Open Theism

ThomasEversole wrote:I've seen a t-shirt that says, "If I'm told I need to find Jesus, does that mean He's hiding?" and there's a cartoon illustration of Jesus in a bunch of plants doing a shhhhhh with his finger.

The irony is, that Christ doesn't "hide" from us.  He's already knocking on the doors of our hearts, and has been all along.  All we need to do is let Him in so we can accept Him, as our Savior.

Now if encountered someone who believed that they had to DO something to be "saved", like be baptized (a church I went to as a kid believed this), or partake in communion, or whatever else...  I would disagree with that, but I wouldn't classify it as a "dealbreaker" as long as they're 1) seeking Christ and His gift of salvation and 2) living like a Christian.

Lets say I encountered someone who was polytheistic.  They have Jesus Christ as their savior, but also had The Muffin Man as their other savior, and they prayed to both, lived according to both, etc. etc. etc.  I would disagree with that Muffin Man part, but I wouldn't classify it as a "dealbreaker" as long as they're 1) seeking Christ and His gift of salvation and 2) living like a Christian.

That whole muffin man deal as a waste of time and a sin, but, none of us have room to talk.  We sin too, just differently.  

Ok, lets say you pointed out that Jesus said that you cannot serve two masters, for you will love the one and hate the other ? And they still persisted in their " two " saviors religion ? Also, I liken this example here as a outright rejection of the Gospel and would not classify it as an example of a Christian sinning.

ThomasEversole wrote:
Let me turn the tables here for a second sentient 6.  Twice now, you've referenced the term "dealbreaker".  Now I have my own definition of what that is, and I can assume how you're defining it, but can you clarify HOW you are defining it?

If someone does/believes something that is what you'd consider to be a "dealbreaker", does that mean:
- You refuse to show them love?
- You refuse to talk to or associate with them?
- You turn around and walk the other direction when they come near?
- You harass them through mental and emotional abuse until they leave or come around to your beliefs/actions?
- You approach them lovingly with the right answers, and get more and more "wrathful" when they don't come around?
- All of the above?

I will follow up later tonight when I get home from work and speak to the question you posed to me here.

sentient 6 wrote:
Lol, strange that I would want to get ready to go to bed ? I logged on, and I seen that I should clarify something. Why is it that whatever I post its always a " rapid fire " response ? ( please don't answer that though )

You weren't clarifying something though. You asked 3 questions.
Questions don't clarify anything. They bait a response so an agreement or contradiction can be made.

sentient 6 wrote:
An example for me ? I could not join with JWs, Mormons, Roman Catholics, Oneness Pentecostals, or any denominations that have forsaken the scriptures as their sole source of authority for their beliefs. I could commune with Reformed Baptists, Most Lutherans, Most Presbyterians, Baptists, Wesleyans, and maybe some orthodox charismatics congregations. Probably some more, but I think you understand what I am saying.

That's boldly presumptuous to say ALL Mormons and Roman Catholics have "forsaken the scriptures as their sole source of authority for their beliefs". Do you know the hearts and beliefs of all members of these groups?

I come from a southern baptist stock myself. The Catholics and Mormons I've met have a passion for Christ, and have obviously accepted him as their savior - and I concede that I haven't met all members of said "denomination". I honestly haven't rooted around their doctrines to find "differences" (what I disagree with), but like I said before... as long as they're 1) seeking Christ and His gift of salvation and 2) living like a Christian, the rest is small potatoes.

At least I don't think its worth fighting about and stirring up negative emotions over...

sentient 6 wrote:
To your second question, essential for salvation. I know people can start out in ignorance on these things. But I am talking about a willful and thoughful rejection once they are made of aware of what the scripture teaches.

Wait, so you're saying someone has to have the right "ratio" in their God/human belief of Christ's "nature" to be saved?
Are you saying if someone is off in that ratio, they're going to hell?

I thought salvation was accepting Christ's gift... not an "understanding of God" ratio...??

sentient 6 wrote:
I am not rejecting what they posted. I think you are making more out of my posts than what is warranted. I am asking questions to see where people draw their lines in regards to Christian belief. Was I supposed to assume that everyone here believes the same thing about who Christ is  ? I think I know pretty much what everyone here believes about Christ. But once again, I was just asking what are the lines that people draw when they encounter beliefs about Christ and salvation that are different their own.

