Global Warming - Fact or Fiction? (a thread requested by Andreas89)

[New Creation]

In another thread, Andreas89 found it hard to believe that there were some here like myself that deny global warming as it is presented by our governments.

I will begin with a Scripture:

Genesis 8:22 "While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease."

[Andreas89]

Thanks for kicking it off

Before I can say anything useful, could you (in short) explain how our governments present global warming?

[New Creation]

Thanks for kicking it off

Before I can say anything useful, could you (in short) explain how our governments present global warming?

They tell us that our vehicles, motors and our methods of generating electricity generate carbon emissions which create an extra layer in the atmosphere. This traps extra heat from the sun, thereby warming the earth.

Is that your understanding as well?

[Hardcore Christian]

Genesis 8:22 "While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease."

I also believe that Global warming is false, in the US its all the rage with the government 

Thats my 2 cents, not gonna spend anymore in this thread 

[deathisgain]

I think that it should be classified as a theory for the most part.

I think that there is some truth, as data shows some warming. But that could just be a trend and could go into a period of cooling as well.

I do think there is more we can do to help the environment, and should. But I don't think we should be heavy handed as the left is. I find some irony in the fact that people want to go to electric cars and such, not thinking about the fact that there has to be a way to get the electricity (such as burning coal, gas or wood). Obviously there are other resources such as wind and solar, but those don't provide enough.

On the other hand, most of this has been pushed by the radical left, and is blown out of proportions. And it's always great to see Leonardo DiCaprio pushing the agenda as he flies around in his gas guzzling jet.

On a side note, years ago some one gave me a copy of Larry Burkett's fictional book "The Thor Conspiracy" (Amazon: The Thor Conspiracy) which talks about the effects of the world being controlled by environmental dictates. The story itself is not that great, but it does have some eerily "prophetic" things in it. It was written in 1995.

[Andreas89]

Thanks for your contributions so far. There's quite a bit that I'd like to say about this subject, it may be a bit less controversial than you think.

[crucifyd]

warming and cooling is nothing new to the earth...

global warming itself is a thing but the issue they push so hard is "man-made global warming" (without actually saying that a lot of the time), alluded to above, which is way overblown...

as with most things, especially when it comes to government, follow the money...it's a money grab

also, if the pushers really think it is so bad, notice how they (such as one Al Gore) do not make any effort to lower their carbon footprint. still flying their personal jets around with their entourages, big houses, etc etc. they only want the peons (us) to do so...huh. again, a money grab

[Peter who was Vaak]

It's real.  Are a lot of scientists liars?  Yep.  Are there schemes to take money from America?  Sure.  Does the earth go through natural cycles and are a lot of people ignoring this?  Absolutely.
But we are having some effect obviously.  That's why we're seeing such interesting weather changes and constantly see records set.  Now, do we have the science of it down?  Absolutely not.  There are too many variables, we'll never be able to nail it down completely, but are we having an impact?  Yeah.
Should we be doing a bit more to help the environment?  Sure, but we're where we are.  I recycle more, but that's about it.

[New Creation]

interesting weather changes

I'd like to know what changes you're referring to.

[d@v!d]

I don't believe in it. As a Christian I believe in superstition and myths so I am against logic, reason, and also wholeheartedly reject Science. I only wish that Bill Nye would have just enough religion in him to find it in his heart to forgive me of my foolish whims and show me some mercy instead of having me rightly locked up for rejecting it.

I mean, cause like the same folks who are telling me that genders are a social construct, abortion is good for women, there is no God, taxing the diligent to give to the indolent, and more government means more freedoms, got to be right about this Global Warming.

[Professor_Valconian]

I don't believe in it. As a Christian I believe in superstition and myths so I am against logic, reason, and also wholeheartedly reject Science. I only wish that Bill Nye would have just enough religion in him to find it in his heart to forgive me of my foolish whims and show me some mercy instead of having me rightly locked up for rejecting it.

I mean, cause like the same folks who are telling me that genders are a social construct, abortion is good for women, there is no God, taxing the diligent to give to the indolent, and more government means more freedoms, got to be right about this Global Warming.

I like you.

[deathisgain]

An interesting story about how weather changes: My grandfather lived in Detroit for most of his life. A relative of his retired and moved to Southern Indiana. Years later when My grandfather retired, his relative told him "Get rid of your snow blower and move down here, it barely ever snows!" So that's what he did. It was one of the worst snow seasons. Later when I moved down there I can't remember a year it didn't snow.

