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Open Theism

Post by Black Rider on Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:47 pm

Not sure where to put this so if it needs to be moved go ahead. 

Open theism teaches that God doesn't know the future exhaustively, thus it is open. Proponents such as Greg Boyd and Clark Pinnock teach that God is omniscient in that he knows all there is to know but that he cannot know the future as it hasn't happened yet, making him the greatest historian of all time but not the God of the Bible who says this: Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. - Isaiah 46:9 Also, think about how many prophecies came to past throughout Scripture. As Joseph said to his brothers: “It was not you who sent me here, but God”!
 


Thus being, God is bound by his own creation, that time holds control over Him. It also necessarily means that God, while extremely smart and benevolent, it responding to His creation as best he can but he is constantly taking risks, adjusting to the actions of his creation and is at times thwarted by them.
This is all done in an attempt to explain evil and posit God as more relational but reducing God's greatness and majesty. 
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:43 pm

As Kerrick asked, I will remain civil.

Allow me to ask you this.

Who chose to start this thread, you or God?
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Kerrick on Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:51 pm

New Creation wrote:As Kerrick asked, I will remain civil.

cyclops cyclops cyclops

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Re: Open Theism

Post by Black Rider on Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:06 pm

New Creation-“Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD” Psalm 139:4
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Black Rider on Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:12 pm

Just as we see in Acts 2, man delivered up Jesus to be crucified according to the plan and foreknowledge of God, yet they are culpable for their actions.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:14 pm

Black Rider wrote:New Creation-“Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD” Psalm 139:4

Black Rider wrote:Just as we see in Acts 2, man delivered up Jesus to be crucified according to the plan and foreknowledge of God, yet they are culpable for their actions.

I'm curious if you will answer my question posed above. It's not a trap, it will help me gauge whether you are Calvinist, Arminian, or someone else.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Hardcore Christian on Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:18 pm

Did I miss a previous conversation Question

I'll just put my stance that I believe God is all knowing and already knows the future

Anyway sorry to post so unknowingly Surprised
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:21 pm

Hardcore Christian wrote:Did I miss a previous conversation Question

I'll just put my stance that I believe God is all knowing and already knows the future

Anyway sorry to post so unknowingly Surprised

This started in the Ted and animals thread. We was said to go here by the almighty Kerrick LOL.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Kerrick on Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:23 pm

New Creation wrote:...the almighty Kerrick LOL.

Actually if everyone could start referring to me as this... that'd be greeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaat.

...Minus the "LOL" part.  I'm afraid people may not take me seriously with that.  Actually, no one takes me seriously anyways so just forget it.  Just "Kerrick" is fine. flower

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Re: Open Theism

Post by Black Rider on Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:33 pm

I'm a Biblicist who believes salvation is by faith, through grace and not of ourselves. You can call me Calvinist if you want.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:36 pm

Black Rider wrote:I'm a Biblicist who believes salvation is by faith, through grace and not of ourselves. You can call me Calvinist if you want.

-I too am a Biblicist and your brother in Christ.
-I don't want to call you anything. But since you started by labeling those of my persuasion as Open Theists, I accepted that label to ease the discussion. We can dispense of labels, that is fine.

I'd still like for you to answer my question above.

If you want for me to answer any questions, then please ask some. You have not done so yet.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Andreas89 on Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:51 pm

As far as I understand the concept of Open Theism, I will be short (and blunt, perhaps).
Although I see its practical value to some extent, it's incorrect.

Will elaborate tomorrow Smile
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Hardcore Christian on Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:11 pm

Kerrick wrote:Actually, no one takes me seriously anyways so just forget it.  Just "Kerrick" is fine. flower
Whatever you say the Almighty Kerrick LOL
New Creation wrote:If you want for me to answer any questions, then please ask some. You have not done so yet.
Im pretty curious myself

So if you call yourself an Open Theist do you believe what the OP states?
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Black Rider on Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:25 pm

I, within the foreknowledge and plan of God, chose to start this thread. It did not happen or come as new knowledge to Him.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:27 pm

Hardcore Christian wrote:

New Creation wrote:If you want for me to answer any questions, then please ask some. You have not done so yet.
Im pretty curious myself

So if you call yourself an Open Theist do you believe what the OP states?

