Re: Did you ever realize how much of the music you love just simply sucks?

by Guest Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:29 pm

Friday13th wrote:
NoOneIsHere wrote:
Friday13th wrote:hmm...I had that moment about six years ago when I realized all my music was very dull and generic. That was essentially year 0 for my music taste, but I haven't really "recanted" much since then. I might enjoy some stuff more or less, but almost all the music I've compiled these six years has held some value to me.

"all my music was very dull and generic"

Yep, that is where I am generally at

I think this may be my year 0

That can be a good feeling if you know which direction to go! So do you have an idea of what music ISN'T "dull and generic" and will work for ya? See, I kinda knew my music wasn't super special and started noticing the similarities, how predictable it was etc. but it took me a while before I found something that WASN'T like that.

To clarify, I'm talking I was listening to mainstream Christian hard rock, rap and some secular radio rock bands. My favorite Christian artists were Tobymac, Pillar, Skillet, Red, Lecrae, and secular were 3 Doors Down, Breaking Benjamin, Three Days Grace...I even went to a Nickelback concert (though somehow, even silly me knew they were generic ). But, it took me till I heard Metallica's "Master of Puppets" to be like "dude, these guys aren't trying to sound like anybody else...they just rule on their own terms."

I assume you're primarily referring to your Christian stuff being bad. My music collection is like 90% secular, so I can't say I'm an expert on this. If it makes you feel any better, I still think Christian metal has a good variety of music compared to any other Christian versions of genres. My favorite genre is progressive rock (primarily from the 70s), and it's because there is a huge spectrum of diversity from a band to band basis. Unfortunately, there are like 10 Christian prog bands I've even heard and possibly three that are decent enough to listen to imo (Neal Morse obviously being the crowned king). I have become a lot more picky, so merely "capable" or sound-alike bands don't cut it for me. My advice is to continue branching out into other forms of music like you've done with classical. My parents had me take piano lessons (knowledge that has really helped me discover what bands are doing musically) and I grew up hearing Baroque music a lot (talk about predictable!). However, then I've branched out into Romantic, 20th Century, and some really avant-garde stuff like Schoenberg and Stockhausen. I know this is a bad word around here...but J-A-Z-Z is very cool too and greatly varied if you dig in deep

Like you, I think jazz can be extremely cool..especially live and especially when done well.

I have really gotten into classical music recently, and orchestra scores for movies....soundtrack music can be so incredible.

Mostly what I am drawn to right now is instrumental..sans vocals/lyrics

In terms of rock/metal...I still love Stryper, but find myself listening almost exclusively to their stuff from Murder By Pride to now..rarely listening to the older albums. GX and Armageddon USA I find entertaining because it is simply down and dirty rock. Old Whitecross stuff still rocks.

by Guest Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:34 pm

strype53 wrote:I find myself in this boat of listening to bands I thought were awesome back in the day, but now not so much, but I have sometimes found myself on the other side of listening to a band that I did not like back them, but find myself liking them now.

I have done that too.

Steve Taylor is one that I wasn't that thrilled with back then...but I like his stuff better now. Although I like his new album far better than anything else he has ever done

by MikeInFla Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:53 am

NoOneIsHere wrote:

Like you, I think jazz can be extremely cool..especially live and especially when done well.

I have really gotten into classical music recently, and orchestra scores for movies....soundtrack music can be so incredible.

