Re: Would you buy a Complete Guide to Christian Heavy Metal book?

by Gorship Sat Dec 12, 2015 1:54 pm

Hardcore Christian wrote:
Gorship wrote:
Hardcore Christian wrote:
metaldude wrote:
Hardcore Christian wrote:Would it just be yesterdays bands or would include the more popular and interesting modern bands?

Telling the Christian metal story without bands like Rez, Daniel Band, and Barnabas would like the Bible without Genesis.
I said would it "just be yesterdays bands"

Or would it be all bands from Rez, Leviticus through As I Lay Dying and August Burns Red

I knew it would of course include all of the classics

one would hope that AILD never gets put in the Christian metal category every again.
So why does Vengeance Rising get put in it?

Wanna answer that?

Sure, dont put them in.

1 John 2: 18-22 wrote:
¹⁸Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
¹⁹They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
²⁰But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
²¹I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
²²Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

If you feel their story is necessary I guess you could, but Id make it clear something is wrong there. I dont think its wise to put an easily followed thread from a professing "christian" metal band to satanism.

In terms of AILD

in our zeal to have more "Christian" bands we cant just be. "oh you never mention His name in your lyrics but if someone really bugs you about it, you'll half-say something about it? sure, you're in", I owned many of their albums, I got hit by this bait and switch hard.

Personal note that may cause an argument in spoilers so you've been pre warned:

lulz boring:

I would love to read the statement from the band saying they "all werent" faking it. However call me jaded, that sounds like damage control and trying to save face just a little bit. The two I found 1) is from the aild website talking about the bands faith (or lack their-of) and 2) that the other guys were remaking a new band.

tl;dr. I see no evidence to suggest they even should have been a "CM band" to begin with. with lyrics like "Is this your salvation, is this all you can give? i will not be part of the reflection of someone elses dream" and then you stop thinking of a work around as to how that can be "christian" and think oh its spitting in the face of Gods gift of salvation... why on earth would you support that band in a book? further to that if you even to google an old interview with Tim to explain away those lyrics. You still cant really trust it as he admitted to being a fake.

So tl;dr, no aild doesnt get in the book imo.

So what about the "styper" scenario? stryper, christian band, one the members becomes a non christian.

1st question, how did the band address it?
2nd question, who is heading the bands lyrics, direction and purpose of the band.

if that person is ok with the band, talking, teaching, praising, praying and working with others for Jesus alone. Then I would say, tread carefully. again unequal yokes and such, i feel its unwise.

so do they get in the book? sure, but id make a note of line up changes and highlight who headed the band to keep its direction towards the Lord. Again with VR we arent talking about just the guitarist going off the rails, the lead vocalist, left and not only left but joined the church of satan...

just my (most likely extremely unpopular opinion),

more things people will get mad at:

by Temple of Blood Sat Dec 12, 2015 1:56 pm

It's better to make a wiki than a book these days.

by Hardcore Christian Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:26 pm

Gorship wrote:Sure, dont put them in.

If you feel their story is necessary I guess you could, but Id make it clear something is wrong there. I dont think its wise to put an easily followed thread from a professing "christian" metal band to satanism.

In terms of AILD

in our zeal to have more "Christian" bands we cant just be. "oh you never mention His name in your lyrics but if someone really bugs you about it, you'll half-say something about it? sure, you're in", I owned many of their albums, I got hit by this bait and switch hard.

Personal note that may cause an argument in spoilers so you've been pre warned:
lulz boring:

I would love to read the statement from the band saying they "all werent" faking it. However call me jaded, that sounds like damage control and trying to save face just a little bit. The two I found 1) is from the aild website talking about the bands faith (or lack their-of) and 2) that the other guys were remaking a new band.

tl;dr. I see no evidence to suggest they even should have been a "CM band" to begin with. with lyrics like "Is this your salvation, is this all you can give? i will not be part of the reflection of someone elses dream" and then you stop thinking of a work around as to how that can be "christian" and think oh its spitting in the face of Gods gift of salvation... why on earth would you support that band in a book? further to that if you even to google an old interview with Tim to explain away those lyrics. You still cant really trust it as he admitted to being a fake.

