Re: Classic Thrash Bands v Modern Thrash Bands

by average joe Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:54 pm

I think there would be a tremendous amount of excitement if some of the classics were released today, but since it’s been close to 30 years since a classic was released, we won’t know until either a modern band makes a modern classic or one of the classic bands actually return to form. Deliverance, Believer, Vengeance, Seventh Angel, Tourniquet, and Detritus have all failed to return to form. Verdict is still out on Betrayal if rumors are true. I will say that Sacrament creates the most excitement if the news that broke a few days ago ended up being true because they didn’t play games on either release. No filler, no weak albums in the mix or attempts at genre switching changes in style, etc. Time just ran out on them with thrash fizzling out in the early 90s during the dark ages of metal. 30 years and Wolfe providing guest vocals on the Motivik cover creates intrigue and makes you wonder if something could be brewing.

That said, Temple of Blood likely has the best chance to create a classic if they can significantly improve the vocal style/delivery and production because the music and songwriting should be there. Deathless also has a chance because they have all the elements in place + modern production; however, no updates in over a year is concerning. Mashiaj is limited by vocals in another language. Ritual Servant is to Slayer what Eternal Decision and Jesus Freaks were to Metallica. They have potential and really appreciate what they are doing lyrically but they could benefit from more variation in tempos, vocals, and songwriting. Chafin and Rodgers claim they are working on new material for D as part of a re-release of the last one. Better be different if they want to live up to the return to form claim they previously promised with Subversive Kind. Consecrator has been promising new material for years. Brings me back to the idea of Sacrament doing something new and the fervor that it would create.

by Temple of Blood Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:41 pm

A lot to talk about here, so here goes. I'm curious what the rest of you think as well.

average joe wrote:I think there would be a tremendous amount of excitement if some of the classics were released today, but since it’s been close to 30 years since a classic was released, we won’t know until either a modern band makes a modern classic or one of the classic bands actually return to form.

I think these releases:
Extol - Synergy
Angel of Sodom - Divine Retribution
Ultimatum - Mechanics of Perilous Times
Ritual Servent - Metallum Evangelii
Mosh-Pit Justice - Fighting the Poison, The Fifth of Doom
Hating Evil - Rotten Inside
Freakings - Rise of Violence
Once Dead - Visions of Hell
Red Lamb - s/t
Sacredfice - s/t

are better than these releases:
Detritus - Perpetual Defiance, If But for One
Seventh Angel - The Torment
Believer - Extraction from Mortality
Betrayal - Renaissance by Death
Deliverance - any album except the first 3
Tourniquet - any album except Stop the Bleeding, Pathogenic Occular Dissonance, and Microscopic View
Thresher - anything

and I'm only including full-length albums here, not demos/EPs or else I would include Sword of Judgement, Join the Dead, Avenger of Blood - Celestial War, and Absurd2.

So looking at that, that's a pretty strong showing for the modern scene. I'm also not including my own band so that evaluation depends on where you think we fall in there, an also where you think we fall after our new album drops.

I'd encourage people to spend more time with those modern releases I listed because I think they hold up quite nicely but may not elicit the nostalgic feelings of the subsequent list until you've listened to them as many times.

Deliverance, Believer, Vengeance, Seventh Angel, Tourniquet, and Detritus have all failed to return to form.

Agreed 100%

Verdict is still out on Betrayal if rumors are true.

I think the chance of this band putting together a good lineup, working hard enough to create and release a good new album, and make an album that thrashers enjoy is close to 0%.

I've been wrong before though and hope to be wrong on this.

Besides, isn't Martyr back together? I'm afraid though that their style will be too punkish.

I will say that Sacrament creates the most excitement if the news that broke a few days ago ended up being true because they didn’t play games on either release.

I'm very skeptical of this for many reasons.

1. No official announcement from the band
2. No one from that lineup was playing thrash in 30 years
3. People being in a different place in their life/musical tastes now 3 decades later.
4. Even their 2nd album had a ton more "groove" than the chaotic riffiness of the debut album.
5. It takes a ton of time/effort to write a new album, at least once that is worth listening to over and over.

I have been wrong before, and may be wrong now, but I personally see this going nowhere.

