Re: Bands With Reformed Theology

by Pethead Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:35 pm

Black Rider wrote:Stryper are complete Arminian, check out the lyrics to Free.

Free honestly comes off as more Semi-pelagian to me, honestly.
Either way, Arminian doesn’t mean Free Grace. I’m an Arminian, but I’m not a Free Gracer.

by Opeth3232 Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:24 pm

alldatndensum wrote:Looking up the "reformed" and "Calvanist" beliefs, aren't they pretty much the same?

Coming up through the Southern Baptist church mostly, I would say I am 40% "reformed" and 60% Armenian. Yes, it is possible to be a dukes mixture of these as there are a ton of believers who are in the middle of these two trains of thought.

I thought I was the only one like this lol. It's like the middle man in betweeners always get ignored lol. I'm like you I accept points from both sides was raised Free Will Baptist but I don't believe in Arminian theology to be the dominant like my home church believed before they went to the Independent Baptist tag, then more Calvin started to be creeped in to the mix

by Opeth3232 Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:31 pm

Kerrick wrote:
Pethead wrote:
Opeth3232 wrote:Stryper? Or are they as someone once mentioned Free Gracers?
I always thought Stryper was more free grace. But I could be wrong.

I don't mean to offend anyone or to start any theological arguments here, but I always had the impression that Stryper was a bit more... discerning than that. I've never scrutinized their lyrics nor read any interviews or whatnot so I have no idea. But the few quotes I've seen here or there didn't give me the free grace impression.

I'm so sorry if I confused you my friend. It goes back to an interview I read with sweet years ago during solo Era and I just remember the grace message he gave was really huge. It was clear he wasn't arminian and I just remember someone on Pastor Bob's videos not to long ago had brought up Stryper today was a free grace band or in the least a band who put total emphasis on grace. So who knows my friend I only have a slight understanding what free grace theology even is. I would to like hear what the band really thinks

by Opeth3232 Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:35 pm

Plus I'm going by what I read I don't have the whole context either

by Dustofyears Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:29 am

Frozen Fire wrote:
CrimsonWarrior wrote:I like sermons that are about God Himself, and not just about us.

Yes!

Honestly I wish there were more bands and quality artists that had their song lyrics bent this way. They are few and far between. I tend to love the old hymns because the rich theology and how often they exalt God primarily.

Most modern worship songs/bands have that U2 "Joshua Tree," Coldplay, bland singer songwriter sound and sing songs about us and what God does for us, rather than who He is. "Grace, grace, grace, love, love, love, I was broken but Jesus will solve all my problems." This is parody is brutal because of how true it is:

A love that Christian metal addresses topics that are very real to everyone's experience whether good or bad. There's been a lot of ministry through that approach through the years. Unfortunately, many Christian bands today, especially in the Christian hardcore/metalcore scene, have turned to "Here's the issue. I'm here for you and understand you and I'm angry about it and broken by it also..." There's no message, no hope and much of it is just plain angry.

I'd love this thread to be filled with bands that have incredible lyrics. I listen to things outside my style for that reason. It's the reason why I listen to My Epic, recently got into some Michael Card, and dove into some Christian rap years ago. If the words are deeply rooted and the music is good for what it is, I can find a way to enjoy it.

Oh man. So true. I remember it well. This is the coreusssss, this is the coreussss, drums getting louder, feeling overpowered...

This is with no exaggeration. A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, when I was quite young, I remember observing an altar call at church. I remember hands raised adoringly to the roof, eyes stained with tears, the music building and rising and building and rising, repeating and sacred tongues being spoken. I remember there were people trembling and being slain by the spirit (some shaking madly about on the floor like fish out of water). But what I remember most, was the bass player, Rick.