Well, you know where my line is drawn. I've said it multiple times. A few others have said similar things, regarding others having faith and still making "dealbreakers".

In regards to encountering different beliefs about Christ... where's your cutoff?

If I believed Christ had a bicycle, didn't like apples, or visited North America while he was on earth... would those be dealbreakers to you?

sentient 6 wrote:
Ok, lets say you pointed out that Jesus said that you cannot serve two masters, for you will love the one and hate the other ? And they still persisted in their " two " saviors religion ? Also, I liken this example here as a outright rejection of the Gospel and would not classify it as an example of a Christian sinning.

I don't think you understand what polytheism is...

sentient 6 wrote:
I will follow up later tonight when I get home from work and speak to the question you posed to me here.

...ok...

sentient 6 wrote:

messiaen77 wrote:
I'll take this one on.  The way I see it, I don't get to decide what the "deal breakers" are because I'm not the one making the deal.  I don't get to disqualify anyone for the Kingdom because it ain't my Kingdom.  So no, I don't have any "deal breaking" doctrinal issues.

 Well, I am not referring to their eternal state per se. It could have that kind of consequence though. More along the lines of people who you feel you are in communion with in the local church. People you would worship together, learn and join under a common united belief.

I don't believe anyone has 100% perfect theology.  We've all got some stuff wrong.  I believe in grace and the work of the Holy Spirit to teach, correct, and train in righteousness.

ThomasEversole wrote:

sentient 6 wrote:
 Well, I am not referring to their eternal state per se. It could have that kind of consequence though. More along the lines of people who you feel you are in communion with in the local church. People you would worship together, learn and join under a common united belief.

The common united belief is faith in Christ Jesus.  Not Nature of God group A over here and Nature of God group B over there....  That just wreaks of a Corinth Clique, which Paul spoke against.

When one takes it upon themselves to be the world's doctrine police, they smash the church's "together, learn and join" to pieces.

Yeah, this.  The "common belief" that unifies us is faith in Christ.

sentient 6 wrote:

messiaen77 wrote:
I'll take this one on.  The way I see it, I don't get to decide what the "deal breakers" are because I'm not the one making the deal.  I don't get to disqualify anyone for the Kingdom because it ain't my Kingdom.  So no, I don't have any "deal breaking" doctrinal issues.

 Also, there must be churches and denominations that you know that you could not in good conscious attend and be part of....right ?

Yes, there are.  But that may or may not have anything to do with doctrinal issues.  It is typically more practice than doctrine that turns me off.  It also has nothing really to do with whether or not I could fellowship/worship/take communion with or learn from people who do attend or are a part of those churches/denominations.  While I might go to a service with them occasionally, I could not in good consciousness associate myself regularly with their church because that would imply I agree with or endorse what they teach/believe/practice.

ThomasEversole wrote:

sentient 6 wrote:
Lol, strange that I would want to get ready to go to bed ? I logged on, and I seen that I should clarify something. Why is it that whatever I post its always a " rapid fire " response ? ( please don't answer that though )

You weren't clarifying something though.  You asked 3 questions.
Questions don't clarify anything.  They bait a response so an agreement or contradiction can be made.

sentient 6 wrote:
An example for me ? I could not join with JWs, Mormons, Roman Catholics, Oneness Pentecostals, or any denominations that have forsaken the scriptures as their sole source of authority for their beliefs. I could commune with Reformed Baptists, Most Lutherans, Most Presbyterians, Baptists, Wesleyans, and maybe some orthodox charismatics congregations. Probably some more, but I think you understand what I am saying.

That's boldly presumptuous to say ALL Mormons and Roman Catholics have "forsaken the scriptures as their sole source of authority for their beliefs".  Do you know the hearts and beliefs of all members of these groups?

I come from a southern baptist stock myself.  The Catholics and Mormons I've met have a passion for Christ, and have obviously accepted him as their savior - and I concede that I haven't met all members of said "denomination".  I honestly haven't rooted around their doctrines to find "differences" (what I disagree with), but like I said before...  as long as they're 1) seeking Christ and His gift of salvation and 2) living like a Christian, the rest is small potatoes.