[New Creation]

An interesting story about how weather changes: My grandfather lived in Detroit for most of his life. A relative of his retired and moved to Southern Indiana. Years later when My grandfather retired, his relative told him "Get rid of your snow blower and move down here, it barely ever snows!" So that's what he did. It was one of the worst snow seasons. Later when I moved down there I can't remember a year it didn't snow.

I think I see where you are going, but...

If there's one thing I know about human memory, it's that we are often wrong. Eyewitness testimony in a criminal trial is not even wholly reliable. That's Why God calls for 2 or 3 witnesses in Deuteronomy 17:6, because 1 just won't do.

At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

So, I'd like to stick to fact in this thread so that all is abundantly clear.

[Guest]

I used to not believe that global warming was a thing, but after doing research I warmed up (hehe) to the idea.

Governments may push action that gives them more power/money but that doesn't in itself mean global warming is false. The people prompting action on global warming are often hypocritical, but again that does not mean it's false. It's seen as a liberal ideology by many and discounted with the rest of their beliefs by many more conservative people, but review of ideologies must be done on an individual basis. What is important here, as New Creation stated, are facts.

As far as the verse first posted "Genesis 8:22 "While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease." goes, I would point out that cold and heat are relative. Temperature differences aren't going away, they're just getting warming on average. Summer and winter will continue to occur, just not exactly like we're used to, as will seed time and harvest... although current agricultural centers may become far less desirable for the crops currently being grown there.

97% of climate scientists agree that anthropogenic climate change is occurring... I can't post links yet, but it would make little sense for a climatologist to falsify data implying global warming - they aren't the ones who will benefit from the public and government accepting the climate change consensus. Now you can say (nobody here did, just bringing it up since it's common) they're being paid off under the table or whatever, or that dissenters with valid critiques are just being shushed and not treated properly in peer reviews, but there's not evidence for a conspiracy like that.

Scientific data is pretty clear that the Earth is warming at unprecedented rates. Estimates prior to the 1800s of temperature are just that, but since then measurements have been accurate enough to establish an alarming trend. I realize many here don't believe the Earth is as old as the scientists who study it claim, but there is a chart from 9/12 by the XKCD webcomic illustrating the significance of current climate change (again, no links... and it's too big to embed, if I'm even allowed to do that) This is coinciding directly with increases in greenhouse gases, like carbon dioxide (that's not the only one). Climate modeling is incredibly complex, and surely none of the ones being used are perfect, but they have been consistent with the data we have... to simply wave them off strikes me as ignorant.

I'll stop here instead of rambling on, but I'm interested to see where this goes.

[New Creation]

What is important here...are facts.

Scientific data is pretty clear that the Earth is warming at unprecedented rates.

Thanks for the reply.

Can you provide numbers? What rates? What degrees?

[alldatndensum]

It is a bunch of hooey.  That's my take.

If you get a chance, watch Phil Valentine's documentary "An Inconsistent Truth".  He nails it.

[New Creation]

It is a bunch of hooey.  That's my take.

If you get a chance, watch Phil Valentine's documentary "An Inconsistent Truth".  He nails it.

I agree that it's "hooey", but I want to back up my case with facts, not feelings.

I will watch that, but want to do my own research first and have a rational conversation here.

[exo]

My gut feeling? There REALLY is not enough data to judge the CURRENT situation against the past with any true degre of accuracy.   The scientifically accurate data we do have does not run far enough back in time to be a statistically significant sample size.


You are going to be hard pressed to find temperature recordings that are accurate within a reasonable margin of error going back past (approximately) 150 years, nor are you going to find them taken from widespread areas around the globe.  They simply were not made!


Similarly, I have to take issue with regards to the "melting polar ice caps" aspect that everyone and their brother talks about:  the hard truth is WE SIMPLY DON'T KNOW!  Aviation has been a "thing" for about 110 years.  Aviation capable of photographing the Arctic or Antarctic, even less, and satellite imagery even less than that!  Man only reached the North Pole in 1908, the South Polea few years later.  ANTARTCICA WAS ONLY SIGHTED LESS THAN 200 YEARS AGO.  Accurate data about historical, long term polar ice behavior DOES NOT EXIST.


the scarcity of data is actually magnified if you're looking at it they the viewpoint of the earth Being almost 4 billion years old.


The sample size, in regards to history, is pretty much statistically insignificant......

[d@v!d]

I used to not believe that global warming was a thing, but after doing research I warmed up (hehe) to the idea.

