Believer have stopped being a Christian band

For this reason, I don't think any new music they might manage to release should be discussed in this forum.

I personally can't stand this band.

They're my pick for the #1 most overrated "Christian" metal band of all-time.

Temple of Blood wrote:Beer - Believer (believerband.com)

For this reason, I don't think any new music they might manage to release should be discussed in this forum.

I personally can't stand this band.

They're my pick for the #1 most overrated "Christian" metal band of all-time.

TBH, they aren't christian band since 'Gabriel' release (or earlier)

And make a beer isn't the real problem. Get drunk, yes... this is the problem

LexMetalis wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:Beer - Believer (believerband.com)

For this reason, I don't think any new music they might manage to release should be discussed in this forum.

I personally can't stand this band.

They're my pick for the #1 most overrated "Christian" metal band of all-time.

TBH, they aren't christian band since 'Gabriel' release (or earlier)

And make a beer isn't the real problem. Get drunk, yes... this is the problem

Well put! I'm not even sure of Gabriel.

mothy wrote:

LexMetalis wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:Beer - Believer (believerband.com)

For this reason, I don't think any new music they might manage to release should be discussed in this forum.

I personally can't stand this band.

They're my pick for the #1 most overrated "Christian" metal band of all-time.

TBH, they aren't christian band since 'Gabriel' release (or earlier)

And make a beer isn't the real problem. Get drunk, yes... this is the problem

Well put! I'm not even sure of Gabriel.

In an interview to the major brazilian metal mag ( a "secular one") back in 2009 they had said:

After all, is Believer a Christian band or not?
Jeff: What do you think? (N.R.: I answer that I prefer not to comment).
Kurt: We never wanted or looked for that kind of label. I think we were a unique band back then, maybe if Metallica had written more lyrics like Creeping Death they would have been labeled as us too. It was the biblical and philosophical references in our lyrics that brought this idea. Also, metal and religion were walking together back then, if you think about it. There were a lot of Black Metal bands and even the ones that weren't Satanic wrote about Satanism. It wasn't like the Black Metal of today. You had Venom and Mercyful Fate, less dark bands. We came across the idea from a completely different angle than what was happening at the time. It's the kind of thing you do but others label. Honestly, I don't think it ever hurt us.
Joey: We don't or have lived the kind of life that a Christian band leads. Our beliefs are personal and...
Kurt: We drink a lot... (laughs)
Jeff: When you're labeled as a Christian band, there's a lot of expectation about your actions and your image.
Kurt: Being in a Christian band doesn't mean you as an individual are a Christian. It's a kind of social life that we don't fit into.


So Believer has nothing to do with what Stryper, Mortification and other bands like that do, right?
Kurt: We don't follow a recipe. We just sing about things we're living.
Jeff: Music is entertainment and you can talk about good things if you want.
Joey: When we go on stage we don't preach religion or politics, we don't preach anything. It is worth saying that a band with Christian members is different from a Christian band. I see Trouble, Kings X, U2, Creed or Evanescence, for example. Understand that I don't see anything bad about a band following and writing about what they believe in.
Kurt: I don't care about that. There are Muslim bands, Christian bands, that's okay. Some bands like Rage Against The Machine follow an ideology. In their case, it's politics, but within Believer it's more about the music, really.

Soon the Believer would be more philosophy-oriented than religious.
Joey: Believer has always prided itself on creating things that make people think, whether it's musically, lyrically or artistically. Use the brain that was designed for you and reason, find an answer.

So, why the name Believer (N.R.: one who trusts, who has faith in the truth)?
Joey: The truth is it came from the song Believer by Ozzy Osbourne.
Kurt: If you were to judge a band by name alone, Lamb Of God (N.R.: lamb of God) would be a big name in Christian music (laughs).


Before they were called Burn The Priest...
Kurt: True, but before we were called Believer the name was Deceiver (N.R.: one who deceives, deceit).

LexMetalis wrote:

mothy wrote:

LexMetalis wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:Beer - Believer (believerband.com)

For this reason, I don't think any new music they might manage to release should be discussed in this forum.

I personally can't stand this band.