At least I don't think its worth fighting about and stirring up negative emotions over...

There's an old John Fischer song that rings true to me.  "Jesus is the only way, but there's more than one way to Jesus.

Yes, there are.  But that may or may not have anything to do with doctrinal issues.  It is typically more practice than doctrine that turns me off.  It also has nothing really to do with whether or not I could fellowship/worship/take communion with or learn from people who do attend or are a part of those churches/denominations.  While I might go to a service with them occasionally, I could not in good consciousness associate myself regularly with their church because that would imply I agree with or endorse what they teach/believe/practice.

I have to agree with this.  Many churches OFFICIALLY believe in certain doctrines but may or may not practice those.  They may be back-bitin', gossip loving, discord spreading people while they teach good doctrine.  How they conduct themselves and the reputation they have in the community has as much to do with whether I want to associate with certain churches more than what they teach.

I don't agree with Church Of Christ doctrines.  However, I have been to one close to my house when the weather was bad and we cancelled services.  I overlooked what I disagreed with and worshiped with them.  I stopped going when they told me that "they knew where God was telling me to be".  I felt that they were telling me that my "God radar" was broken and they were the authority to tell me what God was saying to me.  I only felt I was there to worship since my own church was temporarily closed for snow (we don't salt/clear all roads here).  That turned me off.  When a couple of members tried the same guilt trip on me when they saw me out publicly, it really left a bad taste in my mouth.  I discontinued visiting there based on their actions more than their doctrine.  Unless I feel that the Holy Spirit is directing me, I won't return there.

ThomasEversole wrote:

sentient 6 wrote:
I will follow up later tonight when I get home from work and speak to the question you posed to me here.

...ok...

You're not the first to say in recent times "I'll tell you tomorrow" and then not.  I was hoping you'd elaborate more on the points you brought up, instead of making a different point by saying you'd reply, then not doing so...

messiaen77 wrote:
Yes, there are.  But that may or may not have anything to do with doctrinal issues.  It is typically more practice than doctrine that turns me off.  It also has nothing really to do with whether or not I could fellowship/worship/take communion with or learn from people who do attend or are a part of those churches/denominations.  While I might go to a service with them occasionally, I could not in good consciousness associate myself regularly with their church because that would imply I agree with or endorse what they teach/believe/practice.

alldatndensum wrote:
I don't agree with Church Of Christ doctrines.  However, I have been to one close to my house when the weather was bad and we cancelled services.  I overlooked what I disagreed with and worshiped with them.  I stopped going when they told me that "they knew where God was telling me to be".  I felt that they were telling me that my "God radar" was broken and they were the authority to tell me what God was saying to me.  I only felt I was there to worship since my own church was temporarily closed for snow (we don't salt/clear all roads here).  That turned me off.  When a couple of members tried the same guilt trip on me when they saw me out publicly, it really left a bad taste in my mouth.  I discontinued visiting there based on their actions more than their doctrine.  Unless I feel that the Holy Spirit is directing me, I won't return there.

Spot on gentlemen.  Alldat, your experience sounds very similar to this Lutheran church I went to in my hometown.  I'm not extremely familiar with Lutheran doctrine, some things were "catholic-ish", at least from this particular church, but none of that had anything to do with the fact that worshiping Christ there didn't feel a whole lot different than worshiping him anywhere.  At the time, this church was literally across the street, so for the sake of convenience, I decided to check it out.

What turned me off to that church was, I got the cold shoulder after they found out my last name.  (I guess "Eversole" is stigmatized to "baptist" in my home town)  It wasn't that they disagreed and debated doctrine with me.  I'm honestly only assuming it was because of my last name.  After the service, the preacher stands at the exit of the sanctuary and "fellowships" with the people as they leave.  My first time there, was friendly, shook my hand.  He asked who I was and I told him.  

When I was next in line the following week, he just ghosted me - wouldn't shake my hand or even say hello - just looked at me, then started talking with the person who was in line behind me.

So I walked out never to return.

