Believer have stopped being a Christian band

Kerrick wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:To me, it's not complicated.

Discuss their old albums/shows/activities in this forum.

Discuss whatever they've done since their apostasy in the secular forum.

Complicated indeed...  What constitutes a "Christian band" is probably the single most argued-about topic on here as well - which doesn't help clarify.  I try to be pretty lenient about that stuff and only move threads if it's especially obvious.

If a band explicitly tells you that they are not a Christian band and have no Biblically inspired lyrics then it's an open-and-shut case.

Temple of Blood wrote:If Believer had been on Intense Records and not Roadrunner Records, they would've never gotten much secular praise IMHO.  "The New Breed"
promo campaign from Roadrunner in the 90s really helped elevate their status far beyond what they deserved IMHO.

Isn't that pretty much the case with every Christian band out there though?

On Christian labels the bands were mostly known by only Christians, and whatever secular praise any Christian band got it happened only after being signed to a secular label. Part of the problem was that these Christian labels mostly seemed to market their bands only to Christians, getting them on Christian music festivals and selling the records mostly on Christian stores. That was really shortsighted from them, especially considering the bands were supposed to be evangelical in nature.

What comes to Believer's talent and music, I think they were clearly way above average what comes to tightness of playing, sense of aggressiveness and memorable riffs and other extra details. But then again, to each their own. I personally am looking for certain things when I'm trying to find music that I like and Believer had some that fit straight into what I've always liked. In their debut album, sure, there are some songs that are somewhat average, but that album also has several songs that instantly became some of my all time favorite metal songs and they still are on that list. I love Unite, Vile Hypocrisy, Shadow of Death and the title track. All of those tracks are 5/5 tracks for me and heavy metal classics. Sanity Obscure has a couple of 5/5 tracks too (the title track and Dies Irae). Dimensions has The Trilogy of Knowledge of which Movement II: The Truth is an absolute classic to me, one of the best songs ever made in general. I don't care that much about the rest of the album though. Singularity is a nice track.

There are so many bands from the 80's and the 90's that have zero 5/5 songs in any of their albums for me. And some of those bands are really big too. For example, I haven't been able to get into Exodus or Testament despite trying over and over again. There's just something with those bands that doesn't click with me. So comparing to that I feel like Believer hasn't been overrated at any point (well, maybe Dimensions gets way too much praise for what it is).


What comes to the current state of Believer, at least a few years ago they showed they still have what it takes.
Here's a show from 2018:



The two "new guys" are pretty uncharismatic on stage, but Kurt still has the energy needed for a live musician. And Joey Daub too! The whole band plays very tight together even though two of them aren't really showmen of any type. This set consists only of the thrashier and faster songs and has a cover of Sacrifices Re-Animation too, played perfectly! It's also nice to see they aren't shy to play their old songs. There's one from the debut, two from Sanity Obscure. So whatever Kurt's beliefs might be, he isn't shy to sing their old lyrics - Wisdom's Call even boldly states that find wisdom through Christ and you'll have life. They could've chosen any other song to play that doesn't have direct mention of Christ, but they chose to perform that song in a set of only seven songs (of which one even is a cover of another band). Could be it means something, could be it doesn't.

In any case, by the time they are playing Sanity Obscure you got to appreciate the stamina of Joey Daub on the drums. And Kurt's riffing hand is super tight too, especially considering he's also singing at the same time.

Temple of Blood wrote:Take away the Christianity aspect of early Believer, and their music is just not special.  Not awful, but just not exceptional in the sea of thousands of thrash bands.  Tourniquet have always been ten times the band they are, musically and now spiritually as well.  If Believer had been on Intense Records and not Roadrunner Records, they would've never gotten much secular praise IMHO.  "The New Breed"
promo campaign from Roadrunner in the 90s really helped elevate their status far beyond what they deserved IMHO.  They actually compared them to Cynic in terms of quality, which is just laughable.  It's like comparing Chumbawumba to Led Zeppelin.

Nah. I know my opinion here is null and void- due to the fact I'm not a "christian" Cause that's how the game rolls with you guys (don't I know it). But Believer have their own sound, their own voice. those leads, those dark melodic twisting melodies are unmistakably Believer and you know it's believer when you hear them- ain't no one got that. It's even in Transhuman. It's part of their D.N.A as a band. They don't stick to the standard double kick patterns or thrash norms, and their rhythm attack is again "Uniquely" Believer.

What I don't wanna hear from a christian metal band is an imitation of secular band- Don't wanna hear a Christian Metallica or Slayer or Anthrax or whatever. Influence is fine, but bring your own voice to the table in all that. Believer did just that and deserve what ever credit they garnered.

It sure would be awkward backstage if Believer and ToB were playing a gig together. I wonder which band would have the better crowd reaction? 

I’m a big fan of the first 3 Believer albums. The musicianship is excellent and they have their own sound. However, part of their appeal for me is the lyrics. Just speaking musically, their songwriting, while solid, doesn’t grab me enough to put them in the upper tier of thrash for me. Solid, but not one of my absolute favorites from a musical standpoint. Just my personal taste.

Dustofyears wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:Take away the Christianity aspect of early Believer, and their music is just not special.  Not awful, but just not exceptional in the sea of thousands of thrash bands.  Tourniquet have always been ten times the band they are, musically and now spiritually as well.  If Believer had been on Intense Records and not Roadrunner Records, they would've never gotten much secular praise IMHO.  "The New Breed"
promo campaign from Roadrunner in the 90s really helped elevate their status far beyond what they deserved IMHO.  They actually compared them to Cynic in terms of quality, which is just laughable.  It's like comparing Chumbawumba to Led Zeppelin.