No filler, no weak albums in the mix or attempts at genre switching changes in style, etc. Time just ran out on them with thrash fizzling out in the early 90s during the dark ages of metal.

The playing ability was still high and they had really good production but again, too much groove and not enough headbanging on that 2nd one for my tastes.

30 years and Wolfe providing guest vocals on the Motivik cover creates intrigue and makes you wonder if something could be brewing.

Since Wolfe is not said to be part of the reformed lineup his guest spot is neither here nor there when determining what Sacrament could sound like now.

That said, Temple of Blood likely has the best chance to create a classic if they can significantly improve the vocal style/delivery and production because the music and songwriting should be there.

Vocals will definitely be better and more aggressive than before.

Deathless also has a chance because they have all the elements in place + modern production; however, no updates in over a year is concerning.

True. I do hope they manage to pull it off though.

Brings me back to the idea of Sacrament doing something new and the fervor that it would create.

I've been excited about a lot of thrash reunions that didn't end up being all that great. I mean, the shows could be cool hearing the old songs but the new songs often just aren't that hot. True for secular and Christian metal.

by average joe Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:34 am

Great post and great conversation! I’m going to revisit all of these or listen for the first time. Never heard of Red Lamb or Mosh-Pit Justice. Can you rank these for us?

Extol - Synergy
Angel of Sodom - Divine Retribution
Ultimatum - Mechanics of Perilous Times
Ritual Servent - Metallum Evangelii
Mosh-Pit Justice - Fighting the Poison, The Fifth of Doom
Hating Evil - Rotten Inside
Freakings - Rise of Violence
Once Dead - Visions of Hell
Red Lamb - s/t
Sacredfice - s/t

by strangerhoncho Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:11 am

Temple of Blood wrote:A lot to talk about here, so here goes. I'm curious what the rest of you think as well.

average joe wrote:I think there would be a tremendous amount of excitement if some of the classics were released today, but since it’s been close to 30 years since a classic was released, we won’t know until either a modern band makes a modern classic or one of the classic bands actually return to form.

I think these releases:
Extol - Synergy
Angel of Sodom - Divine Retribution
Ultimatum - Mechanics of Perilous Times
Ritual Servent - Metallum Evangelii
Mosh-Pit Justice - Fighting the Poison, The Fifth of Doom
Hating Evil - Rotten Inside
Freakings - Rise of Violence
Once Dead - Visions of Hell
Red Lamb - s/t
Sacredfice - s/t

are better than these releases:
Detritus - Perpetual Defiance, If But for One
Seventh Angel - The Torment
Believer - Extraction from Mortality
Betrayal - Renaissance by Death
Deliverance - any album except the first 3
Tourniquet - any album except Stop the Bleeding, Pathogenic Occular Dissonance, and Microscopic View
Thresher - anything

and I'm only including full-length albums here, not demos/EPs or else I would include Sword of Judgement, Join the Dead, Avenger of Blood - Celestial War, and Absurd2.

So looking at that, that's a pretty strong showing for the modern scene. I'm also not including my own band so that evaluation depends on where you think we fall in there, an also where you think we fall after our new album drops.

I'd encourage people to spend more time with those modern releases I listed because I think they hold up quite nicely but may not elicit the nostalgic feelings of the subsequent list until you've listened to them as many times.

I would say some of the newer releases might be technically better or at least as good, but I just don't think they have the personality or memorable riffs and songwriting of the classic albums you think they're better than. The new bands' riffs are mostly interchangeable to my ears, and I can rarely remember a single song from them after listening. They're paint-by-numbers. Whereas every song stands apart (to me) on those classic albums, and they throw in so many unique artistic touches that you just don't find with the newer bands.

Ultimatum is great, as is of course Extol, but I don't find myself revisiting those albums.

Ritual Servant is overrated, boring and same-y to me.

Freakings have their moments but most songs sound exactly the same. Angel of Sodom and Hating Evil I liked better but I listened to them once and forgot to revisit -- probably because they lacked personality and distinct songs. I'll give them more spins.

The production for Once Dead is so bad, I can't even hear the songs (which was a crying shame since I had such high hopes after being at their reunion show). And I thought the vocals were terrible. They should have kept Scott Waters.

The other albums I haven't heard yet but thanks for the heads up!

