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Actually, Dusty has a point here, where are the miracles? The Catholic Church claims that they have plenty, but I haven't seen any. The best explanation is either that Christianity is false, or that after the Apostolic age miracles became rare, as thay were in Old Testament times. We read about many then, but they weren't as many, and certainly not widespread as we think.

Pro-Zak wrote:Actually, Dusty has a point here, where are the miracles? The Catholic Church claims that they have plenty, but I haven't seen any. The best explanation is either that Christianity is false, or that after the Apostolic age miracles became rare, as thay were in Old Testament times. We read about many then, but they weren't as many, and certainly not widespread as we think.

Yeah, I get where he's coming from... I just don't think it was necessary to say.

Maybe it was, certainly sheds some light on why some leave the faith, especially if they're coming from some form that claims all these supernatural gifts only to find anecdotal evidence for them at best.

While it does seem miracles are less common today than when Jesus was on earth, they do still happen. A good example is Ivan Moiseyev, a Christian who lived in Soviet Russia who experienced several unexplainable miracles. One of which was the complete overnight restoration of his arm which had been run over and completely crushed, doctors saw it before and after the healing and had no explanation for what happened. Later he suffered severe persecution under the Soviet regime, and ultimately martyrdom. At one point his captors made him stand outside naked in the Russian winter all night, saying they would allow him to come inside if he would recant the faith and become loyal to the regime. He stood out all night and not only survived, but suffered no ill effects and said God kept him warm. If you can and are interested I recommend his biography, “Vanya” by Myrna Grant, it’s quite interesting

^^Great book.

We also have to remember that while the Bible does report a lot of miracles, it also covers thousands of years of history in which those miracles occur. It’s not as if all the miracles of Scripture happen over a couple of weeks.

We should also remember that regeneration itself is a miracle.

I have that guy on ignore. It's awesome.

It not only seems that there were more miracles in Jesus time here, they really were more!

Pro-Zak wrote:It not only seems that there were more miracles in Jesus time here, they really were more!

Absolutely, which makes perfect sense during his incarnation.

Pethead wrote:

Pro-Zak wrote:It not only seems that there were more miracles in Jesus time here, they really were more!

Absolutely, which makes perfect sense during his incarnation.

Right. He had to establish... ratify His authority and claims.

scottmitchell74 wrote:I have that guy on ignore.  It's awesome.  

Does ignore mean you can't see his posts, or just his posts don't show on the "new posts" page?

StevenCressler wrote:

scottmitchell74 wrote:I have that guy on ignore.  It's awesome.  

Does ignore mean you can't see his posts, or just his posts don't show on the "new posts" page?

You can’t see his posts unless you click on them.

Dustofyears wrote:yes Christ's ministry was part of said magic times. The only times, you'll note, when all these special magical happenings occurred. All those years as a Christian I saw not one miracle and still have never witnessed a miracle, especially the super duper kind in those special biblical times that seemed to be common ground. For I tell you, if that happened, there would be more than a few heads turning. Alas...not so much as a rod turning into a snake.

Now be honest, have you seen a rod turn into a snake lately, or a sea part so an army can cross it...or heck, even someone truly healed, a limb grow from a stump... a completely crippled person walk as if had never been ailed... I, for one, have not.

Nor has ANY God shown face and turned up out of the blue and walked the earth since those magical biblical times, written down in a book, a book written by men no one knows.

Can you honestly tell me YOU, yourself, have witnessed any of this.

Avoidance again... apart from one person, which I did not expect but thank you Zak, answered honestly. The tough questions always get avoided and fingers start flying in all other directions, it's always the way.

I'll try ask one more time, then I'll let it be... Have any of YOU not some story you heard about what someone else saw, have YOU with your own EYES ever witnessed anything like the above. I never did as a Christian and still have not as a Non believer. Just be honest, that's all I am asking, and answer the question honestly. I can answer for you— You have not.

Yet biblical times are littered with the stuff. Then once biblical times stop, humans no longer live to hundreds of years old or 1000, all this stuff happens in biblical times in the frame of a book written by men no one knows.