Mostly what I am drawn to right now is instrumental..sans vocals/lyrics

Same here, I have recently discovered what is called "Space Age Bachelor Pad Music". It was popular in the late 40's, 50's and early 60's. I have been buying albums from Esquivel, Martin Denny, Les Baxter and a few others. This is what it sounds like:

Some of it on vinyl can be found cheap, others are very expensive. I was wanting this particular album on vinyl and used copies on eBay go anywhere from $70 to $150. The cover art alone makes it worth getting if I can find it for a great price:
Did you ever realize how much of the music you love just simply sucks? - Page 2 160265574_ba5f0e4fc0_b

Did you ever realize how much of the music you love just simply sucks? - Page 2 160265574_ba5f0e4fc0_b

As for Christian Metal I still love Saint, Bloodgood, Barren Cross, etc. Last year I found Rock For The King on vinyl and it was just as good as I remembered it (although it has a couple of stinkers on it). It's really the only "old" release I rediscovered that sounds as good as I remembered. As I mentioned before Detonation was always a favorite and when IMR reissued it I was excited. Then I played it and while it was still really good it wasn't like I remembered it but it had to do with the thin production... And I think that is why I like "Nineteen Eighty Seven" better than the first Whitecross album. The modern production made it so much better.. And it;s hard to believe it was released over 10 years ago now!

by Friday13th Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:46 am

MikeInFla wrote:
NoOneIsHere wrote:

Like you, I think jazz can be extremely cool..especially live and especially when done well.

I have really gotten into classical music recently, and orchestra scores for movies....soundtrack music can be so incredible.

Mostly what I am drawn to right now is instrumental..sans vocals/lyrics

Same here, I have recently discovered what is called "Space Age Bachelor Pad Music". It was popular in the late 40's, 50's and early 60's. I have been buying albums from Esquivel, Martin Denny, Les Baxter and a few others. This is what it sounds like:

DUDE YES! I discovered Space Age Pop not too long ago. That song is originally from the '47 Music Out of the Moon, which is the one I'm trying to hunt down for cheap. Did you know that it's the first popular record to use the theremin and Neil Armstrong played it in space on the Apollo 11 mission? Unbelievable stuff. As you said, the vinyls are quite out of my buying league, so I'll probably settle withe the CD compilation that comes with both those albums.

by Guest Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:24 am

MikeInFla wrote:
NoOneIsHere wrote:

Like you, I think jazz can be extremely cool..especially live and especially when done well.

I have really gotten into classical music recently, and orchestra scores for movies....soundtrack music can be so incredible.

Mostly what I am drawn to right now is instrumental..sans vocals/lyrics

Same here, I have recently discovered what is called "Space Age Bachelor Pad Music". It was popular in the late 40's, 50's and early 60's. I have been buying albums from Esquivel, Martin Denny, Les Baxter and a few others. This is what it sounds like:

Some of it on vinyl can be found cheap, others are very expensive. I was wanting this particular album on vinyl and used copies on eBay go anywhere from $70 to $150. The cover art alone makes it worth getting if I can find it for a great price:

As for Christian Metal I still love Saint, Bloodgood, Barren Cross, etc. Last year I found Rock For The King on vinyl and it was just as good as I remembered it (although it has a couple of stinkers on it). It's really the only "old" release I rediscovered that sounds as good as I remembered. As I mentioned before Detonation was always a favorite and when IMR reissued it I was excited. Then I played it and while it was still really good it wasn't like I remembered it but it had to do with the thin production... And I think that is why I like "Nineteen Eighty Seven" better than the first Whitecross album. The modern production made it so much better.. And it;s hard to believe it was released over 10 years ago now!

Great cover.. pig

I will take a listen later tonight when I get home

by Guest Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:40 am

There is also another dynamic within 80's Christian Metal that was way more important than how the band sounded on a cassette tape, record or compact disc. That being ministry. Most, if not all of the early bands began in that capacity in one way or another. When it became more important to sell records (make money) than evangelize and minister, the paradigm within the scene shifted and you really began to see the cracks and witness those falling through them that were mot sincere in what they were doing.

I was a part of the Sanctuary scene. What it began as and what it became is night and day. As the ministry faded, the emphasis focused on product. A lot of the more talented and spiritually focused
musicians jumped ship, jaded by watching something God had created become another endeavor man thought he had the better plan with and for. You take God from the equation and it's no wonder what the finished outcome will become in the end.