One recent album I'm digging is Brotality--Worldwide Desolation. It's thrash with some groove and other elements. Dumb name, unfortunately, but it sounds fresh and unique to my ears, with distinct songs and unique vocals. Not at classic level yet, but they're definitely the most promising Christian metal band I've heard in awhile.

by MagnusPrime Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:45 am

strangerhoncho wrote:

The production for Once Dead is so bad, I can't even hear the songs (which was a crying shame since I had such high hopes after being at their reunion show). And I thought the vocals were terrible. They should have kept Scott Waters.

THIS. I was REALLY looking forward to a Once Dead studio album with Scott on vocals. They should have picked up where they left off (before the split with Martinez) with a good thrash/death hybrid album. Instead we got an attempt at a more modern "core-ish" approach with a horrible production apparently from the St. Anger Recording Academy. I listened to it maybe twice before getting rid of it.

by Raegoul Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:43 am

I couldn’t figure out how to quote properly but this goes to Temple of Blood: Believer Extraction is pretty much the blueprint and pinnacle of Christian thrash records so how exactly is any new record going to be better than it? With all due respect etc. Very Happy

by Son of Nun Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:35 pm

strangerhoncho wrote:I would say some of the newer releases might be technically better or at least as good, but I just don't think they have the personality or memorable riffs and songwriting of the classic albums you think they're better than. The new bands' riffs are mostly interchangeable to my ears, and I can rarely remember a single song from them after listening. They're paint-by-numbers. Whereas every song stands apart (to me) on those classic albums, and they throw in so many unique artistic touches that you just don't find with the newer bands.

Ultimatum is great, as is of course Extol, but I don't find myself revisiting those albums.

Ritual Servant is overrated, boring and same-y to me.

Freakings have their moments but most songs sound exactly the same. Angel of Sodom and Hating Evil I liked better but I listened to them once and forgot to revisit -- probably because they lacked personality and distinct songs. I'll give them more spins.

The production for Once Dead is so bad, I can't even hear the songs (which was a crying shame since I had such high hopes after being at their reunion show). And I thought the vocals were terrible. They should have kept Scott Waters.

I would say that when we're talking about "personality or memorable riffs" a lot of it comes down to how many listens the album has gotten and personal taste. I think this comes out in your comment about Angel of Sodom and Hating Evil. It's really not possible to judge an album at all after one spin. Even with some of the classics it took me quite a few spins to appreciate them. I had to listen to "Stop the Bleeding" quite a few times before the genius of that album unfolded for me and now it's one of my favorites. I find myself pulling fairly equally from older and newer albums when I reach for Thrash because I do keep coming back to stuff like Ritual Servant, Hating Evil, Mashiaj, and Herd. Sure, I haven't heard anything that I think is on the creative level of "Stop the Bleeding" or "The Torment" but there are great new albums out there.

Temple of Blood wrote:I think these releases:
Extol - Synergy
Angel of Sodom - Divine Retribution
Ultimatum - Mechanics of Perilous Times
Ritual Servent - Metallum Evangelii
Mosh-Pit Justice - Fighting the Poison, The Fifth of Doom
Hating Evil - Rotten Inside
Freakings - Rise of Violence
Once Dead - Visions of Hell
Red Lamb - s/t
Sacredfice - s/t

are better than these releases:
Detritus - Perpetual Defiance, If But for One
Seventh Angel - The Torment
Believer - Extraction from Mortality
Betrayal - Renaissance by Death
Deliverance - any album except the first 3
Tourniquet - any album except Stop the Bleeding, Pathogenic Occular Dissonance, and Microscopic View
Thresher - anything

I think this illustrates the point well that there are some new albums that are better than the old and that age does not necessarily correlate with quality. I believe that most of the best albums in Christian Thrash do happen to be classics, but if I made a Top 10, I think a couple new records would sneak in. While there are probably some objective qualities one could point to, which bands fit into these categories is also largely subjective. I can't stand that Once Dead album, but I love "The Torment," "Extraction," and Thresher. I don't care for Detritus or later Tourniquet/Deliverance (though I don't understand the issue with "Pyscho Surgery.")