They're my pick for the #1 most overrated "Christian" metal band of all-time.

TBH, they aren't christian band since 'Gabriel' release (or earlier)

And make a beer isn't the real problem. Get drunk, yes... this is the problem

Well put! I'm not even sure of Gabriel.

In an interview to the major brazilian metal mag ( a "secular one") back in 2009 they had said:

After all, is Believer a Christian band or not?
Jeff: What do you think? (N.R.: I answer that I prefer not to comment).
Kurt: We never wanted or looked for that kind of label. I think we were a unique band back then, maybe if Metallica had written more lyrics like Creeping Death they would have been labeled as us too. It was the biblical and philosophical references in our lyrics that brought this idea. Also, metal and religion were walking together back then, if you think about it. There were a lot of Black Metal bands and even the ones that weren't Satanic wrote about Satanism. It wasn't like the Black Metal of today. You had Venom and Mercyful Fate, less dark bands. We came across the idea from a completely different angle than what was happening at the time. It's the kind of thing you do but others label. Honestly, I don't think it ever hurt us.
Joey: We don't or have lived the kind of life that a Christian band leads. Our beliefs are personal and...
Kurt: We drink a lot... (laughs)
Jeff: When you're labeled as a Christian band, there's a lot of expectation about your actions and your image.
Kurt: Being in a Christian band doesn't mean you as an individual are a Christian. It's a kind of social life that we don't fit into.


So Believer has nothing to do with what Stryper, Mortification and other bands like that do, right?
Kurt: We don't follow a recipe. We just sing about things we're living.
Jeff: Music is entertainment and you can talk about good things if you want.
Joey: When we go on stage we don't preach religion or politics, we don't preach anything. It is worth saying that a band with Christian members is different from a Christian band. I see Trouble, Kings X, U2, Creed or Evanescence, for example. Understand that I don't see anything bad about a band following and writing about what they believe in.
Kurt: I don't care about that. There are Muslim bands, Christian bands, that's okay. Some bands like Rage Against The Machine follow an ideology. In their case, it's politics, but within Believer it's more about the music, really.

Soon the Believer would be more philosophy-oriented than religious.
Joey: Believer has always prided itself on creating things that make people think, whether it's musically, lyrically or artistically. Use the brain that was designed for you and reason, find an answer.

So, why the name Believer (N.R.: one who trusts, who has faith in the truth)?
Joey: The truth is it came from the song Believer by Ozzy Osbourne.
Kurt: If you were to judge a band by name alone, Lamb Of God (N.R.: lamb of God) would be a big name in Christian music (laughs).


Before they were called Burn The Priest...
Kurt: True, but before we were called Believer the name was Deceiver (N.R.: one who deceives, deceit).

Sigh…

That interview is pathetic, idiotic, cowardly, and their music sucks.

First, they are lying, they interviewed about being a Christian band back in the day. Second, if making beer is causing others to sin, Jesus is in trouble. Let's not be more pious than Jesus here.

Temple of Blood wrote:That interview is pathetic, idiotic, cowardly, and their music sucks.

So tell me about the times you've ever been idiotic or cowardly.

Remove the beam from your own eye son.

You'd make a great Jehovah's Witness.

jaydeecrawson wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:That interview is pathetic, idiotic, cowardly, and their music sucks.

So tell me about the times you've ever been idiotic or cowardly.

Remove the beam from your own eye son.

You'd make a great Jehovah's Witness.

Are you even a Christian?

Im going to remove my commentary about supposed christians selling alcohol.  That wasnt even really my main point.

Bands too ashamed to stand for Christ should stop getting so much praise and promotion in the Christian scene.  They should be blacklisted and prayed for.

Enabling bands like this is a cancer to the Christian scene.

Temple of Blood wrote:Im going to remove my commentary about supposed christians selling alcohol.  That wasnt even really my main point.

Bands too ashamed to stand for Christ should stop getting so much praise and promotion in the Christian scene.  They should be blacklisted and prayed for.

Enabling bands like this is a cancer to the Christian scene.

 
So which bands would you censor? The ones that you personally disagree with doctrinally or ones that have a moral issue you don't agree with? 