Thank you for asking the first question of me in this thread. I will try and quote feature and see how well this formats:

Black Rider wrote:Open theism teaches that God doesn't know the future exhaustively, thus it is open.

This is somewhat true. The future has not happened yet, and therefore is not knowable. However, God being who He is, can have reasonable knowledge most of the time what will happen because he knows human nature better than anyone.

Black Rider wrote:Proponents such as Greg Boyd and Clark Pinnock teach that God is omniscient in that he knows all there is to know but that he cannot know the future as it hasn't happened yet, making him the greatest historian of all time but not the God of the Bible...

I am not in full agreement here with Boyd (who is not a full Open Theist) and Pinnock, but I have great respect for both. My belief is that God knows what He chooses to know out of that which is knowable.

Black Rider wrote:Thus being, God is bound by his own creation, that time holds control over Him.

God cannot be bound by time, which in itself is not a thing. Time is a measurement. Strictly and simply speaking, time is the measurement between Event A and Event B. All events, whether they be spiritual or physical, happen in time. Timelessness is a creation of un-Biblical philosophers.

Black Rider wrote:It also necessarily means that God, while extremely smart and benevolent, it responding to His creation as best he can but he is constantly taking risks, adjusting to the actions of his creation and is at times thwarted by them.

Yes, God does take risks, for in relationship, there is risk. Was it not risk to create man in the first place and then find out that he does not love God in return? Absolute risk!

Black Rider wrote:This is all done in an attempt to explain evil and posit God as more relational but reducing God's greatness and majesty.

Is there some spiritual law somewhere that states that God cannot be both relational and great and majestic at the same time? Perhaps your definition of greatness and majesty are limited?
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:30 pm

Black Rider wrote:I, within the foreknowledge and plan of God, chose to start this thread. It did not happen or come as new knowledge to Him.

Thank you. Your answer was more than what I was looking for, but perhaps you were trying to predict future discussion. That's OK, let's go with it.

By your admission, God knew you would start the thread and then you started it.

This leads me to a new question, "Can God know a lie, or does He only know actual future events?"
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Black Rider on Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:35 pm

If God takes risks, he stops being all knowing, ever present and all powerful. You are positing that God created beings and circumstances that he could lose control over and had to go in damage control mode to try to fix the problem yet even with that, there is no assurance that he can as he continually has to respond to the unknowns.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Black Rider on Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:35 pm

Not sure what you're asking. Are you asking can God be deceived?
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Black Rider on Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:37 pm

Let me ask; can God fail?
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Re: Open Theism

Post by alldatndensum on Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:40 pm

I won't get into this deeply.  I will state what I believe and step aside.

I believe that God knows the future and is working to fulfill His plans.  If He does not know the future, then to me He is not all knowing, omnipresent, or omnipotent.  God fails to be, well, God if He doesn't know what will happen.  It also makes Him to be a liar with what the Bible declares about Himself.  If He is a liar because He really doesn't know the future, then He cannot be God or even good.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:45 pm

Black Rider wrote:If God takes risks, he stops being all knowing, ever present and all powerful. You are positing that God created beings and circumstances that he could lose control over and had to go in damage control mode to try to fix the problem yet even with that, there is no assurance that he can as he continually has to respond to the unknowns.

We must first establish where the term all knowing, or omniscience comes from. The same goes for omnipresence and omnipotence. I believe these are pagan concepts inserted into modern Christianity and they cannot be found in God's Word.

Yes, He created beings that He could lose control over. Does not God delegate authority to angels and men and does He not willingly give power to these individuals? I'm thinking of the "prince of the power of the air" and of "kings" like Saul and David. Some of these creatures rule within His will and some do not.

