I believe there is a spiritual problem here on the CMR.

Look, Alldat has never been subtle about his feelings concerning the Theology section, he's been against it for years. His first post here he accused people of disrespecting the admins for even bringing this up here, then he just continued to make posts to shoot it down. He hates theology debates, I think it has little to do w/any other reason...

Seriously, I've seen more antagonism over what constitutes a certain genre of metal more than any theological debate!

exo wrote:The I would like for someone to specifically point out where staff has said "don't talk about God".

Well, when I see this as the room heading "General Talk..Talk about whatever...Except Theology - That's forbidden by the CMR rules" I kinda figure you dont want anyone to share their views on God in a  thread...  after all, what is theology? according to Webster ....
"the field of study and analysis that treats of God and of God's attributes and relations to the universe; study of divine things or religious truth; divinity."
"a particular form, system, branch, or course of this study."....
How can people of faith talk about a subject like homosexuality (for example) and not express their "theology" since their views and opinions are based on said theology... Maybe you mods should just produce a list of subjects that are unacceptable to post about..just a thought (I am on some other forums that do have a few subjects that are off limits to discuss)

Savage Amusement wrote:

exo wrote:The I would like for someone to specifically point out where staff has said "don't talk about God".

Well, when I see this as the room heading "General Talk..Talk about whatever...Except Theology - That's forbidden by the CMR rules" I kinda figure you dont want anyone to share their views on God in a  thread...  after all, what is theology? according to Webster ....
"the field of study and analysis that treats of God and of God's attributes and relations to the universe; study of divine things or religious truth; divinity."
"a particular form, system, branch, or course of this study."....
How can people of faith talk about a subject like homosexuality (for example) and not express their "theology" since their views and opinions are based on said theology... Maybe you mods should just produce a list of subjects that are unacceptable to post about..just a thought (I am on some other forums that do have a few subjects that are off limits to discuss)

Or, as an alternative, you could stop putting too fine a point on things and maybe.....just maybe......pay attention to what has been very clearly stated in the thread: the problem is not content, but conduct.  I'm a tiny bit sorry if that comes off as overtly hostile, but I am weary of repeating that this is a BEHAVIOR issue, not a subject matter one.

I will cede that the room description is clunky, and does not convey intent well. Perhaps it would be better stated that if one can not engage in religious discussion without the staff feeling said individual is constantly violating the aforementioned "Wheaton's Law", then perhaps it is better for one not to enter or initiate such discussion.  If someone comes here SPECIFICALLY to engage in religious "debate"........they are here for the wrong reasons:  we are a MUSIC forum.  I will work on changing the room description.

Candlemass if you are Not following me then you should check you first post in this thread to understand what I said, then read your second post on the thread and then read your third post, you did not add anything relevant to the conversation either. So it seems to me that you have something against alldat in which case I reiterate that you must take it privately with him. On the other hand you accused all Protestants as heretics I don't know if it is sarcasm or anything else on your part but leave it at as at this point the thread is having a nice, peaceful and civil discussion, let this post (mine) serve as your first warning.

Good grief!

Candlemass wrote:Look, Alldat has never been subtle about his feelings concerning the Theology section, he's been against it for years. His first post here he accused people of disrespecting the admins for even bringing this up here, then he just continued to make posts to shoot it down. He hates theology debates, I think it has little to do w/any other reason...

I know that; you know that; who doesn't know that? What does that matter? I've handled everyone's objection, including his, with respect and logic. What you wrote did nothing to address his concerns. Seems more like what Karam is saying that you are just exercising something personal that ought to be private. And that builds Exo's and others case that I'm wrong that there is more to the problem than just people being mean and unkind to each other here.

You know? Your first post bothered me but I chose to ignore it because I didn't want to encourage you to keep posting along those lines by responding. The less you post the better I can argue that your posts were mere outlier data.

Anyway, I get it that some of his attitudes can be frustrating, but I want to suggest to you to let it go. Furthermore, may I suggest that you think to follow Christ's command to 'love your enemies'?

The primary purpose of that is to honor God, but I think that you will be amazed also at how far love can go to build up broken relationships.

God bless.

ThomasEversole wrote:

"Can't imagine people rushing to turn their life over to Christ when you insult them. I know I wouldn't.
I'd resent you for it."

They need to know they are wicked before they can realize their need for a Savior. And for brothers in Christ, they need to know when they have sinned so they can be called to repentance.

Thomas also wrote:
"...also, you're a hypocrite unless you go to a temple and whip some money changers."

Of course I'm not. I'm not law enforcement and have no such authority to get physically involved. Jesus was, and is, their King, and had every right to do so. I have, however, stood in front of a number of churches with my protest signs, proclaiming that they are preaching and living a lie.

exo wrote:Wheaton's Law.  Look it up, if you're not familiar with it.  That's essentially all we really ask(expect) of people.


