Re: Persecution of Christians in America

by sentient 6 Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:25 pm

Gandalf the White wrote:2. Dr. Beckum's main point was that American Christians (in general) are revenge and violence minded - in his transcript he pointed to the fact that American Sniper made so much money in it's opening weekend. This was one of a couple attitudes that he pointed out Jesus not having.

...and I believe he is vastly over stating the case. He is comparing movie sales between two different types of movies to make his point ? I will probably say more about this later on when I have more time.

by Gandalf the White Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:50 pm

sentient 6 wrote:" One is a movement of people who want to live and be like Jesus. "

Those that agree with the author basic premise, can you explain to the fullest extent possible on what this means to you ?

I think the author and the original transcript do this effectively. By not equating politics to faith.

But I'm sure you'll have an issue with even that statement...

by Guest Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:51 pm

sentient 6 wrote:" One is a movement of people who want to live and be like Jesus. "

Those that agree with the author basic premise, can you explain to the fullest extent possible on what this means to you ?

I remember you stated earlier that you were concerned about the concept of being "Christ like".

I think I can see your point, but I'm not sure if we are thinking the same thing.

I think it can be easy for one to mimic some of the things Christ did, but to know WHY He did them is something different.

One must know the heart of Christ in order to be "Christ like".

I believe 1 Peter 1 sums up this concept very well.

1 Peter 1:[15] But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
[16] Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

sentient 6 wrote:....also do you feel someone must be a " pacifist " to truly be Christian ?

I'm not sure I understand the question.

by Gandalf the White Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:51 pm

sentient 6 wrote:....also do you feel someone must be a " pacifist " to truly be Christian ?

No but I am. I also think most people confuse "pacifist" with "do-nothing-ist."

by Gandalf the White Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:58 pm

sentient 6 wrote:
Gandalf the White wrote:2. Dr. Beckum's main point was that American Christians (in general) are revenge and violence minded - in his transcript he pointed to the fact that American Sniper made so much money in it's opening weekend. This was one of a couple attitudes that he pointed out Jesus not having.

...and I believe he is vastly over stating the case. He is comparing movie sales between two different types of movies to make his point ? I will probably say more about this later on when I have more time.

you're quoting the wrong thing in your argument. The original sermon mentioned the movies. The article that purports some persecute Christians for their beliefs talked about Dr. Beckum getting fired. Your point is inaccurate and moot.

by sentient 6 Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:09 pm

Gandalf the White wrote:
I think the author and the original transcript do this effectively. By not equating politics to faith.

But I'm sure you'll have an issue with even that statement...

Sure, but ones faith affects their politics. Some things that the world sees as politics, I do not.

What I am looking for is the fullest definition of " to live and be like Jesus. " Of course people may have a religion of chioice in form of Christianity, but I don't think this one movement within Christianity has most balanced view of that.

by sentient 6 Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:33 pm

Mortal wrote:
sentient 6 wrote:" One is a movement of people who want to live and be like Jesus. "

Those that agree with the author basic premise, can you explain to the fullest extent possible on what this means to you ?

I remember you stated earlier that you were concerned about the concept of being "Christ like".

I think I can see your point, but I'm not sure if we are thinking the same thing.

I think it can be easy for one to mimic some of the things Christ did, but to know WHY He did them is something different.

One must know the heart of Christ in order to be "Christ like".

I believe 1 Peter 1 sums up this concept very well.

1 Peter 1:[15] But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
[16] Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Sure, this wouldn't be too far off from how I would define things.

by sentient 6 Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:42 pm

Gandalf the White wrote:
No but I am. I also think most people confuse "pacifist" with "do-nothing-ist."

Well, lets define our terms then. Scripturally, what does it mean to be a christian pacifist ?

by Guest Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:47 pm

sentient 6 wrote:
Gandalf the White wrote:
No but I am. I also think most people confuse "pacifist" with "do-nothing-ist."

Well, lets define our terms then. Scripturally, what does it mean to be a christian pacifist ?

You're the one who should be defining your terms.

I know you are trying to turn the tables on Gandalf by pressuring him to define his terms, but you are the one who asked the question in the first place.

sentient 6 wrote:....also do you feel someone must be a " pacifist " to truly be Christian ?

Define YOUR terms.

by sentient 6 Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:05 pm

Gandalf the White wrote:
you're quoting the wrong thing in your argument. The original sermon mentioned the movies. The article that purports some persecute Christians for their beliefs talked about Dr. Beckum getting fired. Your point is inaccurate and moot.

Maybe i'm confused I guess. I thought the pastor was making the point that american christians for the most part are not into " loving your enemies " because one type of movie outsold another type...and the this being echoed by the blogger.

Anyway, do we know that this was the only reason why the pastor was fired for sure ?

by sentient 6 Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:23 pm

Mortal wrote:
sentient 6 wrote:
Gandalf the White wrote:
No but I am. I also think most people confuse "pacifist" with "do-nothing-ist."

Well, lets define our terms then. Scripturally, what does it mean to be a christian pacifist ?