by strangerhoncho Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:39 pm

Son of Nun wrote:
I would say that when we're talking about "personality or memorable riffs" a lot of it comes down to how many listens the album has gotten and personal taste. I think this comes out in your comment about Angel of Sodom and Hating Evil. It's really not possible to judge an album at all after one spin. Even with some of the classics it took me quite a few spins to appreciate them. I had to listen to "Stop the Bleeding" quite a few times before the genius of that album unfolded for me and now it's one of my favorites. I find myself pulling fairly equally from older and newer albums when I reach for Thrash because I do keep coming back to stuff like Ritual Servant, Hating Evil, Mashiaj, and Herd. Sure, I haven't heard anything that I think is on the creative level of "Stop the Bleeding" or "The Torment" but there are great new albums out there.

I concede that this could depend on your listening style. Some people take awhile to appreciate things. That's fair. Some people are quick to decide. I am the latter. I'm sure I have listened to tens of thousands of albums in the last 3 decades. I used to be a record reviewer and wrote 500+ reviews. Very rarely have I ever changed my opinion of an album after an initial listen. I can't even think of an example, honestly. Usually it only goes the other way, where I quickly tire of something after repeat listens.

When you have highly attuned (and jaded) ears that have heard every riff and vocal style and songwriting trope there is, you don't need to take long to judge the quality or originality of an album. When you're young or inexperienced, sure. I envy young ears!

For me, I listen to albums as background while I'm working or driving/thinking. If nothing stands out and draws my conscious attention as different or better than I've heard before, then it's clearly not interesting to my ears. Most albums play through and I don't even recall anything from them when it's over. Pass. Life is too short to keep trying for a different result when the ears have spoken! On to the next few dozen albums....

by Son of Nun Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:09 pm

I'm not sure it can all be tallied up to age or experience though there could be an element to that. I also used to review albums for ultimatemetal.com and wrote quite a few reviews. I can think of some records that I would certainly change my score on now years later. I know a lot of other experienced listeners whose opinions on albums have changed considerably (for better or worse) over time. I understand getting jaded too (and I've seen that), but fortunately I took a break from Metal and so I don't feel that way.

I also tend to play albums first as background music to other tasks. It's part of how I give an initial evaluation when I don't have the time to sit there with the lyrics open and read along with focus. That method can only go so far, however, because I realize that important things are missed when I don't really give the album the full focus it deserves. Once things get in the door, I've really been trying lately to give a more complete evaluation. After doing so, some albums will remain stagnant, but my appreciation for others grows.

I'm glad that I don't have any obligation to sift through dozens of records at a time anymore. I don't listen to secular metal much these days and I've found it much easier to keep up with new Christian Metal releases and give directed attention to some of the classics that I haven't given enough time to.

by strangerhoncho Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:13 pm

I will say that I have given albums another listen with more attention and my appreciation improved slightly, but it's never a matter of my opinion changing from bad to good. More like changing from a D to a C.

But everyone has different ears! I'm glad you're able to find a much improved appreciation for some albums after listening more. I'm sure there are many fans like that. Just not me!

by Temple of Blood Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:57 pm

strangerhoncho wrote:
I would say some of the newer releases might be technically better or at least as good, but I just don't think they have the personality or memorable riffs and songwriting of the classic albums you think they're better than. The new bands' riffs are mostly interchangeable to my ears, and I can rarely remember a single song from them after listening. They're paint-by-numbers. Whereas every song stands apart (to me) on those classic albums, and they throw in so many unique artistic touches that you just don't find with the newer bands.

I don't hear that distinction in the releases I listed. On the top releases from back in the day that I excluded, I agree.

Ritual Servant is overrated, boring and same-y to me.

You don't even like "Seven Trumpets"? That's a great song. In general I agree that their songwriting needs more variety though.

One recent album I'm digging is Brotality--Worldwide Desolation. It's thrash with some groove and other elements. Dumb name, unfortunately, but it sounds fresh and unique to my ears, with distinct songs and unique vocals. Not at classic level yet, but they're definitely the most promising Christian metal band I've heard in awhile.

Yeah, definitely another band that could end up on the list I made above.

by Temple of Blood Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:59 pm

MagnusPrime wrote:
THIS. I was REALLY looking forward to a Once Dead studio album with Scott on vocals. They should have picked up where they left off (before the split with Martinez) with a good thrash/death hybrid album. Instead we got an attempt at a more modern "core-ish" approach with a horrible production apparently from the St. Anger Recording Academy. I listened to it maybe twice before getting rid of it.