Or ones that use a different translation of the Bible than you? Or ones that don't line up with your particular eschatological, ecclesiological, or soteriological views?

Every band is made up of flawed human beings just like me and you.

There is no such thing as perfect people. Just about every so called "Christian Band" has had a song or two that ruffled feathers or caused some controversy.... 

Living Sacrifice even thanked Kenneth Copeland in their earlier albums. Are you gonna cancel them?

Bob Beeman even suggested praying in tongues while mastur*****g. You gonna cancel him?

As I lay Dying.... cancel them?

Saviour Machine... because some of their members smoke?

You gonna cancel anything Jayson Sherlock plays on because he listens to Satyricon?

Just about every single band I can think of has divorced members too. You gonna ban them all?

No band EVER can probably be perfect enough for you then.

Under the microscope, even you probably have some dirty laundry in your life that you're not too proud of and that you pray, fast or mortify yourself over.

Keep reading your John Calvin and Jonathan Edwards... or better yet: go find some Jehovah's Witnesses to talk to and see what happens.

If your views are so true, then I'm sure they'll accept them. Or are you too cowardly to?

You're very confused.

Are you a follower of Jesus Christ or not?

What you mad about? Shouldn't you, as a christian, feel more sad about that... is it no wonder people look at the church from afar and go- man, they are just angry, mean, hypocritical and self righteous idiots- think about it.  However, I did see a youtube video with them in an interview and thought to myself- well, I think I might be more christian than them lol. Not that I could care less, I just like their music and they are part of the christian metal legacy and story, just like our good friend- Roger.

Believer made a comeback in a time when the "new atheism" was on the rise, and gave interviews and continued writing songs in a time when new atheism was on its peak. There was a time when it seemed like everyone after reading Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion became an atheist or at the very least an agnostic or a deist.

It was very popular for Christians to tone down with their preaching and even sharing their faith because of this sudden trend of "personal belief" type of thinking. Even churches started to become places where the priests weren't comfortable with preaching about sin and the gospel without self-censorship. And if they did, they might get lots of bad press about it.

Many bands and ordinary people started to talk around the subject and weren't comfortable with saying what they really believe. There were probably two reasons for that: they don't want to anger their old friends and peers by saying they don't believe in anything anymore, or they don't want to look like a fool by telling they believe in something specific. For a decade or two it really was considered as foolishness and rude to claim you have faith in something specific, so everyone went around that and said they believe in something and that it's their own personal thing. That was accepted.

As long as you didn't mention Jesus in any other way than just a wise man, you were fine. You weren't looked as a fool and for bands, people would still buy your records if you knew how to construct your words carefully. Telling directly you were an atheist there was the danger of making you lose your old fans, and telling directly you were a Christian there was a danger of losing any potential support from newer audience. That's why bands started to tip-toe around the subject so much. And in that sense, yeah ToB is right about them being cowardly. I personally don't have an issue with them becoming atheists or whatever. It just bugs me that there's so much tip-toeing around the subject. People can be honest and straightforward about any other belief they have, but belief in a religion suddenly is a thing you can't be honest and straightforward about.

Ironically though, while former Christian artists started to tip-toe around the subject and maybe even publicly say they weren't Christians anymore, we started to see surprisingly many mainstream metal artists becoming either Christians or believers in God as opposed to them being atheists before. Blackie Lawless, Dave Mustaine, Nicko McBrain, Pete Sandoval, Brian "Head" Welch... Even Rob Halford openly told he's a believer when he talked about Michael Sweet regarding to the subject of Stryper making a Judas Priest cover. Sure, he didn't specifically say he's a Christian but told he believes in God (he recorded a few religious Christmas songs too). Alice Cooper had been a Christian already for quite a while but he became very open about it around that time too.

One good example of the nuances and dynamics of sharing your faith and how it has changed in a band is Helloween. I think Michael Weikath, Andi Deris and Michael Kiske have all in the past been quite open about their Christian beliefs. Weikath later even admitted that the idea of Helloween was sort of to be like Stryper but not that straight and preachy about it. Kinda to share the message but super vaguely. But later on after the rise of the new atheism at least Michael Weikath and Andi Deris have both said they don't quite know what to believe in anymore. They aren't atheists but they seem to follow some sort of a deistic faith, and are more open to some gnostic beliefs than in any sort of orthodox Christianity. I don't know what their current beliefs are but around 2008-2010 or so that was what they said.

