Hot takes.

I haven't heard the full album, but I have heard Daddy and Blind. I agree, they're great.

Dustofyears wrote:

seth wrote:

Dustofyears wrote:

seth wrote:I will admit I haven’t heard a huge sampling of nu metal, but most of that which I have heard has lyrics that are either extremely whiny or angry tough-guy bragging

Just go straight to Korn's first album then their second and third album if you like that. Then Deftones. That's all you need to listen to in the NU metal realm. The rest are copy cats or weak.

I’ve only heard a few Korn songs, but they sounded just as whiny/angsty as anything out there to me

Give their first album a good listen. It's quite insane and full of pure aggression and groove and the lyrics are raw and hold nothing back..no sir, no having to "read-into-the-message-here" it's just one big open raw wound of an album. It's highly emotive and real stuff. If real and emotive is whiny...then probably not your thing.

Anyway if you feel like it check out these four tunes

Daddy (very heavy themes and lyrics)

Clown (there is a censored video for this too)

Shoots and Ladders (you love nursery rhymes your gunna love this) Video for this also

Faget (that's how it is spelt too. John used to be called that at school and was bullied a lot for being a strange kid etc...

Be warned Korn hold nothing back on that first album and the lyrics and content are about as real and angry as it gets. Great grooves!

Yeah I guess “highly emotive” is an accurate and less harsh description than mine for that type of music, and the majority of modern rock it seems. Seems like the majority of nu-metal and modern rock in general are primarily focused on the personal, often negative emotions of the artist, like anger or depression. I guess it’s probably not fair to dismiss it all as “whiny,” since i’m sure expressing that stuff can help both the artists and listeners who experience similar stuff. Probably the reason I never cared for such music is because my personality is pretty much the opposite of “emotive.” Although I still contend that some modern rock is indeed truly whiny (looking at you Green Day)

Nah, it's whiny, like so much of our society now, pathos and angst is what's cool. Well, sometimes they glamorize sexual violence so there's that.

I guess another reason I describe modern rock as whiny is even apart from the lyrical content, it also just somehow sounds whiny musically. Hard to describe exactly what I mean, but that musical quality has been present since the arrival of grunge. For example, the lyrics of Fade to Black are extremely depressive, but that musical “whiny” quality isn’t there the way it is in, for example, a Linkin Park song

seth wrote:I guess another reason I describe modern rock as whiny is even apart from the lyrical content, it also just somehow sounds whiny musically. Hard to describe exactly what I mean, but that musical quality has been present since the arrival of grunge. For example, the lyrics of Fade to Black are extremely depressive, but that musical “whiny” quality isn’t there the way it is in, for example, a Linkin Park song

I think the difference is how maturely they're expressed.

Although that’s part of it, what I’m talking about is more from a purely musical perspective. Imagine for example a non-English speaker listening to both Fade to Black and a Linkin Park or Green Day song. Even if you don’t understand the lyrics, the former doesn’t “sound whiny” but the latter does. At least to me, although I can’t really put to words exactly what the “whiny” quality in the music is

Maybe part of it is that a lot of modern rock singers make their voices have a literal whining sound to them

seth wrote:Maybe part of it is that a lot of modern rock singers make their voices have a literal whining sound to them

   Billy  Corgan

MagnusPrime wrote:

seth wrote:Maybe part of it is that a lot of modern rock singers make their voices have a literal whining sound to them

   Billy  Corgan

Perfect example lol

This might be the fastest we have gotten a new thread to six pages in a long time.

seth wrote:

Dustofyears wrote:

seth wrote:

Dustofyears wrote:

seth wrote:I will admit I haven’t heard a huge sampling of nu metal, but most of that which I have heard has lyrics that are either extremely whiny or angry tough-guy bragging

Just go straight to Korn's first album then their second and third album if you like that. Then Deftones. That's all you need to listen to in the NU metal realm. The rest are copy cats or weak.

I’ve only heard a few Korn songs, but they sounded just as whiny/angsty as anything out there to me

Give their first album a good listen. It's quite insane and full of pure aggression and groove and the lyrics are raw and hold nothing back..no sir, no having to "read-into-the-message-here" it's just one big open raw wound of an album. It's highly emotive and real stuff. If real and emotive is whiny...then probably not your thing.

Anyway if you feel like it check out these four tunes

Daddy (very heavy themes and lyrics)

Clown (there is a censored video for this too)

Shoots and Ladders (you love nursery rhymes your gunna love this) Video for this also

Faget (that's how it is spelt too. John used to be called that at school and was bullied a lot for being a strange kid etc...

Be warned Korn hold nothing back on that first album and the lyrics and content are about as real and angry as it gets. Great grooves!

Yeah I guess “highly emotive” is an accurate and less harsh description than mine for that type of music, and the majority of modern rock it seems. Seems like the majority of nu-metal and modern rock in general are primarily focused on the personal, often negative emotions of the artist, like anger or depression. I guess it’s probably not fair to dismiss it all as “whiny,” since i’m sure expressing that stuff can help both the artists and listeners who experience similar stuff. Probably the reason I never cared for such music is because my personality is pretty much the opposite of “emotive.” Although I still contend that some modern rock is indeed truly whiny (looking at you Green Day)

Grunge set up the whole dark introspective themes and usually done in a poetic arty kind of way (I mean yes there was fade to black) Korn took that vibe and threw away the poetic arty lyrics and spelled it out so there was no doubt or mystery as to what the band was on about.