Whoa now. I don't think there is anything core-ish about that album except the vocal approach.

Also it sounds FAR better than St. Anger so that comparison is unfair.

by Temple of Blood Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:00 pm

Raegoul wrote:I couldn’t figure out how to quote properly but this goes to Temple of Blood: Believer Extraction is pretty much the blueprint and pinnacle of Christian thrash records so how exactly is any new record going to be better than it? With all due respect etc.

I think you're the only one in the world who thinks that album is Believer's best Christian thrash album even, much less the best Christian thrash album in general.

I doubt even Believer themselves believe that.

by Temple of Blood Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:02 pm

Once I get the Herd album I wouldn't be surprised if that goes on my modern thrash list as well.

by Temple of Blood Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:03 pm

I'd also like to add Mad Dragzter - Master of Space and Time, and Meliah Rage - Masquerade to the above list (thanks ABOVE-average joe).

by Constantine Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:24 pm

strangerhoncho wrote:

When you have highly attuned (and jaded) ears that have heard every riff and vocal style and songwriting trope there is, you don't need to take long to judge the quality or originality of an album. When you're young or inexperienced, sure. I envy young ears!

This is very true. We all approach the same music from differing levels of experience, history with the genre, musical ability, mood, how broad or narrow our tastes are, etc. Having been around metal since the 70's, studied song-writing, taken bass and guitar lessons, been briefly in bands, and having spent many years as a reviewer, I find that I tend to approach new music differently from others here. Some people just enjoy the music and don't look at it that critically; I think that's a great thing to be able to do. For me, having heard and seen and explored and studied so much music, I can't help but be more critical, although not even nearly as much as some.

I've also spent time with many other types of music and I think that changes what you look for - example, listening to great rock or pop tends to make you appreciate a good hook and a well-crafted song.

While I often enjoy the sound of most of the newer thrash bands, I would agree that the song-writing is usually not that memorable or unique in many cases, so I get bored of it quickly. Some bands have some great ideas but just poor execution. I don't really blame them though, because the bigger secular bands usually have top production teams and from hearing their demos, their material also would not sound nearly as good without a great producer, because a good producer will re-arrange and re-structure a song to make it flow better. Also a bigger budget, more practice time, etc.

I think having somewhat jaded and critical ears is why I have branched out in the last few years into genres I previously had little or no interest in - black/unblack, groove metal, folk metal, rap metal, hardcore, etc. Because sometimes bands in these genres are doing something really interesting or at best, even mind-bending.

Music doesn't even have to be original for me to really like it. It just has to be somewhat well-executed and have some sort of special something or spark to it.

Sometimes an album I never liked, I will try it again years later and really like it. Or vice versa, I might revisit an album I liked before and think "hmm, this is not that great after all." I disliked Sacrament's "Haunts of Violence' for years and then it eventually clicked and now I consider it one of the best thrash albums ever.

I like many of the Christian bands obviously, but in general there seems to be more originality and trend-setting on the secular side. Not always though. There are ALOT of tired retreads and even plenty of dreck on the secular side. On the Christian side, I think the latest Crowned In Sorrow is exceptional and worth paying attention to. But some other bands that have released new material lately (not going to be naming any names), I listen to it and think it is average at best. Average is not bad, but it just won't hold my attention for too long.

by Frozen Fire Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:57 pm

Thrash has suffered the same way many genres have. When it is growing up it innovates and shows great diversity. There is no concrete blueprint. As time goes on the older bands repeat themselves, fall into mediocrity, go beyond the genre, lose their way or disappear before they come to those things. Some of these bands that never fell away just fell too early and are held in regard like they remained true. It's a rare band that sticks to their guns all the way through. A personal secular favorite was Overkill. They stretched out all along the way, especially in the 90s, but never really lost the hunger nor completely lost their sound. When they "came back" in the 2000's they kept the fire. That's exceedingly rare in the thrash world or really in any genre that falls out of favor.

