer we could ever even imagine existing. I believe God can think of the situation now and the situation 10,000 years from now and every situation in between immediately all at the same time effortlessly. Since God knows where everything exists and he knows our thoughts and what we are doing, his mind can go through the logical conclusions of our actions and he can see the logic in which the possible action would connect with other peoples possible actions.
Note that when we decide to do something, it often makes huge amounts of different possibilities to disappear. It of course also brings forth new possibilities but as each of our lives are limited, the amount of possible futures for each of us gets smaller and smaller, therefore the amount of God's thoughts about possible futures also get smaller and smaller,

We will make decisions in heaven and we will be no less real then than we are now. The implications still arise.

Hardcore Christian wrote:
Airola wrote:I also believe that God doesn't think in a "timely" manner like we do
So how is God limited inside of time?

If time is just a measurement created by man, hence the future is a time created by man

Why is God limited to not knowing the future?

If he exists outside of our time, how does He not know the future

All in all, having God be limited by time, just limits His character and who He is
I don't understand how you can believe He doesn't know the future when all it does is limits God's character, it restricts who He is

When in reality He is way bigger and greater than anything we can even imagine

Man did not create the measurement of time. Time is the distance between two or more events. It applies to all beings, whether they be physical or spiritual. If the Father tells the Holy Spirit "I love you", how much time does that take? It takes some length.

He does not exist outside of our time, he exists inside of time right along with us. Time is not a prison, it is simply a duration. People can measure it how they want.

You say that not knowing the future limits God. That's like saying that God is limited because he can't go to a place that doesn't exist.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:41 pm

Also, Bob Enyart has been a personal friend for about 18 years. If you have not watched this debate yet, you'll want to. It's a very good one.

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Re: Open Theism

Post by Hardcore Christian on Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:58 pm

New Creation wrote:Man did not create the measurement of time. Time is the distance between two or more events. It applies to all beings, whether they be physical or spiritual. If the Father tells the Holy Spirit "I love you", how much time does that take? It takes some length.

He does not exist outside of our time, he exists inside of time right along with us. Time is not a prison, it is simply a duration. People can measure it how they want.

You say that not knowing the future limits God. That's like saying that God is limited because he can't go to a place that doesn't exist.
But doesn't He actually exist outside of time? Because He has no beginning and no end? There wasnt an event A or B when He was created because He never was created

Unless Him never having a beginning is defined as a moment in time to you?

And where in the Bible does it say that Time applies to all physical and spiritual beings?

How would The Trinity or anything spiritual be restricted by time? Where does it say that?

The thing with the Bible is it leaves many things open to the imagination when it comes down to God's power, because we can never and will never be able to fathom it
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Airola on Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:05 pm

Hardcore Christian wrote:
Airola wrote:I also believe that God doesn't think in a "timely" manner like we do
So how is God limited inside of time?

If time is just a measurement created by man, hence the future is a time created by man

Why is God limited to not knowing the future?

If he exists outside of our time, how does He not know the future

All in all, having God be limited by time, just limits His character and who He is
I don't understand how you can believe He doesn't know the future when all it does is limits God's character, it restricts who He is

When in reality He is way bigger and greater than anything we can even imagine

No, I believe future does not exist at all. There's nothing to see in future because there isn't a future. All that is, is now.
Being outside of our time is being outside of physical change and corrosion. Time is not a dimension. You can calculate the "distance" between two events by measuring values and numbers. That "distance" is something we can associate with time. But even if we can measure the distance between those two events and we can even calculate other events with the knowledge of that, those events do not physically exist anywhere.

Speed affects time, yes. But it doesn't mean we can "time travel" with enough speed. It's just that speed affects molecyles and atoms etc in a manner that makes them move, change and corrode at another pace. That's why with enough speed a person might sense time passing very differently from how people who are not going that speed sense. Speed affects our brains. That's also why if you would send a clock move extremely fast it would show different time than what a clock that is not in that speedy journey would show. It doesn't mean the clock has broken into time dimension and it's not a proof of a time travel of any sort. It just shows that the combinations of atoms that make clock a clock are affected by speed in a manner that it makes those atoms move and change at a different pace.

Future does not exist but ideas of future do exist. Logical conclusions of what future might hold exist. When God has made a certain idea of a certain event and has decided that it will happen, then it will happen unless he changes his mind. He wouldn't be able to give us free will if all events in future already physically exist in some "timely" dimension and if those event would be bound to happen no matter what. But because future does not exist, we can have free will.