Take bands like Neon Cross, Elijah John, Holy Right, Redeemer, Contagious, and Towne Cryer. On the surface based on what was done in a recording studio, most dismiss them on that premise alone. Knowing nothing about them aside from that. All those bands were great music ministries and answered the call God had on their lives. That is something way more important than how well the music was recorded or an assumption on how well they "actually" played their instruments. What really "sucks" to me is seeing people place merit on something that is secondary in the grand scheme of things.

by 6stringgrind Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:00 am

Sorry, but I disagree with you, James. If your ministry is music, you dang well better be good at music. You're looking at it from a different perspective than the people who these bands were trying to reach. If the music isn't top-notch, you won't even get your foot in the door with the average unsaved listener. At that point, your ministry stalls out. The music and the ministry go hand in hand; there is no secondary aspect. It is extremely important that the music is high-quality, or nobody's going to hear the message.

by Guest Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:03 pm

Well said 6stringgrind...

James B...
I disagree with your whole statement. If someone uses their job to reach others, that means they don't have to be good at it? Hogwash.

How about a paramedic that witnesses to their patients and coworkers? What if they sucked at their job?

If I am expected to pay for music...then the artist is expected to put out quality music.

by Candlemass Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:06 pm

Actually, I think most of the music I enjoy doesn't suck...

by Friday13th Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:17 pm

Yes and no, James.
Maybe and no, 6stringgrind Smile

I understand what you're saying, James, but the problem is you're off topic. The title is "did you ever realize how much of the music you love just simply sucks?" We can critique products of art apart from the people creating them. Yes, the quality of music is not a primary concern in the grand scheme of life, but you can't use a musician's ministry and personal devotion to God as a free pass from musical critique. That's what we're doing here, not a human being critique.

6stringgrind and NoOneIsHere, I don't think it's fair to judge ministry on how much we like the music. That much is clear. We need to judge music based on music and minsitry based on ministry.

by Guest Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:24 pm

Friday13th wrote:

6stringgrind and NoOneIsHere, I don't think it's fair to judge ministry on how much we like the music. That much is clear. We need to judge music based on music and minsitry based on ministry.

I can agree with that....

by eatbugs Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:35 pm

Friday13th wrote:almost all the music I've compiled these six years has held some value to me.

Name some please. You mentioned Neal Morse in another post, what others?

by Friday13th Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:30 pm

If you want Christian progressive rock besides Neal Morse, I like Echolyn, Iona/David Bainbridge, and Glass Hammer (the latter being a pretty obvious Yes clone but a good one).

Echolyn is the best next to Morse. In some ways very similar due to a good dose of Gentle Giant but with more melody. Check Suffocating the Bloom and After the World.

You might be familiar with Iona. Kinda like Enya but more progressive. Robert Fripp produced one of their albums! David Bainbridge also has solo stuff which is more guitar-driven and really nice.

Glass Hammer is admittedly very Yes, but they have some good moments. This album has the most clearly Christian message, so I'd start here. No point in listening to a Christian Yes clone if it doesn't sound Christian, no? Razz

by sentient 6 Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:27 pm

Its true that some christian music is sub-par and some are simply a clone of a secular band. I wasn't a Christian in the hey-day of christian metal in the 80s, so I didn't care about picking up everything that came out. If I liked a band after hearing it, then I would make it a regular listen. But I didn't rely on christian metal because I still listened to 95% secular music back then.

But now, my problem is with sub-par christian lyrics. Vague or disguised lyrics do not interest me at all when it comes to being encouraged in the faith. This is the main reason the last few DLs I have bought have been christian hip hop artists. There is a movement within this genre that really gets what it means to make music that is scriptural centered and proclaims the Gospel in a clear and bold way. Music that is worshipful because it focuses on what the scriptures say about the nature of God, the nature of salvation and what it means to live a life set apart unto God.

by Guest Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:55 pm

I sometimes enjoy a bit of "sucky" music. It can have a quirkiness which appeals to me.

by Guest Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:07 am

6stringgrind wrote:Sorry, but I disagree with you, James. If your ministry is music, you dang well better be good at music. You're looking at it from a different perspective than the people who these bands were trying to reach. If the music isn't top-notch, you won't even get your foot in the door with the average unsaved listener. At that point, your ministry stalls out. The music and the ministry go hand in hand; there is no secondary aspect. It is extremely important that the music is high-quality, or nobody's going to hear the message.