On the new generation... the new generation comes up, often just learning their instruments but raised on the classics, the blueprint, and they try to put a spin on the classic mold or repeat it. It never works the same. They end up only emulating the most common genre tropes. On one hand we can see why, nobody is capable of recreating those albums and with certain albums like Rust In Peace it is because it's beyond human reach. In other cases nobody tries to recreate Testament "Practice What You Preach" because (though the playing their is stellar as well) it really isn't considered a genre-wide classic, though the band is highly regarded. Even more so, nobody is going to emulate Anthrax "State of Euphoria" because it's noted as weak effort in Anthrax's career and Joey's vocals aren't consider "the right style" for thrash. Anthrax themselves don't really have clones. The fact is, bands just don't try something new. It's easier to be like Slayer, Metallica, Kreator because in some sense it's easier and more acceptable for a new band. Every once in a while a band tries something different by sounding like Forbidden or Voivod or D.R.I. but they're just going down the path less trod.

Unfortunately, because of these things I've rarely found any good new thrash bands. Many of them are already mentioned in this thread but I'd rather go back and listen to Wargasm, Evildead, Tankard, Powermad, Helstar, Sacrifice, etc. because though they were B, C and D list bands they came from an era where bands just sounded different by nature.

Sorry for the curmudgeonly post. I really do love thrash but coming from the secular scene it is the style I miss most in the Christian scene. Not much to offer. Even the classic aren't all that great in most cases.

by average joe Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:42 pm

I think the first three D albums and Sacrament can hold their own with secular counterparts. Early Believer (when they were Christian) as well. A case could also be made for early Seventh Angel (when they were Christian). Living Sacrifice had the talent/potential but was probably too much of a Slayer clone to be taken seriously. Would have been interesting had they stayed thrash and carved out their own sound/identity instead of spending years honing metalcore. Similar to Sacrament, the metal dark ages of the 90s probably ended what could have been for Living Sacrifice. The Crucified could hold their own with secular crossovers like DRI. Suicidal Tendencies had way better/charismatic vocals, but they are generally regarded as the crossover gold standard, so... In the end, that is probably the ultimate measuring stick. Can any of the modern releases hold their own with their secular counterparts?

I hold out hope for Temple of Blood and Deathless.

by mothy Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:09 pm

Do yourself a favor and go check out Forgiveness. Just came across this new 2021 release.

by Temple of Blood Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:54 pm

average joe wrote:Great post and great conversation! I’m going to revisit all of these or listen for the first time. Never heard of Red Lamb or Mosh-Pit Justice. Can you rank these for us?

Extol - Synergy
Angel of Sodom - Divine Retribution
Ultimatum - Mechanics of Perilous Times
Ritual Servent - Metallum Evangelii
Mosh-Pit Justice - Fighting the Poison, The Fifth of Doom
Hating Evil - Rotten Inside
Freakings - Rise of Violence
Once Dead - Visions of Hell
Red Lamb - s/t
Sacredfice - s/t

Sure, I can give my own personal ranking, but I'd just like to say that my own ranking doesn't really mean anything.
By that, I mean that the above release represent MANY different legitimate ways to play thrash and your mileage will vary based on what style of thrash you enjoy.

I've always contended that thrash is actually a very diverse genre and you don't necessarily have to play fast to play thrash metal.

Having said that, here is what I think:
1. Red Lamb - "Red Lamb". (co-written by Dan Spitz from Anthrax and Dave Mustaine. This is in many ways more mainstream metal-era Megadeth than Anthrax and the singer apes Mustaine's style very well. )
2. Mad Dragzter - "Master of Space and Time" (really great playing and top-notch production values. It's rare that I hear a metal album these days where the drums sound this good. I think a lot more people would like this band if they were aware of them. Holds its own well against other secular thrash albums of this era. I'm surprised this release doesn't get more love, even around here. The biggest drawback is probably the sheer number of tracks, that probably should've been whittled down to only the strongest 10 songs.)
3. Extol - "Synergy" - This is pretty Voivod-ish, which is a big plus in my book. Amazing drumming. Great production. If you're not into progressive metal, you'll probably hate it. I could've lived without the melodic vocals on here.
4. Hating Evil - "Rotten Inside" - reminiscent of other bands I like so much like Dark Angel, Sadus, old Sepultura, and Slayer
5. Mosh-pit Justice "The Fifth of Doom"
6. Mosh-pit Justice "Fighting the Poison"
7. Angel of Sodom - "Divine Retribution"
8. Meliah Rage - "Masquerade"
9. Once Dead - "Visions of Hell"
10. Ultimatum - "Mechanics of Perilous Times"
11. Reborn - "Renewed for Revenge"
12. Sacredfice - "Sacredfice"
13. Freakings - "Rise of Violence"