Governments may push action that gives them more power/money but that doesn't in itself mean global warming is false. The people prompting action on global warming are often hypocritical, but again that does not mean it's false. It's seen as a liberal ideology by many and discounted with the rest of their beliefs by many more conservative people, but review of ideologies must be done on an individual basis. What is important here, as New Creation stated, are facts.

As far as the verse first posted "Genesis 8:22 "While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease." goes, I would point out that cold and heat are relative. Temperature differences aren't going away, they're just getting warming on average. Summer and winter will continue to occur, just not exactly like we're used to, as will seed time and harvest... although current agricultural centers may become far less desirable for the crops currently being grown there.

97% of climate scientists agree that anthropogenic climate change is occurring... I can't post links yet, but it would make little sense for a climatologist to falsify data implying global warming - they aren't the ones who will benefit from the public and government accepting the climate change consensus. Now you can say (nobody here did, just bringing it up since it's common) they're being paid off under the table or whatever, or that dissenters with valid critiques are just being shushed and not treated properly in peer reviews, but there's not evidence for a conspiracy like that.

Scientific data is pretty clear that the Earth is warming at unprecedented rates. Estimates prior to the 1800s of temperature are just that, but since then measurements have been accurate enough to establish an alarming trend. I realize many here don't believe the Earth is as old as the scientists who study it claim, but there is a chart from 9/12 by the XKCD webcomic illustrating the significance of current climate change (again, no links... and it's too big to embed, if I'm even allowed to do that) This is coinciding directly with increases in greenhouse gases, like carbon dioxide (that's not the only one). Climate modeling is incredibly complex, and surely none of the ones being used are perfect, but they have been consistent with the data we have... to simply wave them off strikes me as ignorant.

I'll stop here instead of rambling on, but I'm interested to see where this goes.

I'm glad you recognize that those who are pushing this are the ones who hate us. That said, I agree that we ought to take our data seriously and if the data does indicate that the global temps are rising, we ought to respond appropriately. But I also wonder if is that heating necessarily related to human influence or is it caused by something else. Another qualm I have is that those same scientists have data that proves that my life is meaningless. Why should I trust them?

[Peter who was Vaak]

interesting weather changes

I'd like to know what changes you're referring to.

Stuff like this or this.  As I had said, the changes are happening, but we'll never understand fully the why of it all, but humans are having some effect.

[ThomasEversole]

You are going to be hard pressed to find temperature recordings that are accurate within a reasonable margin of error going back past (approximately) 150 years, nor are you going to find them taken from widespread areas around the globe. They simply were not made!

While I'd argue how long ago this was, it has been proven that Greenland used to be teeming with insects and other "forest life".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6276576.stm

Greenland is one of the coldest places on earth this day and age.
If Global warming was real, why did Greenland get colder, not hotter?

It's real.  Are a lot of scientists liars?  Yep.  Are there schemes to take money from America?  Sure.

No. ...and you should base this stuff on fact, not speculation.

[Guest]

Reading through actual scientific reports may make global warming seem much more plausible to some here, as they lack the dogma of politicians and various talking heads.

Can you provide numbers? What rates? What degrees?

Most of this is from IPCC 2013 (can't post links yet). If anything, they have a reputation for underestimation. Average surface temps (land and ocean) have risen ~0.85 deg C between 1880 and 2012. Sea level rose 0.19 meters between 1901 and 2010, a faster rate than at least the last 2000 years. The upper ocean is "virtually certain" to have warmed 0.11 deg C per decade over 1971-2012 and "likely" warmed since the 1870s. Atmospheric greenhouse gas concentrations (carbon dioxide, methane and nitrous oxide here) are higher than they have been for at least 800,000 years, emitted by human activity. Unlike natural CO2 emissions, humans don't do anything for reabsorption. The ocean absorbs CO2 as well, increasing the acidity by 26%. They conclude that more than half of warming between 1950 and 2010 is "extremely likely" to have been caused by humans (prior to this it drops down to "likely").

My gut feeling? There REALLY is not enough data to judge the CURRENT situation against the past with any true degre of accuracy.   The scientifically accurate data we do have does not run far enough back in time to be a statistically significant sample size.


You are going to be hard pressed to find temperature recordings that are accurate within a reasonable margin of error going back past (approximately) 150 years, nor are you going to find them taken from widespread areas around the globe.  They simply were not made!