What is sad, Thomas, is that many churches commit acts like this that they will teach against.  They rarely admit that they do things like this that make people uncomfortable and feel unloved.  HOW we act many times turns off other believers and non-believers more so that what we believe in my opinion.

alldatndensum wrote:What is sad, Thomas, is that many churches commit acts like this that they will teach against.  They rarely admit that they do things like this that make people uncomfortable and feel unloved.  HOW we act many times turns off other believers and non-believers more so that what we believe in my opinion.

We need a giant agree button integrated into this forum.
So I can press it for your post. LOL

Within reason, I get that we're not always up to living what we're taught. ...or what we preach.
...but there's a huge difference between trying and failing, and deliberately doing the opposite out of ego, pride, etc.

ThomasEversole wrote:


You're not the first to say in recent times "I'll tell you tomorrow" and then not.  I was hoping you'd elaborate more on the points you brought up, instead of making a different point by saying you'd reply, then not doing so...

Sorry, I've been a little busy. But also, I wasn't sure if this was something I wanted to continue with at this forum.

If someone does/believes something that is what you'd consider to be a "dealbreaker", does that mean:
- You refuse to show them love?
- You refuse to talk to or associate with them?
- You turn around and walk the other direction when they come near?
- You harass them through mental and emotional abuse until they leave or come around to your beliefs/actions?
- You approach them lovingly with the right answers, and get more and more "wrathful" when they don't come around?
- All of the above?

First of all, I was primarily using " deal breaker " in the sense of who you or I feel we are in communion with. But I will also say that it has implications of leading me to feel who needs to hear the Gospel and who doesn't. Who might have a saving knowledge of God and who might not. Also, I totally feel that God can save people within say, Moromism and Roman Catholicism. But from my pov, it would be despite of their churches distinctive theology, rather than because of it. Plus, it would be reasonable to believe that the Holy Spirit would continue to lead them away from error and they would feel a continuous dissatisfaction staying with those congregations. Now, too you're questions....

1 ) The most loving thing from my pov would be to share the truth with them. Now, I believe their is a time and place for everything. There are appropriate times and ways of talking to people about what I believe and what they believe.

2 ) No. I would not refuse to talk or associate with them

3 ) No.

4 ) No. Like I stated, there is a time and place for everything. I take comfort as a Calvinist that it is the Holy Spirit that converts people and not us. I try to let the Holy Spirit guide me as to when I should be talking about my beliefs and to who. And I try to be aware of the manner in which I talk to people as well.

5 ) No. I try to share as the spirit leads and gives opportunity. I try to always self reflect if my attitudes and ways will add to the offense of       what I am communicating.

Now, I have a friend that has given up a Christian belief in exchange for a more Buddhist one. He still says he believes in Christ, and insists that we  believe in the same Christ. Sometimes we talk about that kind of stuff, and sometimes we don't. When I see that he is getting angry or that I am getting annoyed we stop. Then, maybe a month will go by and never talk about religion. But I don't stop associating myself with him. There is also someone else I work with that goes to a word of faith church and primarily reads stuff along the lines of that kind of theology. I detest Word of faith theology and have contempt for its leaders and teachers, but I have never had this conversation with this person as of yet. I know this person loves God and is saved, but I have not yet felt the right time to talk about my views with her. There was one time when I eluded to my feelings after she offered me a Kenneth Hagin book, but I didn't get that deep with it. Now, may there be a time when I talk about that stuff with her ? Sure, but in the mean time I feel its better to just talk with her about sound biblical teaching instead. I just wanted to give you a couple real life examples Thomas, to further give you an idea wear I'm coming from.

ThomasEversole wrote:

I come from a southern baptist stock myself.  The Catholics and Mormons I've met have a passion for Christ, and have obviously accepted him as their savior - and I concede that I haven't met all members of said "denomination".  I honestly haven't rooted around their doctrines to find "differences" (what I disagree with), but like I said before...  as long as they're 1) seeking Christ and His gift of salvation and 2) living like a Christian, the rest is small potatoes.

Thomas, from what I have picked up at this forum, you seem to believe that the punishment in the Lake of Fire will be finite ? In light of this possible belief, do you feel it has had an influence on your thinking about what others believe ? Because if it is true that Gods love will win in the end ( to borrow from Rob Bell ), who cares if Mormons believe that God was once a man when even atheists will be saved. Do see how a belief like that could impact what you feel are urgent and important ? Just a thought.