So tl;dr, no aild doesnt get in the book imo.

So what about the "styper" scenario? stryper, christian band, one the members becomes a non christian.

1st question, how did the band address it?
2nd question, who is heading the bands lyrics, direction and purpose of the band.

if that person is ok with the band, talking, teaching, praising, praying and working with others for Jesus alone. Then I would say, tread carefully. again unequal yokes and such, i feel its unwise.

so do they get in the book? sure, but id make a note of line up changes and highlight who headed the band to keep its direction towards the Lord. Again with VR we arent talking about just the guitarist going off the rails, the lead vocalist, left and not only left but joined the church of satan...

just my (most likely extremely unpopular opinion),
more things people will get mad at:

Why include any band then, cause what if they are all just liars anyway?

I say we should have to ask every single band a 10 page testimony to justify their belief in Christ.
Cause if we cant say they are a "Christian Band" then why put them in the book? Neutral

*sarcasm* $Don\'t Feed Trolls$

Im just going to refrain from anymore discussion about AILD cause it seems whenever they come up I get pissed at someone so.......
(Back on topic)
Im done with this thread
by saying, I would definitely buy the book

by Gorship Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:31 pm

Sorry you feel like I'm trolling, I feel I gave justified reasons for my convictions, if you can provide me with scriptural basis to refute them I'd love to hear it. As for removing all bands from the list because they all could be liars I think we both understand that's a bit harsh. Sorry your upset and for the sake of ranting in a thread I'd be more than happy to chat in a pm

Jordan

by strangerhoncho Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:29 pm

Didn't take long for the Pharisee spirit to rise up here. Sad

Sure is a bummer.

As mentioned, I'm not interested in judging anybody's salvation, and a person's walk ain't over til they're dead. Any metal band that has a known connection to Christ or Christianity or Christian music would be included. Those who have publicly left the faith or come to it late in their career would be acknowledged as such in a line or two as part of any bio, but it wouldn't be the focus of the book. The book would be a historical record of music, not a record of people's inner spiritual struggles which no man is privy to except his own.

by strangerhoncho Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:39 pm

ThomasEversole wrote:↑ I'd like to add to what alldat said and also mention that the "complete" guide won't be complete anymore in a few months. ...and very outdated in 6 or more.

Maybe I'll just wait and publish it in 2021 so it can be "The Complete Guide to Christian Metal: The First 50 Years." Somebody else can write the second 50.

If I consider Agape's Gospel Hard Rock to be the first, from 1971.

by sadvader Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:53 pm

Well, in the Stryper department we're of the same opinion. In the AILD department we're very close and additionally I don't care much about them because I'm not into core and I personally would only include them for the sake of showing that there is a controversy. On the other hand, it might be considered bad for business, iawsuits and bleh... That said, bands stained with such accusations are a problem for a book like the one we're discussing about, right. It is almost a philosophical question and actually it's frightening because any band can be killed with a simple accusation. If true or false will be difficult to prove for such band, but that's just loud thinking from my side.

by messiaen77 Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:34 pm

And here's the argument against such a work.

As for me personally, during my dissertation work I came across and looked through several "complete and authoritative" histories of heavy metal, all of which are different and all of which leave out stuff. One made no mention of glam metal whatsoever. One claimed in the index it had a section on Mortification, but didn't (I believe that would have been the only Christian band in the book). I will go out on a limb and say it is completely impossible to make a "complete" history of anything that is still active.

by sentient 6 Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:41 pm

Hardcore Christian wrote:Would it just be metal giants like Stryper..

Well, according to the band themselves, they would not look favorably upon being included in such a work. Twisted Evil

( oh..don't Rolling Eyes

at me

)

by KaramKaram Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:54 pm

You could use indiego or Kickstarter or any other platform to get funds

by sadvader Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:34 pm

messiaen77 wrote:And here's the argument against such a work.