So have any of you...

seth wrote:You just can’t help yourself, can you?
Seriously, what pleasure do you get out of taking every possible opportunity to talk crap about Christianity on a Christian forum? I know in the past you said it is based on anger against your upbringing that you see as a lie. Does it help you feel better to try to spread your bitterness around every opportunity you get? Is it worth it holding onto that anger, or is it only making you miserable?
Btw I don’t believe Julius Caesar ever existed. I also don’t believe in atoms, or that China exists, or that I have a liver. I have never seen any of those things with my own eyes after all

It's not pleasure Seth. I get no pleasure. It is anger, anger against religion, especially white light religions. I am not mocking you as a person. But Christians and Muslims/ Christianity and Isalm, are the most aggressive religions ever known to the world. They make huge, wild, out of this world claims (like people living for 1000 years when there is zero evidence for it, and that's no where near the biggest wild claim). They claim to know GOd on a personal level and seem to know what God is, they call out anyone that does not believe their huge wild claims as "sinners" and mock them in their own special way (such as the picture below from Mangus)

I do it because I'd love to see people set free.

MagnusPrime wrote:How they think we view them:


How we actually view them:

Mangus, I have no doubt there are many who picture me as my profile pic, or would even suggest I'm Satan or a demon at work through an unwitting or an actively knowing, subject. I know how the song goes. It's designed that way.

seth wrote:While it does seem miracles are less common today than when Jesus was on earth, they do still happen. A good example is Ivan Moiseyev, a Christian who lived in Soviet Russia who experienced several unexplainable miracles. One of which was the complete overnight restoration of his arm which had been run over and completely crushed, doctors saw it before and after the healing and had no explanation for what happened. Later he suffered severe persecution under the Soviet regime, and ultimately martyrdom. At one point his captors made him stand outside naked in the Russian winter all night, saying they would allow him to come inside if he would recant the faith and become loyal to the regime. He stood out all night and not only survived, but suffered no ill effects and said God kept him warm. If you can and are interested I recommend his biography, “Vanya” by Myrna Grant, it’s quite interesting

Yes, that's right, that's how it usually goes— you read, you got told, someone said, I heard a testimony... but did YOU witness it or anything like I mentioned in the above or anything that happened in those special, one of lifetime only, biblical times. 

And the only people that would block me are those not sure of their own faith. It happens all the time when the questions get tough.


You are right though, I can't help myself. I see ridiculous statements like humans once lived to 1000 years old in a special select time frame  called the biblical times when everything was once larger than life, and I can't help but push back against  these ridiculous claims that have zero evidence to back them up, apart from a book written by a bunch of unknowns, that says so.

It's ok just to say   "I don't know"

I don't know what this life thing is all about. It's more honest that filling the gap with a God no one has seen or can prove just because it makes you feel better that one day when you pass from this world you're going to see grandma again. It's called the "unknown" for a reason, and until someone can show God through miracles as stated in the bible or God himself, be it God of the bible or Allah or any other thousands of the gods everyone is claiming as truth, then there is nothing wrong with simply calling it "the unknown".

There is nothing wrong with not knowing.

Dustofyears wrote:



You are right though, I can't help myself. I see ridiculous statements like humans once lived to 1000 years old in a special select time frame  called the biblical times when everything was once larger than life, and I can't help but push back against  these ridiculous claims that have zero evidence to back them up, apart from a book written by a bunch of unknowns, that says so.

It's ok just to say   "I don't know"

It's ok just to say "Thank you very much for the accurate portrait."

I have, in fact witnessed several miracles... every day my brother goes without somehow getting himself killed is a miracle in my book  

On a serious note, I have not witnessed any myself, aside from things like new lifes being born, which you wouldn't consider a miracle... but if I ever do, I'll make sure to tell you.

And come on, you don't think Magnus's post was at least a little funny? I would have in your situation...

^That's two Christians: Zak and Steven, who have admitted to never seeing a miracle or any wonders in their time as a Christian (which I assume has been a few years). Thank you guys for answering the question.

I have not personally witnessed a physical miracle. (My grandmother’s conversion shortly before death after decades of seemingly unanswered prayers and her being completely hostile to Christianity could be considered miraculous, but I think you are strictly referring to physical incidents that go beyond the laws of nature). That is not the “gotcha” you seem to think it is. Just like my belief in the existence of George Washington, China, and my liver, I still believe in them despite not having witnessed one myself, based on testimonies of others. And not only the ones which occurred in biblical times, but occasionally in modern times as well (see what I said above about Ivan Moiseyev for example). Limiting yourself to only believing in what you see with your own eyes is a severe self-imposed intellectual handicap.