Black Rider wrote:Not sure what you're asking. Are you asking can God be deceived?

No. I'm asking if God can know a lie. I admit, it was somewhat rhetorical. No, God cannot know a lie. Therefore, if He knew ahead of time that you would start this thread, then that means you had no other choice than to start this thread, because God will not be a liar. He knows only truth.

Black Rider wrote:Let me ask; can God fail?

"Fail" is a broad word. Does God regret His actions? Yes. Not due to mistakes made, because He only makes decisions when he has all the facts, but due to the other parties making decisions that violate His will. This is why he "repented" that He had made man on the earth in Genesis 6:6.

Speaking of His will, is it not thwarted daily by evil men who sin?
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:47 pm

alldatndensum wrote:I won't get into this deeply.  I will state what I believe and step aside.

I believe that God knows the future and is working to fulfill His plans.  If He does not know the future, then to me He is not all knowing, omnipresent, or omnipotent.  God fails to be, well, God if He doesn't know what will happen.  It also makes Him to be a liar with what the Bible declares about Himself.  If He is a liar because He really doesn't know the future, then He cannot be God or even good.

Blessings brother! Even though you plan not to engage, I respectfully ask that you read along if you have the time because I am addressing and will address these statements.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Black Rider on Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:44 pm

Open theism has made a God who is not in control and is subject to his creation, a sort of demi-god. Omni-presence and omniscience are Biblical teachings that refute pagan teaching whose gods were limited in scope and control.  This is not the God of the Bible who says he has made everything for it's own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil. And let's consider Jesus words in John 13 when he told the Disciples that he would begin telling them things before they take place so that when they occur, “you may believe that I am he” (John 13:19). If Jesus was guessing, how could he tell Peter that he'd deny him three times? And if God has to learn from mans action we are left with a God who may have acted wrongly or unjustly and has to change course which leaves us a God who isn't completely trustworthy. 
Here's how God challenged the pagan gods to prove they were real in Isaiah's time:“Tell us what is to come hereafter, that we may know that you are gods” (Is. 41:23).
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Black Rider on Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:54 pm

Forgot to say that OT stems from a very Aristotelian idea that any proposition about the future can be neither true nor false and if taken to it's full conclusion, many Open Theists posit that God can be positively wrong.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:10 pm

Black Rider wrote:Open theism has made a God who is not in control and is subject to his creation, a sort of demi-god. Omni-presence and omniscience are Biblical teachings that refute pagan teaching whose gods were limited in scope and control.  This is not the God of the Bible who says he has made everything for it's own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil. And let's consider Jesus words in John 13 when he told the Disciples that he would begin telling them things before they take place so that when they occur, “you may believe that I am he” (John 13:19). If Jesus was guessing, how could he tell Peter that he'd deny him three times? And if God has to learn from mans action we are left with a God who may have acted wrongly or unjustly and has to change course which leaves us a God who isn't completely trustworthy. 
Here's how God challenged the pagan gods to prove they were real in Isaiah's time:“Tell us what is to come hereafter, that we may know that you are gods” (Is. 41:23).

Black Rider wrote:Forgot to say that OT stems from a very Aristotelian idea that any proposition about the future can be neither true nor false and if taken to it's full conclusion, many Open Theists posit that God can be positively wrong.

Making statements about Open Theism (as if to protect the members of this forum (they can take care of themselves)) is one thing. To actually address my statements and replies made above is another.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Black Rider on Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:24 pm

Ok then, you have made a God who is not in control. You say that God only makes decisions when he has all the facts but if he can't know the next minute then he can't know all the facts. New information is constantly coming in and He would be constantly having to learn and respond leaving Him unable to make a definitive decision and the possibility of being mistaken. 
The Bible tells us God chose us to be holy and blameless in Him before the creation of the world which couldn't be true if open theism is true.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Black Rider on Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:50 pm

If God can't know the future, you have no assurance of salvation when you die as that is a future event.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Staybrite on Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:14 pm

Fascinating discussion, hoping it remains civil.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:54 pm

Black Rider wrote:Ok then, you have made a God who is not in control. You say that God only makes decisions when he has all the facts but if he can't know the next minute then he can't know all the facts. New information is constantly coming in and He would be constantly having to learn and respond leaving Him unable to make a definitive decision and the possibility of being mistaken. 
The Bible tells us God chose us to be holy and blameless in Him before the creation of the world which couldn't be true if open theism is true.