In the Christian metal scene the two biggest names who have been open about them losing their faith have been Roger Martinez and Gary Lenaire. Brian Khairullah from Deliverance has been open about that too. As we now know, Gary Lenaire has come back to faith a year or two ago, which we probably all deep down didn't think was ever going to happen. After all, he had even written a whole book about the reasons he didn't believe anymore. But here we are in 2022, he made a good old "white metal" album and has been very open about his faith in Christ again.

Maybe that's the first sign of things taking a turn again. We have just started to see the signs of a major turn in social issues too, as people seem to be starting to see through the "woke" ideals that have been tried to force through our brains for the past 10 years or so. So maybe the age of tip-toeing around the subjects, were they religious or social, has started to fade away now. Maybe the rise of gnosticism, new ageism and new atheism is fading. Maybe the need for people to tip-toe around religious subject matters is coming to an end too.

I'd like to hear the people of bands like Seventh Angel or Believer to just tell it like it is, warts and all. If you don't believe, say it. If you believe, say it. Anything else will sound dishonest. I love Believer, but it really doesn't strike me as honest to downplay their earlier lyrics as not really being about them being Christians but just being merely reference of Biblical subjects.

Now, what comes to them brewing beer, I don't understand what's the issue with that. A lot of beer in history were made by monks. If you haven't heard about Trappist beer, google it. I don't think making beer is any sign of anyone being non-christian.

And I'm still waiting for the rest of their new album that was supposed to be released in 2017. They've released 6 songs from it and four are yet to be released. I didn't really enjoy those 6 songs much but I'm interested in hearing the rest. Gabriel was great. It was better than Dimensions and might be even better than Sanity Obscure too, or at least it's on par with it. Transhuman had a few great tracks but mostly was pretty disappointing. The newest songs from the "upcoming" album have all been pretty meh. But I still love Believer and like most of what they've done, no matter what their beliefs are.

The historical revision is ridiculous. Just come out and say, “Yeah, we used to believe in Christ, but we don’t anymore.” I’ll mourn their apostasy, but I’ll at least respect their truthfulness to their own beliefs.

Take away the Christianity aspect of early Believer, and their music is just not special.  Not awful, but just not exceptional in the sea of thousands of thrash bands.  Tourniquet have always been ten times the band they are, musically and now spiritually as well.  If Believer had been on Intense Records and not Roadrunner Records, they would've never gotten much secular praise IMHO.  "The New Breed"
promo campaign from Roadrunner in the 90s really helped elevate their status far beyond what they deserved IMHO.  They actually compared them to Cynic in terms of quality, which is just laughable.  It's like comparing Chumbawumba to Led Zeppelin.

Airola wrote:Believer made a comeback in a time when the "new atheism" was on the rise, and gave interviews and continued writing songs in a time when new atheism was on its peak. There was a time when it seemed like everyone after reading Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion became an atheist or at the very least an agnostic or a deist.

It was very popular for Christians to tone down with their preaching and even sharing their faith because of this sudden trend of "personal belief" type of thinking. Even churches started to become places where the priests weren't comfortable with preaching about sin and the gospel without self-censorship. And if they did, they might get lots of bad press about it.

Many bands and ordinary people started to talk around the subject and weren't comfortable with saying what they really believe. There were probably two reasons for that: they don't want to anger their old friends and peers by saying they don't believe in anything anymore, or they don't want to look like a fool by telling they believe in something specific. For a decade or two it really was considered as foolishness and rude to claim you have faith in something specific, so everyone went around that and said they believe in something and that it's their own personal thing. That was accepted.