Similarly, I have to take issue with regards to the "melting polar ice caps" aspect that everyone and their brother talks about:  the hard truth is WE SIMPLY DON'T KNOW!  Aviation has been a "thing" for about 110 years.  Aviation capable of photographing the Arctic or Antarctic, even less, and satellite imagery even less than that!  Man only reached the North Pole in 1908, the South Polea few years later.  ANTARTCICA WAS ONLY SIGHTED LESS THAN 200 YEARS AGO.  Accurate data about historical, long term polar ice behavior DOES NOT EXIST.


the scarcity of data is actually magnified if you're looking at it they the viewpoint of the earth Being almost 4 billion years old.


The sample size, in regards to history, is pretty much statistically insignificant......

I will respond to this later, I see your point though. I know little about paleoclimatology.

But I also wonder if is that heating necessarily related to human influence or is it caused by something else. Another qualm I have is that those same scientists have data that proves that my life is meaningless. Why should I trust them?

Not sure what you're referring to here. I haven't seen any scientific data "proving" any life to be meaningless. But you can read about their methodology and stuff if you don't trust them. I realize that's easier said than done and comprehending many of these topics well requires intensive education (which I lack too, but the 97% of experts on the subject don't).

While I'd argue how long ago this was, it has been proven that Greenland used to be teeming with insects and other "forest life".


Greenland is one of the coldest places on earth this day and age.  
If Global warming was real, why did Greenland get colder, not hotter?

Calling it global warming is a bit misleading. The globe is warming on average, sure, but this doesn't happen uniformly - particular places can end up cooling due to changing air and ocean currents, glacial melt, etc. However, Greenland specifically was relatively warm (I believe this was around the medieval warm period, characterized by high solar and low volcanic activity) around the time when it was being settled (pretty localized to the settlement areas though, as the Greenland ice sheet is 400,000 years old), but the globe as a whole was indeed cooler than today. Also, that was a very long time ago and irrelevant to the current human-fueled climate change phenomenon which has been pretty short.

I'm busy with classes and stuff, so I'll leave it at this for now. It's been a while since I've done much research on this topic...

[exo]

I'd like to request (that's "me", personally, not "moderator says", just so that's clear) that before arguing/refuting or responding more, you to take a step back and simply look at the very simple aspect of the math and statistics interplay.  Try to separate yourself from the whole "yes, this IS happening" mindset a little, so to speak.  It is so VERY easy to get caught up in debate.......


The measurements being bandied about are matters of TENTHS or even HUNDREDTHS of degrees, talked about as "averages".  It takes very little even "marginally" inaccurate reviewed data to skew things.  One of your quoted numbers is BARELY over a tenth of a degree! The data being crunched that is not truly "recent" in scope was most certainly NOT recorded with today's digital accuracy.

There is a HUGE margin of error possibility that grows larger the father back the recorded data is from, and we're  talking in terms of TENTHS OF DEGREES increase in final average.


And that is without getting in to further minutae like are the temp samples from the same time of year, or even the amount of temperature variation a body of water can have over the course of the day simply due to solar activity.  Or even localized underwater volcanic activity warming a current a touch when a sample was taken.......the variables that HAVE to be known and accounted for before you can declare the data accurate enough to work with when the final results going to be measured in TENTHS and hundredths of degrees is staggering......and most of the "have to know" details are NOT recorded.  

They just aren't.


Before you can analyze results, or the methodology.....you HAVE to look at the data being used.

Let that marinate for a day or two before tossing out some more examples of "what science says" about the matter.....I'd personally assert that maybe, just maybe, it DOESN'T, when you qualitatively evaluate the data that has to be used and the scope of time the data is from.

[d@v!d]

But I also wonder if is that heating necessarily related to human influence or is it caused by something else. Another qualm I have is that those same scientists have data that proves that my life is meaningless. Why should I trust them?

Not sure what you're referring to here. I haven't seen any scientific data "proving" any life to be meaningless. But you can read about their methodology and stuff if you don't trust them. I realize that's easier said than done and comprehending many of these topics well requires intensive education (which I lack too, but the 97% of experts on the subject don't).

What I'm referring to is the same people who say the Earth is warming are the same ones that say the Earth came to be by a big bang and that life life came to be somehow and that it evolved to be what it is today, naturalism. Naturalism leads only to Nihilism, life has no meaning. If they can't examine (scientifically) the universe and not see God, then I don't trust they know about the climate either.

[New Creation]

I also find it interesting that when I was growing up, in the 1970s and 1980s, global cooling was all the rage. I specifically remember hearing about it in the news.

Time magazine even had an article entitled "Another Ice Age?" in June of 1974. If you go to Wikipedia today and find the global cooling article, they tell us that the media of the 1970s was misinformed. :shrug:

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