I didn't make God. I observe Him using spiritual science just as you do. We gain our conclusions from His word.

Also, it is our holiness and blamelessness that was foreordained, not us ourselves.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Hardcore Christian on Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:28 pm

Black Rider wrote:If God can't know the future, you have no assurance of salvation when you die as that is a future event.
This is a great statement, thought I'd give ya props to this one Smile
Staybrite wrote:Fascinating discussion, hoping it remains civil.
Me as well, I like seeing both sides, not at each others throats

Things I have to ask you as well, Adam is:

How did God plan for the Messiah if He didn't know man was going to sin? Yet Christ was at Creation? (In the beginning was the Word)

How did God give prophecies in the Old Testament if he was just guessing? What if he got one wrong, wouldnt He then be a liar?
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:41 pm

Hardcore Christian wrote:
Black Rider wrote:If God can't know the future, you have no assurance of salvation when you die as that is a future event.
This is a great statement, thought I'd give ya props to this one Smile
Staybrite wrote:Fascinating discussion, hoping it remains civil.
Me as well, I like seeing both sides, not at each others throats

Things I have to ask you as well, Adam is:

How did God plan for the Messiah if He didn't know man was going to sin? Yet Christ was at Creation? (In the beginning was the Word)

How did God give prophecies in the Old Testament if he was just guessing? What if he got one wrong, wouldnt He then be a liar?

Not all prophecies came true. Would you like examples?
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Re: Open Theism

Post by sentient 6 on Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:47 am

I'm not sure how involved I want to get into this thread, but I guess I would like to share some observations about open theism from my study over the years. One is that I see open theism as a kind of " process theology " light. I definitely see the influence of process theology on the development of ideas within the idea of openness of God. Another thing I noticed is that open theism ( much like Molinism..middle knowledge view ) seems to be very philosophically driven. Now don't get me wrong, open theists truly believe that scripture supports their view. But I think their philosophy comes first, then scripture. Plus I grant that many do not believe that they are doing that.

Something else. Open theism is also sometimes referred too as free will theism and with good reason. I do not believe Christians that choose to embrace this view of God, do so to intentionally diminish Gods glory. I believe it is more about elevating a view of the free will of humans instead. The main premise seems to state that man has a autonomy free will, and as such, God cannot know the free will decisions of " truly " free people. God can predict and God can make a very good guess. But in the end, God must react to the free will choices of man and plan according to them. And yes, I surely know that not all open theists agree on stuff like that as well.

My view is from a classic reformed pov. I don't like to call myself a " Calvinist " because John Calvin didn't invent it. My views are what have classically been seen as springing forth from the Protestant reformation which involves many theologians. That said, I believe Gods has a decree before the creation of the world and what we see taking place in scripture is that decree taking place in time. Even if God is outside of space and time, He still relates to his creatures within space and time. You see the actual acting out of creatures within time that originated from Gods good decree and determination. More could be said, but I usually don't like to write long posts.


Last edited by sentient 6 on Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Open Theism

Post by sentient 6 on Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:01 am

Hardcore Christian wrote:

How did God plan for the Messiah if He didn't know man was going to sin? Yet Christ was at Creation?

Ah yes, and with that question I would like to posit a couple scriptures if no one minds.

Acts 2:23New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
23 this man, handed over to you according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of those outside the law.