Rick had been a veteran of the worship team since time began, and on this particular night, as I stood in the pew like a rock with long black hair dressed in christian metal garb like some kind of metal angel (okay maybe not) he had caught my eye. His expression was priceless and from that simple look, I got all the information I needed. His look said this- I'm really bored with this, if not fed up. How many times do I have to see this. And look, it's generally the same people too. I wish I was in a real band. Wish they phones back then, because that look would be going straight to you tube.

by Kerrick Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:09 pm

Opeth3232 wrote:
Kerrick wrote:
Pethead wrote:
Opeth3232 wrote:Stryper? Or are they as someone once mentioned Free Gracers?
I always thought Stryper was more free grace. But I could be wrong.

I don't mean to offend anyone or to start any theological arguments here, but I always had the impression that Stryper was a bit more... discerning than that. I've never scrutinized their lyrics nor read any interviews or whatnot so I have no idea. But the few quotes I've seen here or there didn't give me the free grace impression.
I'm so sorry if I confused you my friend. It goes back to an interview I read with sweet years ago during solo Era and I just remember the grace message he gave was really huge. It was clear he wasn't arminian and I just remember someone on Pastor Bob's videos not to long ago had brought up Stryper today was a free grace band or in the least a band who put total emphasis on grace. So who knows my friend I only have a slight understanding what free grace theology even is. I would to like hear what the band really thinks

Interesting; thanks for sharing! I'd be curious too.

I'm a big believer in God's grace and think it's probably oftentimes overlooked. But to my understanding, what differentiates the "free grace" (aka "sinless perfection") movement from more orthodox beliefs is that they claim both instantaneous justification and sanctification. So once they're saved, they believe they no longer sin at all. The rest of us "normal" Christians (Arminians and Calvinists, etc.) are still in the dark and in need of their "gospel." If Michael and team have ever conceded any sin, they're most likely not free gracers.

by Pethead Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:48 pm

Kerrick wrote:
Opeth3232 wrote:
Kerrick wrote:
Pethead wrote:
Opeth3232 wrote:Stryper? Or are they as someone once mentioned Free Gracers?
I always thought Stryper was more free grace. But I could be wrong.

I don't mean to offend anyone or to start any theological arguments here, but I always had the impression that Stryper was a bit more... discerning than that. I've never scrutinized their lyrics nor read any interviews or whatnot so I have no idea. But the few quotes I've seen here or there didn't give me the free grace impression.
I'm so sorry if I confused you my friend. It goes back to an interview I read with sweet years ago during solo Era and I just remember the grace message he gave was really huge. It was clear he wasn't arminian and I just remember someone on Pastor Bob's videos not to long ago had brought up Stryper today was a free grace band or in the least a band who put total emphasis on grace. So who knows my friend I only have a slight understanding what free grace theology even is. I would to like hear what the band really thinks

Interesting; thanks for sharing! I'd be curious too.

I'm a big believer in God's grace and think it's probably oftentimes overlooked. But to my understanding, what differentiates the "free grace" (aka "sinless perfection") movement from more orthodox beliefs is that they claim both instantaneous justification and sanctification. So once they're saved, they believe they no longer sin at all. The rest of us "normal" Christians (Arminians and Calvinists, etc.) are still in the dark and in need of their "gospel." If Michael and team have ever conceded any sin, they're most likely not free gracers.

I thought by Free Grace you meant “easy-believism,” where you can receive Jesus as Savior but not as Lord. Where growth in holiness becomes optional.

Something like this:
https://faithalone.org/

I’ve never heard of Christian Perfectionism (or any stripe of Keswick thought, for that matter) as “Free Grace.”

by Kerrick Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:01 pm

Gotcha. I've been "evangelized" to numerous times by self-described free-gracers and that's what I described is what they adhered to. They used "free grace" and "sinless perfection" interchangeably. Though I agree, the title is quite deceptive...

by Pethead Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:03 pm

Kerrick wrote:Gotcha. I've been "evangelized" to numerous times by self-described free-gracers and that's what I described is what they adhered to. They used "free grace" and "sinless perfection" interchangeably. Though I agree, the title is quite deceptive...