by Raegoul Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:05 pm

Temple of Blood wrote:
Raegoul wrote:I couldn’t figure out how to quote properly but this goes to Temple of Blood: Believer Extraction is pretty much the blueprint and pinnacle of Christian thrash records so how exactly is any new record going to be better than it? With all due respect etc.

I think you're the only one in the world who thinks that album is Believer's best Christian thrash album even, much less the best Christian thrash album in general.

I doubt even Believer themselves believe that.

Classic Thrash Bands v Modern Thrash Bands - Page 3 E53d7f8067067a51029cde8260094ff5867b10ab6676b1d493c8dd8d23c4571b

by Constantine Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:33 pm

Temple of Blood wrote:

2. Mad Dragzter - "Master of Space and Time" (really great playing and top-notch production values. It's rare that I hear a metal album these days where the drums sound this good. I think a lot more people would like this band if they were aware of them. Holds its own well against other secular thrash albums of this era. I'm surprised this release doesn't get more love, even around here. The biggest drawback is probably the sheer number of tracks, that probably should've been whittled down to only the strongest 10 songs.)

I think Mad Dragzter are better than some of the other bands mentioned so far.
I liked them the minute I discovered them a few years ago.
They have a very German sound even though they are from Brazil.
Would agree the album is a bit long though.

However when I mentioned them to a well-known graphics designer in the Christian metal world (no names needed, I think you can guess), he said they need to up their game and that they weren't quite up to par. I wasn't sure what he meant and remain puzzled by that. But...he listens to way more thrash than I do so maybe he hears something I don't.

I also really like another Brazilian band called Reborn. Again, I find them to be better than some of the other more commonly heralded bands in these lists. They are not always super-tight but that only makes them sound more dangerous Smile

by Temple of Blood Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:34 pm

Frozen Fire wrote:Thrash has suffered the same way many genres have. When it is growing up it innovates and shows great diversity. There is no concrete blueprint.

Pretty much every thrash band in the 80s was influenced by Metallica (and/or Exodus/Slayer) to some degree, so that is in itself a blueprint.

As time goes on the older bands repeat themselves, fall into mediocrity, go beyond the genre, lose their way or disappear before they come to those things. Some of these bands that never fell away just fell too early and are held in regard like they remained true. It's a rare band that sticks to their guns all the way through. A personal secular favorite was Overkill. They stretched out all along the way, especially in the 90s, but never really lost the hunger nor completely lost their sound. When they "came back" in the 2000's they kept the fire. That's exceedingly rare in the thrash world or really in any genre that falls out of favor.

Are you citing Overkill as an example of an exceedingly original-sounding band? They were HEAVILY influenced by Metallica, which their former drummer Rat Skates got sick of and their original guitarist even tried to look like Hetfield!

Overkill to me hasn't written an outstanding song in decades. They weren't very good after they lost the Gant/Cannavino guitar team IMHO.

On the new generation... the new generation comes up, often just learning their instruments but raised on the classics, the blueprint, and they try to put a spin on the classic mold or repeat it. It never works the same. They end up only emulating the most common genre tropes.

This is no different than thrash bands in the 80s.

On one hand we can see why, nobody is capable of recreating those albums

I think they could if they wanted to, like Gruesome did with Death. But why? Better to put your own spin on it.

and with certain albums like Rust In Peace it is because it's beyond human reach.

Nah. Only Marty's solos would be the most difficult to emulate, or the production values. TONS of folks have covered those songs, including my own band so a lot of people could play the material. There are bands who write songs in the style of Rush so I don't see how this would be impossible to clone if someone really wanted to for some weird reason.

Check this out BTW:

In other cases nobody tries to recreate Testament "Practice What You Preach" because (though the playing their is stellar as well) it really isn't considered a genre-wide classic, though the band is highly regarded.