When we dream, the things in our dreams do not physically exist, but they are ideas that are so vivid we sometimes think a dream we see is physically real. It feels so real. It looks so real. The things in our dreams don't physically exist, but the ideas in our dreams exist. A prophecy is a kind of a dream. It is an idea of future. When it comes from God it is not just a dream but it's a peek into the potential future God knows can happen in his all-knowingness. And sometimes it's a peek into the only possible future which is either caused by our actions being such that no else future can happen in any of the combinations of actions, or it's a future God has decided to make happen.

For example, before Jesus, there in theory was a potential future without Jesus. But God knew that letting Jesus happen in that exact moment in that exact place would be the best option to make his initial plan to happen with still letting us have our free will. He knew all the possible futures with and without Jesus and saw which would be the time and place for Jesus. Note that those futures didn't actually physically exist anywhere, but they were ideas and logical conclusions to a huge amount of combinations of actions. God doesn't gamble when he has the knowledge of every possible resolution to every possible combination of actions. It doesn't make him less powerful, but it makes him the absolutely most powerful being there can logically be. I mention logic here because we can't say God does logically impossible things, like if he suddenly makes a square circle. That is just a combination of words and the actualization of that combination is impossible. If future doesn't exist, then an actual future physically existing somewhere is impossible too and God won't do anything about it because it's not a thing that is, just as God won't do anything for square circles because they also are not things that are.


New Creation wrote:We will make decisions in heaven and we will be no less real then than we are now. The implications still arise.

I'm not sure if there is anymore a reason to know the possible future events in heaven as it is the most perfect place imaginable.

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Re: Open Theism

Post by Devon Hill on Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:23 pm

New Creation wrote:
Hardcore Christian wrote:
Things I have to ask you as well, Adam is:

How did God plan for the Messiah if He didn't know man was going to sin? Yet Christ was at Creation? (In the beginning was the Word)

How did God give prophecies in the Old Testament if he was just guessing? What if he got one wrong, wouldnt He then be a liar?

Not all prophecies came true. Would you like examples?
Ok well thats a whole other discussion, anyway

No, it's central to this discussion. Prophecies fail because people change. Look at Nineveh. God said it would be destroyed and it was not.

I don't think what happened with Ninevah is a failed prophecy.  It's similar to if I said to my kid "I'm going to send you to your room for not cleaning the house".  The kid could apologize, and if I wanted to, out of mercy and compassion, not send him to his room.  Would that make me inconsistent and a person who doesn't keep my word because I relented?  I would sure hope not.  If that is the case with us, we shouldn't think that if God relents, it somehow makes his prophecy false.  Jonah's words to Ninevah were not a prophecy in the sense that as soon as the words left his lips, they can't be reversed, and no matter what anybody did, it couldn't be changed.  They were simply a warning.

God makes it very clear about stuff like this in Jeremiah 18:

"If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted,10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it." (Jeremiah 18:7-11)



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Devon Hill
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Devon Hill on Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:39 pm

sentient 6 wrote:An infallible God was corrected by his fallible creature ? God was acting impulsively and Moses showed Him a better way ? I think what is more consistent with what is revealed about God is that God is showing that intercession is part of His plan and will. That this is merely another instance were God has chosen to have His servants to be part of His plans. That this was more for Moses as a spiritual leader than it was for God. God knew what He would do all along, but what we see is His plans being acted out in time and set course of events. 

I very much agree.  It's somewhat similar to the story of God telling Abraham to sacrifice Isaac.  Some people could argue God was being deceptive to Abraham by telling him to go do something (and even, imagine it, sinning by telling him to kill his own son), and then later telling him to not do it.  But is that really the case?  Or did God use it for a much bigger purpose and reason?  What happened in the story was a foreshadow in a sense that God would provide his Son Jesus for a sacrifice.  I'm guessing most people didn't make that connection of the deeper meaning until after Jesus was given as the sacrifice many centuries later.  Only after they saw what happened with Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, would the deeper meaning of that story be known.  

We know so little compared to the infinite wisdom and purposes of what God does.  Just like God wasn't deceiving Abraham, the same can be said that God was not relenting with Moses just because he changed his mind.  There is a much deeper meaning to it than that.  What sentient 6 said about showing that intercession is a major part of his plan and will, I think is a major key to understanding why it happened this way with Moses.
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Re: Open Theism

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