Interesting! To be clear, I fit neither definition of Free Grace Bands With Reformed Theology - Page 4 1f60e

by Kerrick Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:00 pm

Good man!

by Soldier777 Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:02 pm

Regarding which bands are Reform or Armenist of whatever, what difference does it make? I don't mean to be rude. I will include my thoughts I mentioned in the Predestination and Free Will thread:

Romans 9, 10 and 11 talks about Israel's past, present and future and how we as gentiles are grafted in due to the promise of Israel, or the Jews, despite their disobediance. This is the only correct intreperation of those chapters as God as called Israel, who are his elect in the Old Testament. However, the Jews, like the gentiles, have to respond to salvation the same way. The Jews and us gentiles, despite our past disobediance, can make all things right. There is no racial differences whne it comes to salvation. All of us are on an even playing field. As a side note, that is also the answer to racial differences today. There is only 1 race, the human race with different cultures and skin tones.

Romans chapter 8 states:

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[i] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Any intreperation of who is saved or lost is messy business. God doesn't choose anybody to be saved or lost. Salvation is open to everyone and at the appointed time the Holy Spirit convicts all to salvation. However, he leaves it up to us to respond where he respects our free will.

There is also a chapter in Acts and I forget where that God appoints people to live in certian places of the world even the far reaches and in places that it would be difficult for a missionary to get to. I'm not discounting the need for missionaries as they are very important too. He will use himself, and angel, creation, visions and dreams, personal circumstances to get them the truth. God will use any means to get the truth to everyone. Depending on how much truth they get, they are responsible to respond to that truth. No one will go to hell and not know the reason they were put there and no one will think they got a raw deal.

We have to remember how God first called meny of the prominent characters in the Old and New Testaments - through a vision, dream, and angel, etc. He can use these same methods today to people all around the world. While we all think about those all over the world that are hard to reach, regardless if they are a neighbor that just won't bend a knee to the truth after being told, or someone thousands of kilometers away in a jungle somewhere, we can have faith in God that he is rich in mercy and eager to forgive once a repentant sinner is willing and able. He is also a just judge and will judge everyone fairly.

Sometimes we, myself included, get caught up where a person have to pray the sinners prayer and say the right words such as confess your sins and repent, believe on the name of Jesus and ask him in your heart to be saved or justified. That is the summarized version. Many people who have been rached with the gospel through the ages throuhg a vision, creation, etc sometime don't know who Jesus is but they responsed and believed. Years later a lightbulb went off and they discovered who Jesus is through a friend in their village, a vision or a missionary. Then they realized that was the one they believed in and accepted.

In addition, for about 20-25 years from when Christ started his ministry, people have been following his ways and doing the things he taught before a single word was written in the New Testament. It wasn't until around 50-55 AD that the gospels were started to be written down and passed around to the new believers as words of encouragement. We need to read the Bible as a first century believer in the Middle East. That is the perspective from how it was written.

I'm not a Calvinist. I lean towards Armenism but even that belief has it's flaws. I believe from what I read of scriptures is there is God's premissive will and his perfect will. If we think back to the fall of Satan/Lucifer, before that God's perfect will was being carried out. Unfortunately, God cast Lucifer down out of heaven. So the spiritual realm was divided. Then came the Garden of Eden. God made 2 perfect beings with a free will. He also had a tree that they weren't supposed to eat the fruit. Years could of gone by and at that point God's perfect will was being carried out at least on earth. You had the second rebellion that affected mankind by Adam and Eve eating the fruit. He created angels and humans with a free will. God being perfect love doesn't force his love on anyone. He allows them to make a free choice. God knew all of this was going to happen so he send his perfect Son to redeem back what was lost.

For God's perfect will, he would like for all the heavenly hosts and mankind to live in perfect harmony and not rebel - that's his perfect will. However, because of his character, his essence is perfect love. Because of this, he doesn't force anyone to love him and to follow him. He allows us to screw up many times and hopefully we will get on the right path before it's too late. An angel only has to screw up once and thay are kicked out. We can screw up many times and he is there to pick us up to get back on our feet.