As for me personally, during my dissertation work I came across and looked through several "complete and authoritative" histories of heavy metal, all of which are different and all of which leave out stuff. One made no mention of glam metal whatsoever. One claimed in the index it had a section on Mortification, but didn't (I believe that would have been the only Christian band in the book). I will go out on a limb and say it is completely impossible to make a "complete" history of anything that is still active.

Therefore I suggested the (70s,) 80s, 90s, 2000s approach.

by Fundy Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:00 am

I'd love to buy it if the price is right.

There are some good comments posted above. Things I would suggest or agree with...

- Rate things based on average ratings from firestream, so rather than a personal review it's a customer review.
- Put the book in to two sections. The first section is a history of Christian Metal, and the second is an alphabetical list of bands with maybe a bit of information on as many bands as you can find.
- Maybe call the book "An ALMOST Complete History"
- Put in LOTS of photos.

You'll have your work cut out, and the book will probably be thicker than a house, but if the price is right I'd buy it. If money wasn't an issue I'd DEFINITELY buy it, as I love the idea.

by WildWorld Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:28 pm

strangerhoncho wrote:My goal would be for it to be as comprehensive and inclusive as possible. The definition of "metal" means different things to different people at different times, and I would want to include all understandings. So everything from 70s hard rock to current metalcore.

As far as members' faith, it's not my place to judge any man's salvation. So I would include any band with any known Christian members, connection to Christian bands, past Christian history, interest to Christians, etc. Including even Megadeth, Alice Cooper, WASP, etc -- mainstream bands with members who recently identify as believers. I have zero interest in catering to any sort of Pharisee agenda, which is just another version of scene politics like you see in kvlt black metal or straight-edge punk.

My ultimate goal would be not only to give something to us "in the know," but for the book to fall into the hands of a few metal heads who don't have a clue about the amazingly rich and extensive history and influence of Christ in heavy metal over the decades. Open some eyes, musically and spiritually. That's really what would make it worthwhile spending a year or more of my life immersed in the project.

So the guide might be more accurately called "A Complete Guide to Music Which is Relatively Heavier Than Other Music of its Time and May Be Identified by Some Connection to and Influence By Christianity and Christians." But that might be hard to market. Ha!

Not to nitpick, but i do have a few questions here. First of all, what if a hard rock/metal band releases an album that is not metal or hard rock, such as Petra's God Fixation album? Would that be included in the reviews? Also, including any band with known Christian members would mean you would also have to include bands such as Extreme, Fozzy, Twisted Sister, Helloween, and Kansas. While these bands do have Christian members, the majority of their songs have little to do with Christianity (though they do have some songs relating to it).

by sadvader Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:40 pm

I had an idea: why not make the decision based on lyrics? Bands who don't speak openly about Christian themes from a believer's point of view, will not be included. I don't mean to make that judgemental but it seems that there must be a relatively certain criteria after which a choice can be made.
just a thought.

by strangerhoncho Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:09 pm

WildWorld wrote:Not to nitpick, but i do have a few questions here. First of all, what if a hard rock/metal band releases an album that is not metal or hard rock, such as Petra's God Fixation album? Would that be included in the reviews? Also, including any band with known Christian members would mean you would also have to include bands such as Extreme, Fozzy, Twisted Sister, Helloween, and Kansas. While these bands do have Christian members, the majority of their songs have little to do with Christianity (though they do have some songs relating to it).

Time will tell, but I'd probably include all albums by a mostly metal or hard rock band for the sake of completeness. Acoustic Archives by Tourniquet, for example. Whereas for a band that's mostly not metal, I might only include their heavy albums. Like for Mortal, I might only include Fathom and Wake as their only albums with heavy guitars. Or for Mad at the World, I'd only include their middle three heavier albums but not their first two or last two.