^I'm not trying to get a "Gotcha" moment. I'm trying to get everyone to answer a straight question and admit what we all know. None of you have see n a miracle or wonders, especially as written in the magical biblical times. 

Now those things that defy laws of physics just don't happen anymore, and most people suddenly die before 100... 

So far that makes—



3 of you. Thank you for answering the question honestly. I appreciate it.

Dustofyears wrote:^That's two Christians: Zak and Steven, who have admitted to never seeing a miracle or any wonders in their time as a Christian (which I assume has been a few years). Thank you guys for answering the question.

I have technically seen wonders. I see one every day I'm at home and have for nearly a year now. I'll refer to him as Raven, as that's what we call him sometimes and my mom probably doesn't want me giving his name out on the internet lol. Every other baby is also a wonder. Everytime I go out in the wilderness and see an animal, or a waterfall, or the sunlight coming through the trees, that's a wonder. When I look up at the stars at night I see millions of wonders. No matter how much pain it might cause me, every time I see a girl that makes me feel things, I see a wonder. There's many things that aren't wonders in the sense you mean, but they are wonderful. Too wonderful, IMO, to be anything other than a design, and that designer would have to much better than me. I can design cool creatures from distorting and ampilifying elements from things God created, but I couldn't design one myself, and if it did I'm sure it would be nowhere near babies or mothers. That's proof enough for me.

You know what? I think you’ve convinced me. I no longer believe in God or miracles, as neither me, Zak or Steven have witnessed one. I also no longer believe in George Washington for the same reason. The historians were probably lying anyway, just to make up a cool story about my country’s origin. Regardless, I couldn’t take their word, as that would be an act of faith, and faith is for brainwashed sheep.

Seriously though, it is clear you intended it as a gotcha, as you are implying that if we haven’t personally witnessed a miracle, that implies that miracles and Christianity as a whole are fake. Also you misrepresent what we actually believe, saying we think miracles don’t happen at all anymore. I don’t believe anyone here is a full cessationist as far as I know. They are rarer than when Jesus was on earth, but again see what I said about Ivan Moiseyev, and there are other examples in modern times as well.

Dustofyears wrote:^I'm not trying to get a "Gotcha" moment. I'm trying to get everyone to answer a straight question and admit what we all know. None of you have see n a miracle or wonders, especially as written in the magical biblical times. 

"Confess!"

Keep on trying. You'll win the contest for that new Fedora yet!

And addressing your statement “I just want to see people set free.” Be honest with yourself. Are you really free? A life consumed by anger and bitterness doesn’t sound very free to me. I am free from that. And you can be as well, but it seems at this point you’d rather stay in prison. If you are familiar with the final Chronicles of Narnia book, The Last Battle, the scene with the dwarfs in the stable comes to mind.

^Most underrated Narnia book imo

My favorite story-wise is The Silver Chair, but yeah The Last Battle is probably the second most spiritually relevant and meaningful of the series (after Lion, Witch and Wardrobe). Except for that one scene with the follower of Tash who made it to heaven, that showed a theological error imo (which Lewis apparently consistently believed)

seth wrote:My favorite story-wise is The Silver Chair, but yeah The Last Battle is probably the second most spiritually relevant and meaningful of the series (after Lion, Witch and Wardrobe). Except for that one scene with the follower of Tash who made it to heaven, that showed a theological error imo (which Lewis apparently consistently believed)

Silver Chair is another favorite (though tbf all 7 are lol). The last chapter of Last Battle is probably the only book chapter that always makes me tear up. It's beautiful.

Dustofyears wrote:

TZ75 wrote:If we were in the ancient times of the Bible, 100 years is like a young teenager. Some of those people lived to almost 1000. 

And here's the kicker, they didn't even have the medicines or technology we have today!!! It's quite amazing when you really think about it, how some people lived to 1000 years and other's hundreds in those days, yet many in medieval times lived only to 30 sumthin years.... unbelievable almost... almost... but as we know, those old biblical times were always more magic than other times, that's when miracles were happening left right and center and god openly displayed his power and even showed up a time or two. Since those times... not even a peek-a-boo or a burning bush or a parted sea...not even a rod turning into a snake... and we all be dropping dead and lucky to reach 100.

I just assume they lived longer back then because they were more pure from Adam’s less blemished genetics. Compared to thousands of years of different diseases and sicknesses among us…

The medieval times people were filthy. They threw their excrement on the streets and all kinds of nasty stuff. Bathing was mostly unheard of (unless you were royalty).