His perfect will works with our free will to have a permissive will. The way I look at that is where the angels and mankind screwed up and rebelled, he is going to have what he intended on the Garden of Eden - a perfect world and direct fellowship with man. It may take a few thousand years, but in the end when he comes back it will all be made right when he sets up his Kingdom.

Also, I think God attracts or woos us to him by his love for us through his son. He is drawing mankind to him. Unfortunately, most don't get it and rejects him. There is our rebellious will that gets in the way. We want to be on our own throne of our life and not live by anybody's standard. If we choose to follow a standard or religion, we sometimes go about it the wrong way and pride gets in the way. As we continuously reject him he will eventually pull back and that is a dangerous place to be. It's like a fighter or space ship dog fight. God through his holy spirit has us in his sights and he loves us and want's to take us in. Eventually if we gets away he pulls back.

I love it in the Gospels when Jesus was calling his disciples. He made it so simple - come and follow me and I will make you fishers of men. I'm sure the first disciples were scratching their head and saying something like what the heck is he saying or what did we get ourselves into. Regardless of the sinners prayer we all prayed when we received Christ, what is involved is a change of heart. Our hearts need to be willing and available. That's as simple as it gets. To be willing to follow Christ and be available when he want's us to do something. I think when we witness to someone, those 2 words should be used - willing and available. That's what the first Christians were - willing to follow Christ and available to give up some of their time each day for God.

We can use theology and uses Calvinism, Armenism, Reform or what have you. He have to understand that when Christ started his ministry to about 55 AD, there wasn't a word written down to form a theology for the first Christians. The new testament wasn't started to be written until about 55 AD and they were basically documents/scrolls passed around believers to based on eye witness accounts to encourage each other and for learning. In addition, the first 200-300 years there weren't any denominations either. The Roman Catholic Church started around 300 AD and protestantism startred around 1500 AD. If there is any theological view point that are closest to scriptures it would be within the forst 100-200 years after the resurrection. Unfortunately we have all these denominations that can be in some cases a hinderance to the true teachings of the Bible. We need to read the Bible from an Middle Eastern point of view. For example, you know why in the New Testament people called themselves brothers and sisters? I think it's where people in the Middle East refer to each other as that. We say dude, buddy, my dear, me lass, etc. They say brother and sister as a sign of respect. In Turkey they say this.

At the end of the day when the gospel is being preached by a preacher or a Christian rock band or by witnessing, are we going to tell them that they need to be a reformist, armenist or whatever? That don't make not one difference. I presonally don't subscribed to any particular label. I'm Pentecost but a Christian first and my views have changed over the years and continue to change. I kind of look at refoem, armenism or what ever like the pre-trib, post or mid. I don't know when Christ is coming - I'll just be a part of the welcoming committee. However, my convictions leads me to think that if any one preaches Canlvinsim or Refom runs the risk of promoting a false gospel. That is my only concern for the believer, the rock band and the preacher that promote this. As Paul once wrote:

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! Galatians 1:8.

Someone mentioned what does Stryper subscribe to. I guess that depends on the members individually as there were member changes through the years. I think the Sweet brothers were raised Baptist and Baptists traditionally subscribe to Clavinism or Reform. My best guess they aren't because of the song Free as we all have a free choice - to reject God or receive him. Refoem indicates that some aren't given that choice.

Let us supposed that God didn't hand pick/not in his will for John Smith to be saved. Dick Jones who is a Christian spends 2 hours to convince John to be saved. Here are 2 scernarios:

1. John rejects the offer of salvation and lives his life as normal and dies a sinner and goes to Hell.
2. John accepts the offer of salvation and lives his life as a Christian until he dies. Where does John spend eternity? Those who rejects Reform/Calvinism says he would go to heaven. It's possible some Reformist would say he goes to Hell.