You're the one who should be defining your terms.

I know you are trying to turn the tables on Gandalf by pressuring him to define his terms, but you are the one who asked the question in the first place.

sentient 6 wrote:....also do you feel someone must be a " pacifist " to truly be Christian ?

Define YOUR terms.

The whole article is based on and from a christian pacifist view ( yes it is ), so on principle, what the heck are we talking about in the first place ? My whole thing is that Jesus is usually dealing with matters of pride in the human heart. The unbalance comes in when we start saying that Jesus would not condone war, self defense or things of that nature. As a Christian, we should love those that persoanlly insult us and persecute us by praying for their salvation and not taking revenge against them. But that does not mean that a nation cannot defend itself against muslim governments that wish to inflict harm. The pastor pitting what takes place in war ( american sniper ) against the civil rights movement was in poor taste. I haven't seen either movie, but I wouldn't feel less of a " follower of Christ " if I seen the sniper movie instead of the MLK movie. Or that I was more revenge " minded " or that I didn't " love " my enemies.

by Guest Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:41 pm

sentient 6 wrote:The whole article is based on and from a christian pacifist view ( yes it is )

I don't know how you came up with that one.

sentient 6 wrote:so on principle, what the heck are we talking about in the first place ?

You tell me.

You can't seem to stay focused on any particular subject. You keep hopping around from subject to subject.

First, you stated that Beckum's case was being overstated..

Then, you switched it over to whether or not "Churchians" were true Christians...

Then, you switched it over and asked for specific examples of "Churchians"...

Then, you switched it over to the subject of people being "Christ like"...

Then, you switched it over to whether being a pacifist was right...

Then, you switched it over to movie sales...

Then, you switched it over to politics...

So....Why don't you tell us what we are discussing?

sentient 6 wrote:My whole thing is that Jesus is usually dealing with matters of pride in the human heart. The unbalance comes in when we start saying that Jesus would not condone war, self defense or things of that nature.

And now you're switching it up again, and making a strawman argument.

No one here is saying that.

by Gandalf the White Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:14 pm

sentient 6 wrote:
Gandalf the White wrote:
No but I am. I also think most people confuse "pacifist" with "do-nothing-ist."

Well, lets define our terms then. Scripturally, what does it mean to be a christian pacifist ?

Frankly, being a "Christian pacifist" is kinda like being a Christian Bible reader. It's a silly term.

But from my own approach:

You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matt. 5:38-39)

Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. (Matt. 5:43-48, Luke 6:27-28)

Put your sword back in its place...for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. (Matt. 26:52)

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Matt. 5:9)

This is what makes a "Christian pacifist".

by Gandalf the White Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:17 pm

sentient 6 wrote:
Gandalf the White wrote:
you're quoting the wrong thing in your argument. The original sermon mentioned the movies. The article that purports some persecute Christians for their beliefs talked about Dr. Beckum getting fired. Your point is inaccurate and moot.

Maybe i'm confused I guess. I thought the pastor was making the point that american christians for the most part are not into " loving your enemies " because one type of movie outsold another type...and the this being echoed by the blogger.

Anyway, do we know that this was the only reason why the pastor was fired for sure ?

Okay, I see your point now.

So yes, that was the point. When American Christians talk anti-violence, people freak out. You even asked me to define what I meant by pacifist. We aren't members of MENSA but you're no dummy. That wasn't asking because you didn't know what the word was - that was asking so you know how to plan your rebuttal.

by Gandalf the White Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:20 pm

sentient 6 wrote:
Mortal wrote:
sentient 6 wrote:
Gandalf the White wrote:
No but I am. I also think most people confuse "pacifist" with "do-nothing-ist."

Well, lets define our terms then. Scripturally, what does it mean to be a christian pacifist ?

You're the one who should be defining your terms.

I know you are trying to turn the tables on Gandalf by pressuring him to define his terms, but you are the one who asked the question in the first place.

sentient 6 wrote:....also do you feel someone must be a " pacifist " to truly be Christian ?

Define YOUR terms.

The whole article is based on and from a christian pacifist view ( yes it is ), so on principle, what the heck are we talking about in the first place ? My whole thing is that Jesus is usually dealing with matters of pride in the human heart. The unbalance comes in when we start saying that Jesus would not condone war, self defense or things of that nature. As a Christian, we should love those that persoanlly insult us and persecute us by praying for their salvation and not taking revenge against them. But that does not mean that a nation cannot defend itself against muslim governments that wish to inflict harm. The pastor pitting what takes place in war ( american sniper ) against the civil rights movement was in poor taste. I haven't seen either movie, but I wouldn't feel less of a " follower of Christ " if I seen the sniper movie instead of the MLK movie. Or that I was more revenge " minded " or that I didn't " love " my enemies.

The sermon and article were written from someone who believes in anti-revenge. Did you read the Scriptures Dr. Beckum used in his talk?