You missed my point I suppose ? The band's I listed had very poor recordings of their music. If you are judging a music ministry by what you only bought and never saw them perform. You are more than likely missing out on a majority of what they might bring to the table.

by Guest Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:14 am

NoOneIsHere wrote:Well said 6stringgrind...

James B...
I disagree with your whole statement. If someone uses their job to reach others, that means they don't have to be good at it? Hogwash.

How about a paramedic that witnesses to their patients and coworkers? What if they sucked at their job?

If I am expected to pay for music...then the artist is expected to put out quality music.

That isn't what was implied, my point was based on what may have been only heard on a poorly recorded session and the band may have had a lot more to offer if you happened to see them perform. If you are a music ministry and are only relying on what somebody can buy, perhaps you have no business being that. The job thing is funny because evangelism isn't a job brother, it's something else altogether. As far as being good at it, that is and always will be a subjective matter.

by Guest Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:34 am

Friday13th wrote:Yes and no, James.
Maybe and no, 6stringgrind

I understand what you're saying, James, but the problem is you're off topic. The title is "did you ever realize how much of the music you love just simply sucks?"

I just offered up another perspective on why some dynamic(s) may have influenced individual outcomes/situations. I personally believe music from a band is more than what can be held in your hand. If you never saw a band perform, how can you really make a valid opinion on whether they "suck" in you own opinion ?

All the Christian bands held in high regard were not always as good as they became. As I mentioned, being from So. Calif. and personally involved in the Christian music scene, that was something witnessed first hand.

Good and bad is subjective. How much can really be discussed when you have a goal post set up as to what is on or off topic ? If you allow the debate to come to fruition, more often than not it comes full circle.

I guess that isn't going to happen here, so I offer up a sincere apology for being problematic and getting off topic.

by Guest Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:52 am

James B. wrote:
NoOneIsHere wrote:Well said 6stringgrind...

James B...
I disagree with your whole statement. If someone uses their job to reach others, that means they don't have to be good at it? Hogwash.

How about a paramedic that witnesses to their patients and coworkers? What if they sucked at their job?

If I am expected to pay for music...then the artist is expected to put out quality music.

That isn't what was implied, my point was based on what may have been only heard on a poorly recorded session and the band may have had a lot more to offer if you happened to see them perform. If you are a music ministry and are only relying on what somebody can buy, perhaps you have no business being that. The job thing is funny because evangelism isn't a job brother, it's something else altogether. As far as being good at it, that is and always will be a subjective matter.

Majority of the bands do it as a job because they love music. Not for the ministry. Some bands will try to justify their love of music by attempting to use it as ministry.

Anyway, as a music fan, I judge music based off it's quality...not it's intention

by Guest Sat Aug 15, 2015 8:00 am

I said it before and I will say it again...

I don't need my music to "minister" to me.....I want my music to be clean and devoid of sex, drugs, alcohol, cussing, etc etc and come from people who have relatively the same beliefs I do (like I have no desire to listen to Muslim rockers no matter how clean the lyrics could be..lol )

[Funny that I don't hold my movies to the same standard..how odd....oh well.. ]

Music to me is entirely entertainment.

When I want ministered to, I will pray, read my Bible, or go seek the counsel of a trusted advisor. Not some rock star.

I saw first hand in the 80s how phoney the alter calls were that a lot of these bands did.....no thanks....I'll look elsewhere for my nourishment.