Do you get my point? Calvinsim is not true theology from what I see. Salvation is open to everyone.

by Pethead Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:18 pm

Kerrick wrote:Good man!

I like to think I'm the kind of Arminian that Calvinists like. Razz

by Kerrick Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:48 pm

Soldier777 wrote:Regaridng which bands are Reform or Armenist of whatever, what difference does it make?

I think we've discussed this in the past, but here are my thoughts. We're all here because we like to listen to music that aligns with our Christian beliefs. Some might be spiritually edified by Christian metal, others might just have a bad conscious listening to secular music, etc. So if you can apply that rationale to Christian music as a whole, why not to whatever specific brand of theology you subscribe to? If you're edified by Christian music, wouldn't you be all the more so if the lyrics line up with what you believe to be true?

by Black Rider Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:15 pm

I don't want to fight Soldier777 but Romans 9 obliterates what you are saying about permissive will etc. We are called spiritually dead and dead people can't suddenly choose life without the Spirit awakening them. Also consider verses like Acts 13:48 which says, all those appointed unto eternal life believed. As for your point 2, why would you say Reformed would say he goes to hell? Now, the Bible does say there are tares among the wheat but we would judge based on confession of faith and action.

by Soldier777 Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:45 pm

Kerick and Black Rider, I didn't meant to come across as argumentative starting with, "At the end of the day when the gospel is being preached by a preacheror a Christian rock band.........".

Black Rider, I think you are missing my point and I've edited point 2. I have read and studied a large part of the New Testament years before I heard of Calvinism of Reform Theology and I don't remember reading anything that point in that direction. Point 2 is a possible scernario. I'm not saying all Calvinist/Reformers think that. Also, Romans 9, 10 and 11 is about God's election of Israel and the nation's past, present and future through whom the Savior will come and has nothing to do with society in the New Testament to present being hand picked or "elected" to salvation. The "elect" refers to Old Testament believers, primarily the Jews and on occasion Gentiles like Rahab of Jericho when she took in the spies.

Romans 9, 10 and 11 is a detour from Romans 8 and 12 so Paul can talk about Israel and the Old Testament is qouted.

From all of this, I really have difficulty in believing or buying into Reformism or Calvinsm. It don't jive with my spirit from what I read in scriptures. It seems to me this thread is a repeat of the Predestination and Free Will thread. As I said before, if God elects certian people to salvation and a Christian does out to do one on one witnessing, how does he or she know that that person is not part of the elect or os supposed to go to heaven. Are we to play God ourselves and witness to certian people due to a hunch or a gut feeling or a supposed propmting of the Holy Spirit? If Calvinism is true, what kind of God do we all serve who refuses to save some people? If God elects certian people to be saved then they don't have free will. Because God is love, he doesn't make us robots and force us to love him. At the same time he don't not elect certian people to go to hell without a free will choice.

Also, I take Apologist Frank Turek view on this issue. Refer to these links: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zySTcfyytzk and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1i_6E3STUI. The first link is a long one.

Everyone here is predestined to believe what they want according to their free will, ha ha! I am predestined according to my free will to disagree with Reformism/Calvinism, ha ha! Everyone free will does not contradict against God's soverignity.

I want to emphasize this: I'm not being argumentative and I respect everyone here and not teying to convince anyone to change their view. I'm just trying to encourage everyone who adopts Calvinsim to be very careful and to rethink their position.

by CrimsonWarrior Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:26 pm

Soldier777, you clearly do not understand what Calvinism teaches, and this is my evidence:

Soldier777 wrote:John accepts the offer of salvation and lives his life as a Christian until he dies. Where does John spend etenrity? Those who rejects Reform/Calvinism says he would go to heaven. It's possible some Reformist would say he goes to Hell.

No one who subscribes to Reformed theology/Calvinism would ever say that someone who has trusted in Jesus for salvation will go to hell. If they do, then they are not Reformed, are not a Calvinist, and are not themselves a Christian, because they themselves have rejected the gospel.