Vince Neil from Motley Crue (think it was him if memory serves) said when Grunge came along it really hit him and his buddies hard, because they sang about chicks drugs and parties and next minute here are these bands singing about depression and all this other real life stuff. He mentioned he would see other hair metal band members from other bands walking along Hollywood strip etc and they'd all talk about how strange it is for these new bands singing about deep stuff other than some new cheesy love ballad. They really felt the punch of Kurt's whiny and abundantly comical and sarcastic fist lolz.



On the flip side, Tommy Lee and other rock stars of the era state that it was a breathe of fresh air as the hair bands coming out started becoming formulaic and plastic. He welcomed it, as did Axl Rose who,  was fan of Nirvana before the feud with Cobain etc

Grunge, and especially Nirvana and Kurt, flipped the birdie big time at all that stuff and I'm glad it it did.

Black Rider wrote:Nah, it's whiny, like so much of our society now, pathos and angst is what's cool. Well, sometimes they glamorize sexual violence so there's that.

Love the first line from Serve the Servants that kicks off Nirvana's last album, in utero. Love Kurt's humor.

Teenage angst has paid off well
Now I'm bored and old


lolz cracks me up love Nirvana.

All the ancient huge monuments (pyramids, Nazca lines, Stonehenge etc.) were built by huge dudes, as in giants aka Nephilim/Raphaim/Enakim, who are Elohim / human hybrids (dudes with six fingers), as in Gen. 6,1-4. Sounds wild at first but makes total sense if you think about it.

Pethead wrote:

Black Rider wrote:Check out Winger's Pull and Skid Row, Slave to the Grind. And sometimes heavy isn't the point, nu metal downtunes a lot to be heavy but there's little in the way of hooks.

Not to mention that downtuning =/= heavy riffs. A lot of thrash is in standard tuning. The riffs themselves are heavy.

The part of heaviness that most don't understand is that some of it comes from just which notes are chosen, the scales, the intervals, etc.  How often do you hear anyone talk about that?

I only listen to vinyl because records weigh more than CDs, and I only listen to heavy music. If I do stoop to the level of CDs, then it has to be a gold disc so that there is at least some weight to it. Don't even get me started on digital.

It was natural evolution to down tune. I mean think about it, where else could thrash go in and of itself? Or death metal for that matter. It's all been done. Play in the same standard tuning or half step, trem pick until your hand falls off, palm mute for the chugga chugga, play the same power chords and intervals over and over again with harmonies ripped from maiden etc

Nu metal was begging to happen since the day Sepultura released Chaos Ad in 93. Then hello Korn in 94 the very next year. And there is tons of hooks in those first albums all over the show and the grooves are just heavy as heavy can be.

"it's all been done"

I will never agree with that statement for any genre.

If you can write a new great song in a style, then it hasn't all been done.

Temple of Blood wrote:"it's all been done"

I will never agree with that statement for any genre.

If you can write a new great song in a style, then it hasn't all been done.

 Fair enough statement. But I was meaning as far as the evolution of "heavy" goes, there was nowhere else to go but down tune and groove. It seemed like the natural conclusion. In someways Sepultura are really the band responsible for down tuning and making the prototype for nu metal in the form of Chaos AD, a band that was primarily thrash.

I see some of that, but I think Korn would've never existed without FNM, not Sepultura.

Trying different things is great, but nu-metal was just full of stupid, forgettable, tuneless riffs.  Among their other musical crimes.

Not Korn's first three albums no way. And especially the first album is a masterpiece and hugely creative and inventive. I am not a huge fan of Nu metal but those albums are the exception to the rule. Those a few of deftones albums.

Guess I can kinda see the FNM thing perhaps in the way of vocal quirk to some degree. But I always thought of Korn like Primus down tuned on steroids meets Chaos Ad even more down tuned on steroids with the heavy low end you'd usually hear in hip hop and rap.

Anyway you're a thrash head to the core and till death do us part, sweet.

Actually yeah I can see see the FNM comparison now I give it some thought. Never thought about them. Yeah makes sense.

Primus were mostly ex-thrash musicians.  The guys in Korn couldn't play thrash.

Les Claypool was a virtuoso.  Korn has no virtuosos.

The chasm in musicianship between Korn and Primus, or even Sepultura is huge.

I think Korn pretty much said the same thing about FNM that I did.

I think the Chaos AD style came more from Pantera, which came from mostly Prong.  But it was going in that direction for many reasons.

I don't doubt that the guys in Korn listened to and enjoyed Chaos AD.  I love the production of that album, and the drumming.  Other than that, most of the songs just aren't memorable.  The first few tracks are catchy and have some good "arena metal" riffs but I think there are a lot of songwriting duds on that album.  Max was just never the best songwriter IMHO.

I think the "it's all been done before" guys would say that Slayer, Dark Angel, and old Sepultura all sounds the same.

I think they're quite different.

Yeah I'm not a huge fan of Chaos Ad. Funny how they turned into Korn on Roots album too. But yeah I get the NFM comparison And it wouldn't surprise me if they said they said they were an influence. I'd like to find out what Korn's actual influences were. Hmm... Anyway Imma outta here have a good one cheers.

Temple of Blood wrote:I think the "it's all been done before" guys would say that Slayer, Dark Angel, and old Sepultura all sounds the same.

I think they're quite different.

Yeah but thrash was still new Just like when Death metal started Deicide was different from Obituary etc and so on. Same with Grunge bands etc then comes the flood of imitators. It's the reason I don't bother buying or searching for thrash or death metal bands anymore because It's just going to sound like everything that came before it. And I like what came before it better. Guess I've heard it all.
Help me I'm getting old!

Anyhoo...