His point wasn't that one movie made people less or more of a Christian. His point is that as Jesus followers, why would we be so supportive of the thought process that equates patriotism with faith?

by sentient 6 Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:00 pm

Gandalf the White wrote:
His point wasn't that one movie made people less or more of a Christian. His point is that as Jesus followers, why would we be so supportive of the thought process that equates patriotism with faith?

I can't even name any Christians who do that, so I guess thats why I think its overstated. And for sure, I believe that love of " country " can be an idol.

by sentient 6 Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:08 pm

Mortal wrote:
sentient 6 wrote:The whole article is based on and from a christian pacifist view ( yes it is )

I don't know how you came up with that one.

Well it is. The blogger is one for sure. The anabaptists used to be know for their emphasis on believers baptism ( to " re " baptize in church history ), but now they are known more for pacifism.

Sorry, I guess way too many subjects that could be adressed from what both those men said in the sermon and the bloggers article. And thats why I seemed to have jumped around. But its all related in my mind I guess.

by sentient 6 Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:12 pm

Gandalf the White wrote:
sentient 6 wrote:
Gandalf the White wrote:
No but I am. I also think most people confuse "pacifist" with "do-nothing-ist."

Well, lets define our terms then. Scripturally, what does it mean to be a christian pacifist ?
Frankly, being a "Christian pacifist" is kinda like being a Christian Bible reader. It's a silly term.

But from my own approach:
You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matt. 5:38-39)
Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. (Matt. 5:43-48, Luke 6:27-28)
Put your sword back in its place...for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. (Matt. 26:52)
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Matt. 5:9)

This is what makes a "Christian pacifist".

Ok.

....now before this gets shut down....i'll leave this subject alone.

by Guest Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:14 pm

sentient 6 wrote:I can't even name any Christians who do that,

Persecution of Christians in America - Page 2 Z

by Guest Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:23 pm

sentient 6 wrote:I can't even name any Christians who do that, so I guess thats why I think its overstated.

I find it odd that you hinge all of this on whether or not you yourself can name names.

by Gandalf the White Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:50 pm

sentient 6 wrote:
Gandalf the White wrote:
His point wasn't that one movie made people less or more of a Christian. His point is that as Jesus followers, why would we be so supportive of the thought process that equates patriotism with faith?

I can't even name any Christians who do that, so I guess thats why I think its overstated. And for sure, I believe that love of " country " can be an idol.

But I thought Christianity was about truth and what's real, not our feelings and experiences...?

I know plenty of people who do this. I guess relativism is alive and well in Christianity...

by Gandalf the White Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:52 pm

sentient 6 wrote:
Gandalf the White wrote:
sentient 6 wrote:
Gandalf the White wrote:
No but I am. I also think most people confuse "pacifist" with "do-nothing-ist."

Well, lets define our terms then. Scripturally, what does it mean to be a christian pacifist ?
Frankly, being a "Christian pacifist" is kinda like being a Christian Bible reader. It's a silly term.

But from my own approach:
You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matt. 5:38-39)
Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. (Matt. 5:43-48, Luke 6:27-28)
Put your sword back in its place...for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. (Matt. 26:52)
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Matt. 5:9)

This is what makes a "Christian pacifist".

Ok.

....now before this gets shut down....i'll leave this subject alone.

Wow... I don't think I've ever had anyone say their response to my opinions would lead to a thread being locked. So are you leaving the thread? You said yourself it was written from a pacifist point of view. If you don't address the pacifism, you can no longer comment.

by sentient 6 Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:09 am

Gandalf the White wrote:

But I thought Christianity was about truth and what's real, not our feelings and experiences...?

I know plenty of people who do this. I guess relativism is alive and well in Christianity...

What do they do ? I never heard a real Christian who is conformed to the Word of God equate patriotism with real Christian faith. Sure, I have seen politicians play that card at times. But I can't think any person who is relevant to the real work of Gods Kingdom and the Church teach stuff like that.

Heres the pastors whole sermon for anyone whos interested...I wanted the whole context..

http://www.newsforage.com/2015/03/christian-college-chaplain-fired-for.html

And in a wider and more general point, I am all for Christians doing some self reflection on the music, TV and movies they enjoy and have a desire for. And for the record, I do believe that things that glorify violence and hatred and revenge are antithetical holiness.

by sentient 6 Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:18 am

Mortal wrote:

I find it odd that you hinge all of this on whether or not you yourself can name names.

Is there some denomination or church or orthodox teacher ( as opposed to the west boro type ) that is teaching this ? To speak to the chaplains point, I think the problem in general is the cultures constant emphasis that we have to always be entertaining ourselves to be happy. Then we seek out the movies that entertain us more - plots involving violence and revenge.

by Guest Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:40 am

sentient 6 wrote:Is there some denomination or church or orthodox teacher ( as opposed to the west boro type ) that is teaching this ?

How about Christ Himself?

Not good enough for ya?

sentient 6 wrote:To speak to the chaplains point, I think the problem in general is the cultures constant emphasis that we have to always be entertaining ourselves to be happy. Then we seek out the movies that entertain us more - plots involving violence and revenge.

I don't think you are improving on the point at all.

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