Nah. I know my opinion here is null and void- due to the fact I'm not a "christian" Cause that's how the game rolls with you guys (don't I know it). But Believer have their own sound, their own voice. those leads, those dark melodic twisting melodies are unmistakably Believer and you know it's believer when you hear them- ain't no one got that. It's even in Transhuman. It's part of their D.N.A as a band. They don't stick to the standard double kick patterns or thrash norms, and their rhythm attack is again "Uniquely" Believer.

What I don't wanna hear from a christian metal band is an imitation of secular band- Don't wanna hear a Christian Metallica or Slayer or Anthrax or whatever. Influence is fine, but bring your own voice to the table in all that. Believer did just that and deserve what ever credit they garnered.

I think you're giving them way too much credit for having creativity and original sound because you're not very familiar with the discography of Sacrifice and Destruction, where Believer got a lot of their influence from.  

You also lost me when you started gushing over their leads.  

If i didn't think your opinion counted i wouldn't bother responding to it

Temple of Blood wrote:

Dustofyears wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:Take away the Christianity aspect of early Believer, and their music is just not special.  Not awful, but just not exceptional in the sea of thousands of thrash bands.  Tourniquet have always been ten times the band they are, musically and now spiritually as well.  If Believer had been on Intense Records and not Roadrunner Records, they would've never gotten much secular praise IMHO.  "The New Breed"
promo campaign from Roadrunner in the 90s really helped elevate their status far beyond what they deserved IMHO.  They actually compared them to Cynic in terms of quality, which is just laughable.  It's like comparing Chumbawumba to Led Zeppelin.

Nah. I know my opinion here is null and void- due to the fact I'm not a "christian" Cause that's how the game rolls with you guys (don't I know it). But Believer have their own sound, their own voice. those leads, those dark melodic twisting melodies are unmistakably Believer and you know it's believer when you hear them- ain't no one got that. It's even in Transhuman. It's part of their D.N.A as a band. They don't stick to the standard double kick patterns or thrash norms, and their rhythm attack is again "Uniquely" Believer.

What I don't wanna hear from a christian metal band is an imitation of secular band- Don't wanna hear a Christian Metallica or Slayer or Anthrax or whatever. Influence is fine, but bring your own voice to the table in all that. Believer did just that and deserve what ever credit they garnered.

I think you're giving them way too much credit for having creativity and original sound because you're not very familiar with the discography of Sacrifice and Destruction, where Believer got a lot of their influence from.  

You also lost me when you started gushing over their leads.  

If i didn't think your opinion counted i wouldn't bother responding to it

Nope. You assume way too much.  Both those bands sound more like early Slayer, what with the high scream and what not. In fact, both those bands just sound like bland thrash with no particular unique voice. If anything, Believer sound more influenced by Pestilence, but I'm sure, like all thrash bands, they are influenced by a bunch of thrash and metal bands on the whole.

But in the end of the day Believer sound like Believer. To be exact- it is the combination of twisted atonal leads and melodies and the combined efforts of phyrgian and locrian like melodic counterpart and harmonized guitar lines locked into the grid of non typical thrash drumming (takes a breath) and the choice of notes, tone and the fact they don't play at blistering speeds most of the time and go for more dark lines with bits of speedy passages- that makes their sound "Believer." It stands out a mile away. Amongst the Smouldering heap of generic thrash, there are those that stand above the rest for good reason.

Those "Overrated old guard bands," as you call them, all had something unique enough mixed in their thrash to make them stand out from the crowd. Believer was one of them, and too, Seventh angel and Vengeance Rising.

I don't see anything in that interview nor in any of the other interviews I've read or heard in recent years that says anything about their faith.  They just say they weren't living the expected Christian stereotypes nor did they care one way or another about being labeled as such.  They believe what they believe, and maybe it changes, and it's in the lyrics but they don't feel the need to spell it out.  They don't want to come out and say what they believe or don't believe in interviews, because they believe it's irrelevant to the music. 

Which is a perfectly acceptable stance, IMO.  Especially after being subjected over decades to the constant barrage of judgment, legalism, and religious perfectionism as evidenced by Temple of Blood in this thread.  Nobody in their right mind wants anything to do with a subculture that seeks that level of control over one's life and creativity.  Which is why so many Christian bands have fallen away or don't want to identify with it anymore.  It's just exhausting.

Also, I believe I may have said this in years past but someone could easily argue that Temple of Blood isn't a Christian band either.  Because the essence of the gospel is Grace and Love, and your attitude over the years indicates you are generally opposed to such ideas.  Temple of Blood could be more accurately labeled as "Pharisee metal." 

I'm not saying this IS the case, because I don't care to judge, but I'm just trying to play devil's advocate and point out that "correct faith" is a matter of perspective.  We can all easily judge one another into hell for any number of nuances.

Just for kicks, here’s my favorite Believer tune:

strangerhoncho wrote:Also, I believe I may have said this in years past but someone could easily argue that Temple of Blood isn't a Christian band either.  Because the essence of the gospel is Grace and Love, and your attitude over the years indicates you are generally opposed to such ideas.  Temple of Blood could be more accurately labeled as "Pharisee metal." 

I'm not saying this IS the case, because I don't care to judge, but I'm just trying to play devil's advocate and point out that "correct faith" is a matter of perspective.  We can all easily judge one another into hell for any number of nuances.

"Temple of Blood could be more accurately labeled as "Pharisee metal." "


Yep. well said.... read what I wrote earlier.

Apologies to all for the delay... this thread is now locked.