1 Peter 1:20New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

20 He was destined before the foundation of the world, but was revealed at the end of the ages for your sake.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by sentient 6 on Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:24 am

Also, I always encourage people to study this stuff on their own. You have books by Greg Boyd, John Sanders, Pinnock on the open theism side. And then you have books by theologians such as Bruce Ware and John Frame on the other side of the debate.

There are people that don't like to do a lot of reading, so for them I recommend watching some debates on those subjects. Its usually a good way to get both sides represented in a clear and fair way. Here is some for those interested to view and take in as they feel led to do so. Very helpful in a getting the " gist " of the subject.







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Re: Open Theism

Post by Hardcore Christian on Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:52 am

Things I have to ask you as well, Adam is:

How did God plan for the Messiah if He didn't know man was going to sin? Yet Christ was at Creation? (In the beginning was the Word)

How did God give prophecies in the Old Testament if he was just guessing? What if he got one wrong, wouldnt He then be a liar?

Not all prophecies came true. Would you like examples?
Ok well thats a whole other discussion, anyway

What is your response to my first question

sentient 6 wrote:
Hardcore Christian wrote:

How did God plan for the Messiah if He didn't know man was going to sin? Yet Christ was at Creation?

Ah yes, and with that question I would like to posit a couple scriptures if no one minds.

Acts 2:23New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
23 this man, handed over to you according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of those outside the law.

1 Peter 1:20New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

20 He was destined before the foundation of the world, but was revealed at the end of the ages for your sake.
Exactly!
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Erasmus on Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:56 am

So why not both? The Bible supports both Open Theism and Classical Theism.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:08 am

Hardcore Christian wrote:


Things I have to ask you as well, Adam is:

How did God plan for the Messiah if He didn't know man was going to sin? Yet Christ was at Creation? (In the beginning was the Word)

It's called contingency. God can have more than one plan in place if He wishes.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:09 am

Erasmus wrote:So why not both? The Bible supports both Open Theism and Classical Theism.

They are not compatible.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Andreas89 on Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:41 am

I can see why the concept of open theism is appealing; since we are bound by time, it might be a way of understanding your dynamic relationship with God better. But let's get this straight: God is absolutely different from us in so many ways, let's not forget that He is Mystery. He has made Himself known indeed, but it would be rather limiting to say that we can understand His nature fully. This notion indicates the difficulties that come with speaking about God's Being by the way, whatever way you go.

I think that both parties concerning this subject have something useful to say, and I admit that whatever side you are on, you'll have difficulty explaining certain things. Having said that, allow me to take a side: I think that the concept of open theism is incorrect in the end. It is a wrong way to deal with the concept of predetermination. It may be helpful to clarify certain things about one's relationship with God, because we have only our perspective on time, whereas I believe that God is present in the past, present and future (which is not timelessness, it's God being Master of Time). So just because we can't known the future, does not mean that God can't; on the contrary I'd say.

Concerning your ability to make choices I'd say this. God knows fully well what choices I will make, but from a human perspective it is still freedom. Of course, because God already knows what will happen and will allow it to happen, it may seem as if I actually wasn't free at all. Maybe that's true, maybe not. But what does matter is that from our perspective (concerning time), we do have choices. Whether or not you are free in making them does not matter; just like with the concept of predestination. We were already written in the palm of God's hand before the beginning of time, but predestination was never meant as an excuse to not ask for God's help in your salvation (speaking from experience here by the way); it's meant for us christians to know how safe we are. In other words, it's only relevant from one side of history.

I do understand that in your there might be some grey area between the present and the things that are set in the future (the second coming comes to mind), but I don't think it's correct to be so sure about God's nescience about what happens in between. I think the certainty with which you take your stance is the cause for people to react so intensely.

It's not much, and it was really difficult to write these thoughts down in English. I have absolutely no hopes of convicing you on this point, but I think it's important to add some nuances to the discussion.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:58 am

God has not only told us in His word that He regrets actions He has made and that He changes His mind (Genesis 6:6, Hezekiah, Nineveh). He has even told us that He has been swayed by human request and opinion (Moses and Abraham specifically). It is so incredibly clear to me.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:04 am

Hardcore Christian wrote:
Things I have to ask you as well, Adam is:

How did God plan for the Messiah if He didn't know man was going to sin? Yet Christ was at Creation? (In the beginning was the Word)

How did God give prophecies in the Old Testament if he was just guessing? What if he got one wrong, wouldnt He then be a liar?