Absolutely anyone who believes upon Jesus, trusts that He died for their sins on the cross, and has faith, is 100% guaranteed to be saved. It's all by God's grace, through faith. God never turns anyone away who calls upon Him.

The thing that people miss is the the Bible says that we were dead in our trespasses and sins. They that are in the flesh cannot please God. From our first moments of existence we all consciously choose, with our own free will, to rebel against God. And that does not change until He takes action. There's nothing innate in us that makes salvation convenient. Until God intervenes in our hearts, we are dead, and that is that. You say that God does not choose who is saved. If He didn't choose anyone, no one would be saved, and no one would believe. Not one of us caused our own birth, and not one person who is born again caused that to happen either.

Why evangelize? Why preach the gospel to all? Because faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. We don't know whom the Holy Spirit will regenerate, so we are called to evangelize and let God make the results happen. Not one person ever became a Christian by considering the evidence and weighing the two sides and making a simple decision. It always takes a supernatural miracle, for each and every one.

by Soldier777 Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:03 am

Crimson Warrior, perhaps I should of rephrased that point:

2. John accepts the offer of salvation and lives his life as a Christian until he dies. Where does John spend eternity? Those who rejects Reform/Calvinism says he would go to heaven. Is it possible some Reformist would say he would go to Hell anyway?

You are the second person that mentioned point 2. I only gave a general example. I'm only trying to understand The reasoning behind Calvinism or what grounds makes it true.

by Black Rider Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:17 am

Free will just means God isn't actually completely sovereign, starts to wander into open theism. Either God is the agent of salvation and knows whom he has chosen, as Jesus talks about, or he doesn't know those who will actually be saved and has to learn it.

by Soldier777 Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:34 am

Can someone here throw up a survey for a few categories at to what theological view they have:

Reform/Calvinist Baptist

Reform/Calvinist Other than Baptist

Armenism

Other

I'm not sure how to do this. It appears that there are quite a few that are Reform and it would be interesting to see the results. I would subscribe to the other category. At the end of the day, we will have to agree to disagree.

by Pethead Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:40 pm

I posted a bit about my views on the Predestination and Free Will thread in the Theology section. I included links to my blog posts on the subject if anyone is interested. (Probably not, but that's ok. My family still loves me Very Happy

).

by Soldier777 Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:56 pm

Pethead, I think we have 2 things in comon: We aren't Calvinist/Refomists and we both like Petra, ha ha! Armianism has its flaws and I don't realy subscribe to any theological view. I let the scriptures say what they say. As you can see from my post above, I explained my position which is man has a free will to accept or reject Christ and God doen't choose who will be saved and who is not choosen and salvation is open to everyone. The Holy Spirit draws mankind to the truth and a choice needs to be made.

by BaleMaster Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:01 am

Black Rider wrote:Free will just means God isn't actually completely sovereign, starts to wander into open theism. Either God is the agent of salvation and knows whom he has chosen, as Jesus talks about, or he doesn't know those who will actually be saved and has to learn it.

Straw man argument. Law of the excluded middle also.

by Black Rider Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:45 pm

As Acts 13 says, All those appointed unto eternal life believed. Notice the order.

by Frozen Fire Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:25 pm

This thread is way off now. These big posts are quite interesting but I'm not understanding how they add much at all toward the thread topic. Is someone going to bring this more clearly to the theology forum and leave this thread for it's original purpose? I was excited for the original purpose.

by Pethead Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:01 am

I johnnycanuck wrote:I am Canadian Reformed and Baptist ( A CRAB!) and enjoy listening to messages from Ligonier as much as William Lane Craig.

My favourite song of all time is by Tourniquet: Sola Christus

Very Reformed in theology.

Great tune! (And album!). I would also think Incommensurate from Pathogenic would fit comfortably in a reformed context. (Not only reformed, but you get my drift). I wonder if Victor Macias was/is reformed?

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