It's because a lot of aspects to that album haven't aged well, besides the guitar solos. How many songs from that album do Testament even play live? Mostly just the title track. Even the band themselves moved on from it. It sold a ton IMHO because of the hype carrying over from the previous two albums that were much better albums overall.

Even more so, nobody is going to emulate Anthrax "State of Euphoria" because it's noted as weak effort in Anthrax's career and Joey's vocals aren't consider "the right style" for thrash. Anthrax themselves don't really have clones.

Intruder get pretty close.

The fact is, bands just don't try something new.

Sure they do. Ritual Servant don't really sound like Slayer, except for a bit here and there. Extol - Synergy is unique.

My own band has been accused in the past of being a "clone"/"rip-off" of the following bands:
Manilla Road
Slayer
Helloween / Gamma Ray

Notice how those bands don't actually sound alike?

Bottom line is that we have a TON of metal influences and have no desire to rip off any artist and certainly not close a single band. There is no band that I look up to enough to do that. I doubt we're alone in that regard.

I think if you're honest with yourself, you'll see that your favorite 80s thrash bands are just as much a "rip-off" of genre leaders of the day as current bands are.

It's easier to be like Slayer, Metallica, Kreator because in some sense it's easier and more acceptable for a new band. Every once in a while a band tries something different by sounding like Forbidden or Voivod or D.R.I. but they're just going down the path less trod.

You sound like you're contradicting yourself here. You sound like you're lamenting that these bands/albums don't have clones, and then you say even when people do "clone" other lesser-known thrash bands they're "just going down the path less trod". So are you looking for clones or not? If not, why do you keep mentioning it?

Unfortunately, because of these things I've rarely found any good new thrash bands. Many of them are already mentioned in this thread but I'd rather go back and listen to Wargasm, Evildead, Tankard, Powermad, Helstar, Sacrifice, etc. because though they were B, C and D list bands

The first Wargasm album was really good, and original, but the vocalist was just way too boring and mediocre for them to become something much bigger than a local act or something only hardcore thrashers like myself could enjoy.

Evildead and Tankard I never thought were any good. I thought that Rise album was far better and more interesting than Evildead.

I love Helstar a ton, but be honest, where would this band be without the music of Yngwie Malmsteen?

Powermad had one good album 30 years ago. I feel they got lucky with that one though.

Sacrifice aren't all that hot IMHO. In fact, I'd bet that Believer's biggest influence during their thrash-era was this band and they surpassed their mentors. I say this also as someone who is not Believer's biggest fan.

they came from an era where bands just sounded different by nature.

They still do, just as much so.

Sorry for the curmudgeonly post. I really do love thrash but coming from the secular scene it is the style I miss most in the Christian scene. Not much to offer. Even the classic aren't all that great in most cases.

Well, hopefully you'll check out our upcoming album and you can tell me who we're "cloning". Wink

by Temple of Blood Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:38 pm

Constantine wrote:
I think Mad Dragzter are better than some of the other bands mentioned so far.
I liked them the minute I discovered them a few years ago.
They have a very German sound even though they are from Brazil.
Would agree the album is a bit long though.

However when I mentioned them to a well-known graphics designer in the Christian metal world (no names needed, I think you can guess), he said they need to up their game and that they weren't quite up to par. I wasn't sure what he meant and remain puzzled by that. But...he listens to way more thrash than I do so maybe he hears something I don't.

Every band without exception can always "up their game".

Songwriters/Musicians should always have this mindset anyway, so it's not really saying anything.

I listened to this album again today and it is a pretty impressive listen I must say. Stronger vocals and catchier hooks would help but that's probably true for every band around these days.

I also really like another Brazilian band called Reborn. Again, I find them to be better than some of the other more commonly heralded bands in these lists. They are not always super-tight but that only makes them sound more dangerous

Agreed! Adding them to my list.

They're a great antidote to click-y drum machines or drummers who sound like clicky drum machines.

by Constantine Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:41 pm

P.S., forgot to mention I think Extol - Synergy is their best album IMO.
Some/much of it is the stuff of genius. Musically it is a fascinating listen when you are in the mood for some crazy technical thrash / extreme metal.

Also, who is DeadXheaD? They sound really good. Are they Christian? I will go look them up now.

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