Again, not saying there aren't bands with great hearts for the people..Scott Wenzel comes to mind as someone who genuinely cares for reaching people...but most bands it is a lifestyle they choose because they love music, not because they are trying to reach people. If they weren't Christian, they would still be playing music.

by Friday13th Sat Aug 15, 2015 8:44 am

Headshrinker wrote:I sometimes enjoy a bit of "sucky" music. It can have a quirkiness which appeals to me.

haha I'm guessing you enjoy it more than "sometimes"...you're avatar is The Shaggs! Might I suggest Captain Beefheart - Trout Mask Replica?

by Friday13th Sat Aug 15, 2015 8:55 am

James B. wrote:
Friday13th wrote:Yes and no, James.
Maybe and no, 6stringgrind

I understand what you're saying, James, but the problem is you're off topic. The title is "did you ever realize how much of the music you love just simply sucks?"

I just offered up another perspective on why some dynamic(s) may have influenced individual outcomes/situations. I personally believe music from a band is more than what can be held in your hand. If you never saw a band perform, how can you really make a valid opinion on whether they "suck" in you own opinion ?

All the Christian bands held in high regard were not always as good as they became. As I mentioned, being from So. Calif. and personally involved in the Christian music scene, that was something witnessed first hand.

Good and bad is subjective. How much can really be discussed when you have a goal post set up as to what is on or off topic ? If you allow the debate to come to fruition, more often than not it comes full circle.

I guess that isn't going to happen here, so I offer up a sincere apology for being problematic and getting off topic.

Alright man, I'm not saying you're off-topicness must be taken out of the discussion, I'm just reminding you that we were just critiquing the music (and around the internet it's assumed to be recorded material). The live aspect is a good point, and I can see why it would bother you if people disliked a band that in a live setting sounded incredibly good, but they just released a crappy EP. I'm a bit skeptical as most would be though. You could say they're good, but what readily available evidence is there? I could maybe look up some bad quality live videos. Most of us were admittedly not a part of the California scene or anything like that, so yes we are just critiquing recorded material. Unfair maybe, but that's all I can get my hands on. I'm glad you got to enjoy some bands first hand, and deep down I wish I were there!

by Guest Sat Aug 15, 2015 2:08 pm

Friday13th wrote:
Headshrinker wrote:I sometimes enjoy a bit of "sucky" music. It can have a quirkiness which appeals to me.

haha I'm guessing you enjoy it more than "sometimes"...you're avatar is The Shaggs! Might I suggest Captain Beefheart - Trout Mask Replica?

You got me tongue

. Love me some Captain Beefheart.

by alldatndensum Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:00 am

The problem isn't just a Christian issue, though. There were a ton of 80s bands that the major labels released that were subpar. They flooded their own market with ripoffs of the big hits. Even some of the more popular bands, if you listen to their first album or so, are more cheesy and the quality is much lower than what they became. Bands like Bon Jovi, Motley Crue, Ratt and a handful of others come to mind. Their first efforts were enough to get them out there and the labels/producers were able to turn them into something bigger. That happened for some in the Christian market and not others. I think it is way more visible, however, in the Christian scene because there were not as many bands to pick from. You got what you got.

by Guest Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:33 am

NoOneIsHere wrote:I said it before and I will say it again...

I don't need my music to "minister" to me.....I want my music to be clean and devoid of sex, drugs, alcohol, cussing, etc etc and come from people who have relatively the same beliefs I do

So you want it to encourage, edify, and uplift you ?

If so, that is what "minister" means.

You also stated "I saw first hand in the 80s how phoney the alter calls were that a lot of these bands did.....no thanks....I'll look elsewhere for my nourishment."

Why would an alter call be a source of nourishment for a believer ? That is something done for non-believers. That is a bold statement to judge the validity of one's heart, be it the one asking another to come forward and the one doing so. The act itself is a spiritual thing and assessing it on an outward observation gives the perception that God gave you the gift of some really powerful discernment.

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