Not all prophecies came true. Would you like examples?
Ok well thats a whole other discussion, anyway

No, it's central to this discussion. Prophecies fail because people change. Look at Nineveh. God said it would be destroyed and it was not.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Andreas89 on Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:10 am

Those are indeed the main points you can make in favour of open theism. But it's good you mention Nineveh, since I just read the book of Jonah.
In chapter 4 I read about an attribute of our unchainging God, namely being regretful about the punishment He had in mind. Jonah apparently found this as tacky as could be (to understand his frustration, see his previous history with Jerobeam II). In other words: regret about wrath is an attribute of the Eternal and Unchanging. In this case, I understand only for 50% your stance on this, yet you express 100% certainty. That's why I don't trust you on this particular subject.

Maybe it's not that open theism isn't true; it's an incomplete truth.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Andreas89 on Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:10 am

New Creation wrote:
Hardcore Christian wrote:
Things I have to ask you as well, Adam is:

How did God plan for the Messiah if He didn't know man was going to sin? Yet Christ was at Creation? (In the beginning was the Word)

How did God give prophecies in the Old Testament if he was just guessing? What if he got one wrong, wouldnt He then be a liar?

Not all prophecies came true. Would you like examples?
Ok well thats a whole other discussion, anyway

No, it's central to this discussion. Prophecies fail because people change. Look at Nineveh. God said it would be destroyed and it was not.
So you say that Nineveh was never destroyed?
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:41 am

On a personal note, I have withheld this stuff for 5 years from you all. When I first joined in early 2012, I told you all that I had unconventional beliefs and I believed it was better for all of us that I not share those.

Well a man cannot keep silent forever. These are my convictions. These are my beliefs. They are part of who I am.

I was not always open view, I was what most would call an Arminian until my mid-20s. It was then, about 18 years ago, that I came across this teaching from God's word. Even then I did not accept it outright. It took several years of study, discussion and debate, before I accepted it as my own.

Yes, the first verse that grabbed me was Genesis 6:6, but you want to know the biggest word in the Bible for me on this subject? It is the word "if".

I asked many years ago, "How can a God who knows the future exhaustively use the word 'if'"? "If my people, who are called by my name..."

If? If? If? How can God use "if"? And that's when it hit me. It is not a limitation of God to not know the future exhaustively, it shows that He is a God who cares about relationships, and the beauty in the risk that can come from the other party (Israel or individuals) choosing to love Him willingly.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by Andreas89 on Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:01 am

Beauty is a subjective term. Do you think you can conclusively say what God considers beautiful?
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Re: Open Theism

Post by sentient 6 on Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:01 am

New Creation wrote:On a personal note, I have withheld this stuff for 5 years from you all. When I first joined in early 2012, I told you all that I had unconventional beliefs and I believed it was better for all of us that I not share those.

Well a man cannot keep silent forever. These are my convictions. These are my beliefs. They are part of who I am.

I was not always open view, I was what most would call an Arminian until my mid-20s. It was then, about 18 years ago, that I came across this teaching from God's word. Even then I did not accept it outright. It took several years of study, discussion and debate, before I accepted it as my own.

Yes, the first verse that grabbed me was Genesis 6:6, but you want to know the biggest word in the Bible for me on this subject? It is the word "if".

I asked many years ago, "How can a God who knows the future exhaustively use the word 'if'"? "If my people, who are called by my name..."

If? If? If? How can God use "if"? And that's when it hit me. It is not a limitation of God to not know the future exhaustively, it shows that He is a God who cares about relationships, and the beauty in the risk that can come from the other party (Israel or individuals) choosing to love Him willingly.