As for mainstream bands with Christian members, I'd have to think about it. I'd probably include any that had even one song about Christianity. Maybe there would be a separate chapter on such bands, even including obvious non-Christians who made important songs with Christian lyrics (ala After Forever by Black Sabbath). The point of the book would, again, be to catalog the influence of Christ in heavy metal. Through individuals, lyrics, or however he might be found.

by strangerhoncho Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:16 pm

sadvader wrote:I had an idea: why not make the decision based on lyrics? Bands who don't speak openly about Christian themes from a believer's point of view, will not be included. I don't mean to make that judgemental but it seems that there must be a relatively certain criteria after which a choice can be made.
just a thought.

That's an idea. But it's not practical, as I don't have a few extra years to spend reading and judging the lyrics of thousands of bands. Nor would I even have access to most of them, as I'd be streaming the majority of the bands I don't own -- or simply relying on descriptions online for rare albums I can't listen to and whose lyric booklets I'll never see.

Others have already done that work and identified bands with Christian influences. They're all included in places like Firestream and discussed in places like this message board. Reading lyrics would be up to the consumer or collector in most instances.

by sadvader Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:47 pm

Umm, bands with Christian members who have written at least one Christianity song? That's not that clear a definition.
Thousands of bands cite the bible and revolve around Christianity and if but for the sake of mockery and blasphemy.

The point of the book would, again, be to catalog the influence of Christ in heavy metal.

Okay, but the opening posting didn't mention that, did it?

by eatbugs Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:47 pm

Personally, the narrative history is more interesting than a list of albums and reviews. Waaay back in the first post, interviews were brought up and I think that would be cool to read. It's easier for me finding time to read a few pages here and there than listening to a lengthy podcast. Have you seen The Encyclopedia of Contemporary Christian Music? I read the narratives of many bands I'm interested in. I'd also like to see an overall narrative history of the genre.

Regarding the fringe-Christian and fringe-metal stuff, I'm on board with erring on the side of inclusiveness. Instead of simply excluding marginally-Christian or not-Christian-but-Christian-friendly bands like Firestream sometimes does, at least an explanation of why Zao/Klank/King's X/AILD/etc. don't fit the typical definition.

Bottom line: it's your book, write what you want. I just wanted to give my two cents on what one reader would get the most from.

by strangerhoncho Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:58 pm

eatbugs wrote:Bottom line: it's your book, write what you want. I just wanted to give my two cents on what one reader would get the most from.

Thanks, man. Smile

by strangerhoncho Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:25 pm

Just an update on where I'm at with this, for those interested:

-Even though the number of people who would be interested is disappointing, I'm still planning to go ahead with it because I think it's important for such a book to exist as a matter of record. If it leads to even one kid finding out about some bands that encourage him to eternal faith, as Heaven's Metal did for me, it's worth doing.

-I like the idea of being able to call it "50 Years of Christian Metal" or some such, so I'm shooting for a 2021 publishing date. Giving me plenty of time to do it at a relaxed pace in and around other books I'm writing. (Plus I really need those first 10 years of Heaven's Metal to get released so I can use them as a resource!)

-I'm leaning away from the "complete" idea, because as I started listing bands I was reminded of just how many obscure bands there are...and how below average most of them are. I may still provide an extensive listing of bands and albums, but not reviews of everything.

-Rather, I think I'll just try to cover all the "good" or at least interesting bands. This would still include obscure demo-only bands as well as popular. Pretty much any band anybody ever cares to discuss on this message board.

-The coverage would expand to include histories as well as reviews, plus some new interviews.

And those are all the changes to the plan thus far!

by Guest Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:36 pm

Will pastor Bob and sanctuary be in the book? ...pastor Bob has contributed more to christian metal than some of the bands themselves did?

by Guest Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:38 pm

Well, according to the band themselves, they would not look favorably upon being included in such a work.

Good point S6...Michael has gone out of his way to distance stryper from "Christian metal"..so has Rage of Angels, Kings X and well, a whole list of others..

by strangerhoncho Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:46 pm

Savage Amusement wrote:Will pastor Bob and sanctuary be in the book? ...pastor Bob has contributed more to christian metal than some of the bands themselves did?

I'd love to interview him, so most likely. Doug Van Pelt too. Really anybody who was instrumental.

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