CMR corollary to Wheaton's Law:  if staff of CMR find someone to be in violation of Wheaton's Law, said poster's opinion on the matter is functionally irrelevant. Poster is expected to knock it off/alter behavior/find exit.  End of story, not debatable.

If one can not find (multiple) folks violating Wheaton's law in this thread, they are indeed blind.

OK, I get it what you are saying. My supposition that there's more going on here than just the stop gap measure closing the TR section and the forbidding of 'theology' discussions elsewhere in the forums to curb the many who can't discuss such matters without violating Wheaton. With all do respect, I'm not entirely convinced, but I want you to know that I'm not obstinate just to be obstinate. As such, I'll cede that point.

exo wrote:

D@v!d wrote:

exo wrote:The I would like for someone to specifically point out where staff has said "don't talk about God".  

https://thecmr.forumotion.com/t7158-please-read-theology-real

No.  re-read it carefully.  We DO NOT say "don't talk about God" in there.  If that's what you get out of it, your comprehension of things is a bit off......and you absolutely have not been paying attention over the last year in regards to exactly how much "religious" discussion has been happening without staff saying word one about it.

As I previously stated, your perception of this specific matter is flat out wrong.  Change it.

SA already explained much of how I see it and I read your response, so, I won't argue that further.

I still want to address some things though.


1st, I want to make it clear that this thread wasn't an attack on the admins here like some have suggested. My intention was to bring up a broad community discussion that included everyone.

I want to ask your patience with me and your help for me to better understand the issues here. I certainly didn't start this thread just to stir up dissension as some have suggested. I perceive a real issue here and I want to understand it and possibly resolve it, or at least start taking steps to do so.

I posted this because I was frustrated again that another thread was closed and the only reason seemed to be that it violated the 'theology' rule. And this isn't the first time. I get it when things get to real bad blood that it's better to close them, but I didn't see that being the case here and a few times before.

What's bothering me here is that it feels like a stifling environment whenever a discussion dips into the area of the bible whether ethics or eschatology, knowing that it then falls into the area of breaking the rules and the conversations will be artificially ended.

this is a BEHAVIOR issue, not a subject matter one.

I will cede that the room description is clunky, and does not convey intent well. Perhaps it would be better stated that if one can not engage in religious discussion without the staff feeling said individual is constantly violating the aforementioned "Wheaton's Law", then perhaps it is better for one not to enter or initiate such discussion.  If someone comes here SPECIFICALLY to engage in religious "debate"........they are here for the wrong reasons:  we are a MUSIC forum.  I will work on changing the room description.

What you say here really gives me hope. If all it has to do with is behavior and not subject matter, then I really don't have much more to say.

All I care for is to know that if a subject comes up that touches on ethics or whatnot and I respond presenting a biblical view in a respectful manner, that I'm not in violation of the rules.

I get it that this is a music forum, but it's more than just a music forum. It's a Christian music forum. There's a higher calling here. And as such it seems crazy that discussion of theology for it's own sake would be forbidden here. We have a great opportunity to minister to each other and to the world. What good is Christian music if it isn't worshiping God or ministering the to lost and hurting?

Thank you for taking the time to answer me.

Regards

d@v!d wrote:

Candlemass wrote:Look, Alldat has never been subtle about his feelings concerning the Theology section, he's been against it for years. His first post here he accused people of disrespecting the admins for even bringing this up here, then he just continued to make posts to shoot it down. He hates theology debates, I think it has little to do w/any other reason...

I know that; you know that; who doesn't know that? What does that matter? I've handled everyone's objection, including his, with respect and logic. What you wrote did nothing to address his concerns. Seems more like what Karam is saying that you are just exercising something personal that ought to be private. And that builds Exo's and others case that I'm wrong that there is more to the problem than just people being mean and unkind to each other here.

You know? Your first post bothered me but I chose to ignore it because I didn't want to encourage you to keep posting along those lines. The less you post the better I can argue that your posts were mere outlier data.

Anyway, I get it that some of his attitudes can be frustrating, but I want to suggest to you to let it go. Furthermore, may I suggest that you think to follow Christ's command to 'love your enemies'?

The primary purpose of that is to honor God, but I think that you will be amazed also at how far love can go to build up broken relationships.

God bless.

This is a prime example of how a mountain is made out of a mole hill, where did I show any hate towards him, or consider him my enemy? At any rate, doesn't bother me in the least if it ever comes back or not, just know you have less opponents of it coming back than you think...

Still, no one seem to acknowledge that about just as much animosity is stirred up w/metal debates, and dare I mention Tourniquet, Stryper or Roger Martinez? Heated debates will always happen on subjects people are passionate about, no one gets passionate about oatmeal...

Candlemass wrote:This is a prime example of how a mountain is made out of a mole hill, where did I show any hate towards him, or consider him my enemy? At any rate, doesn't bother me in the least if it ever comes back or not, just know you have less opponents of it coming back than you think...