Thanks for sharing this NC. I've always said that a consistent view of Arminianism will lead to the view commonly known today as open theism.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by sentient 6 on Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:04 am

Isaiah 14:26-27New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
26 This is the plan that is planned
    concerning the whole earth;
and this is the hand that is stretched out
    over all the nations.
27 For the Lord of hosts has planned,
    and who will annul it?
His hand is stretched out,
    and who will turn it back?





In light of verses such as this, would be fair to say that the open theist would answer " Adam, Abraham, or Jesus could have changed Gods plans " ?
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:07 am

sentient 6 wrote:
New Creation wrote:On a personal note, I have withheld this stuff for 5 years from you all. When I first joined in early 2012, I told you all that I had unconventional beliefs and I believed it was better for all of us that I not share those.

Well a man cannot keep silent forever. These are my convictions. These are my beliefs. They are part of who I am.

I was not always open view, I was what most would call an Arminian until my mid-20s. It was then, about 18 years ago, that I came across this teaching from God's word. Even then I did not accept it outright. It took several years of study, discussion and debate, before I accepted it as my own.

Yes, the first verse that grabbed me was Genesis 6:6, but you want to know the biggest word in the Bible for me on this subject? It is the word "if".

I asked many years ago, "How can a God who knows the future exhaustively use the word 'if'"? "If my people, who are called by my name..."

If? If? If? How can God use "if"? And that's when it hit me. It is not a limitation of God to not know the future exhaustively, it shows that He is a God who cares about relationships, and the beauty in the risk that can come from the other party (Israel or individuals) choosing to love Him willingly.



Thanks for sharing this NC. I've always said that a consistent view of Arminianism will lead to the view commonly known today as open theism.

You are correct. My Southern Baptist pastor told me when I was in my late teens that he did not understand the issue. He said the following "I will never understand our freedom in choosing Christ. As we enter Heaven someday, there will be a sign on the outside that says 'All may freely enter.' and when you've then entered Heaven, the back side of the sign says 'Chosen before the foundations of the earth'".

It was something like that. He did not help me that day in my current beliefs. He actually sent me down the path that led to where I am today. He didn't send me towards determinism, predestination, and Calvinism, he sent me away from it. He sent me towards truth and he never knew it.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by New Creation on Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:14 am

sentient 6 wrote:Isaiah 14:26-27New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
26 This is the plan that is planned
    concerning the whole earth;
and this is the hand that is stretched out
    over all the nations.
27 For the Lord of hosts has planned,
    and who will annul it?
His hand is stretched out,
    and who will turn it back?





In light of verses such as this, would be fair to say that the open theist would answer " Adam, Abraham, or Jesus could have changed Gods plans " ?

Yes, it is very fair.

-God told Moses He would DESTROY Israel and start over with just Moses. Moses stayed His hand.
-God told Saul his throne would be forever. Saul changed that plan by turning to evil.
-God told Abraham to go forth to a land that I will show you. And when Abraham got there, he let Lot choose first.
-God told Moses that he would be His mouthpiece to Pharaoh. Moses complained so God relented and said Aaron could be the mouthpiece.

So yes, it is abundantly clear to me that God changes His mind.
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Re: Open Theism

Post by sentient 6 on Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:15 am

New Creation wrote:

No, it's central to this discussion. Prophecies fail because people change. Look at Nineveh. God said it would be destroyed and it was not.

Can ask you something ? Why do you not believe it is reasonable to say that this is simply how a timeless God relates to beings who live in time ? One, God is relating to us and communicating in a way that we can understand. Sometimes we can miss some things in Johan. Johan was mad at God because he wanted to extend grace to a people that Johan thought did not deserve it. God knew what his plans were all along, and this is an example of those plans taking place in time with all the cause and effects factored in. Gods shows grace and mercy according to his sovereign plans and purpose. And maybe this was more for Johan than it was for the people of Nineveh.
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Re: Open Theism

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