Oh, the irony...
Yes, build that mountain. Where did I say you expressed hate?

Thanks for your support.

Candlemass wrote:Still, no one seem to acknowledge that about just as much animosity is stirred up w/metal debates, and dare I mention Tourniquet, Stryper or Roger Martinez? Heated debates will always happen on subjects people are passionate about, no one gets passionate about oatmeal...

I already did.

Whatever, I have nothing personal w/Alldat, no reason for me to "take this", whatever this is, to a pm...

exo wrote:

Savage Amusement wrote:

exo wrote:The I would like for someone to specifically point out where staff has said "don't talk about God".

  I will work on changing the room description.

 You did a good job! 

Candlemass wrote:no one gets passionate about oatmeal...

I stand corrected...

Candlemass wrote:Look, Alldat has never been subtle about his feelings concerning the Theology section, he's been against it for years. His first post here he accused people of disrespecting the admins for even bringing this up here, then he just continued to make posts to shoot it down. He hates theology debates, I think it has little to do w/any other reason...

It isn't theology or even that section that I hate.  First of all, don't assume that I hate just because I disagree strongly.  What bothers me about that room is that it always seems to be fueled with people on every possible extreme who use their position to insult and tear down others.  There was rarely any building up.  The spiritual problems of this board have been highlighted by others several posts back:  the main contenders treat one another with total disrespect.  There is no love of Christ in that.  Add that to the fact that each heated "debate" just becomes an unending circular debate that is truly nothing more than a denominational peeing contest.  I am only stating what I feel.  Arttie doesn't have to listen to me, and I would respect whatever he decides as this is his house and his rules.

You don't seem to be reading what I'm writing well. I'm not and haven't been asking for a room. I made the observation that there is a spiritual problem here as evidenced by the fact that this is a 'Christian' message board where you can't speak your opinion on anything that touches religion too much and I suspect that it's because it's too offensive some. Am I wrong about that?

You don't seem to be reading what I am saying at all.  The spiritual problem is not that the staff closed down religious arguing and bickering.  It is the way that people treated one another when we did still have that section that closed things down.  Driven clearly stated that before but was largely ignored.  It is a shame when it is so clear to so many what the real issues are.

Adam wrote:

ThomasEversole wrote:If an addendum was made to the rules that no flaming/insults/degradation of including (but not limited to) persons in the media, organizations, ways of thinking, beliefs different from their own, music preference, genres of music, etc. is allowed.  “Everyone is welcome to disagree, but don’t speak in negative connotations to something/someone that another forum member may be emotionally/mentally/spiritually involved in.

But this is an unBiblical approach. Calling people names is perfectly acceptable by Christ's standards if they deserve it. Please see the following:

Matthew 23:27, Jesus called out the Pharisees and said they were like "whitewashed tombs"
Matthew 23:33, Jesus called the Pharisees "Serpents, brood of vipers!"
Luke 13:32, Jesus called Herod a "fox"
Matthew 15:26, Jesus called the Canaanite woman a "little dog"

Im kinda along here, I dont post often, but whenever I do I seem to make people upset. I give biblical foundations for my reasoning and welcome a dialogue. If anything wouldnt it be better to warn someone if they are listening to a false teacher than to just allow it? Like If I really want a cookie but im wading through a mine field, please... please tell me...

alldatndensum wrote:You don't seem to be reading what I'm writing well. I'm not and haven't been asking for a room. I made the observation that there is a spiritual problem here as evidenced by the fact that this is a 'Christian' message board where you can't speak your opinion on anything that touches religion too much and I suspect that it's because it's too offensive some. Am I wrong about that?

You don't seem to be reading what I am saying at all.  The spiritual problem is not that the staff closed down religious arguing and bickering.  It is the way that people treated one another when we did still have that section that closed things down.  Driven clearly stated that before but was largely ignored.  It is a shame when it is so clear to so many what the real issues are.

I guess I wasn't reading you well. I didn't see where you were saying such so explicitly. All I was getting from you was that you thought I was vying for the TR and I should stay in my place and follow the 'house' rules. But look. I understand what you just reiterated very well. If you look at my first post it was that very mantra that I was calling into question. I understood it then but was merely calling it into question. I'm not dumb. I read well enough. Just because I disagree with an argument doesn't mean I don't understand it. Also, if you payed attention to the dialog I've had with Exo here, you'd see that I've already ceded that. So, it's cool. You have all been very gracious in responding to my concerns and I'm done with the subject since 10 hours ago now.

Are we at the point where this thread is ceasing to be productive?

exo wrote:Are we at the point where this thread is ceasing to be productive?

I most certainly think so. I'm long done with my inquiry. I think that we have all had enough food for thought and understand each other better than before. I think the dialog serves as a grand reinforcement of the declaration of the rules and goals of the board. So, if you are inclined at any point here forward to lock it, I'm quite fine with that.

Done.