As long as you didn't mention Jesus in any other way than just a wise man, you were fine. You weren't looked as a fool and for bands, people would still buy your records if you knew how to construct your words carefully. Telling directly you were an atheist there was the danger of making you lose your old fans, and telling directly you were a Christian there was a danger of losing any potential support from newer audience. That's why bands started to tip-toe around the subject so much. And in that sense, yeah ToB is right about them being cowardly. I personally don't have an issue with them becoming atheists or whatever. It just bugs me that there's so much tip-toeing around the subject. People can be honest and straightforward about any other belief they have, but belief in a religion suddenly is a thing you can't be honest and straightforward about.

Ironically though, while former Christian artists started to tip-toe around the subject and maybe even publicly say they weren't Christians anymore, we started to see surprisingly many mainstream metal artists becoming either Christians or believers in God as opposed to them being atheists before. Blackie Lawless, Dave Mustaine, Nicko McBrain, Pete Sandoval, Brian "Head" Welch... Even Rob Halford openly told he's a believer when he talked about Michael Sweet regarding to the subject of Stryper making a Judas Priest cover. Sure, he didn't specifically say he's a Christian but told he believes in God (he recorded a few religious Christmas songs too). Alice Cooper had been a Christian already for quite a while but he became very open about it around that time too.

One good example of the nuances and dynamics of sharing your faith and how it has changed in a band is Helloween. I think Michael Weikath, Andi Deris and Michael Kiske have all in the past been quite open about their Christian beliefs. Weikath later even admitted that the idea of Helloween was sort of to be like Stryper but not that straight and preachy about it. Kinda to share the message but super vaguely. But later on after the rise of the new atheism at least Michael Weikath and Andi Deris have both said they don't quite know what to believe in anymore. They aren't atheists but they seem to follow some sort of a deistic faith, and are more open to some gnostic beliefs than in any sort of orthodox Christianity. I don't know what their current beliefs are but around 2008-2010 or so that was what they said.

In the Christian metal scene the two biggest names who have been open about them losing their faith have been Roger Martinez and Gary Lenaire. Brian Khairullah from Deliverance has been open about that too. As we now know, Gary Lenaire has come back to faith a year or two ago, which we probably all deep down didn't think was ever going to happen. After all, he had even written a whole book about the reasons he didn't believe anymore. But here we are in 2022, he made a good old "white metal" album and has been very open about his faith in Christ again.

Maybe that's the first sign of things taking a turn again. We have just started to see the signs of a major turn in social issues too, as people seem to be starting to see through the "woke" ideals that have been tried to force through our brains for the past 10 years or so. So maybe the age of tip-toeing around the subjects, were they religious or social, has started to fade away now. Maybe the rise of gnosticism, new ageism and new atheism is fading. Maybe the need for people to tip-toe around religious subject matters is coming to an end too.

I'd like to hear the people of bands like Seventh Angel or Believer to just tell it like it is, warts and all. If you don't believe, say it. If you believe, say it. Anything else will sound dishonest. I love Believer, but it really doesn't strike me as honest to downplay their earlier lyrics as not really being about them being Christians but just being merely reference of Biblical subjects.

Now, what comes to them brewing beer, I don't understand what's the issue with that. A lot of beer in history were made by monks. If you haven't heard about Trappist beer, google it. I don't think making beer is any sign of anyone being non-christian.

And I'm still waiting for the rest of their new album that was supposed to be released in 2017. They've released 6 songs from it and four are yet to be released. I didn't really enjoy those 6 songs much but I'm interested in hearing the rest. Gabriel was great. It was better than Dimensions and might be even better than Sanity Obscure too, or at least it's on par with it. Transhuman had a few great tracks but mostly was pretty disappointing. The newest songs from the "upcoming" album have all been pretty meh. But I still love Believer and like most of what they've done, no matter what their beliefs are.

Well said! 
You’ve been paying attention. 

But I disagree with Gabriel being better (or on par) with Sanity Obscure. Hands down, my favorite will always be Extraction From Mortality. But Sanity was a nice follow up (and very heavy).

Maybe it’s just me… but I think Joey is still a believer (no pun intended). I sense Kurt Bachman has the defensive hostility or “chip on the shoulder” towards the interview questions about their stance in Christianity. Joey seems to play the role of the “sidekick” that doesn’t speak out of line with the main guy. Kinda similar to what Dave Ellefson or Jason Newsted would present themselves in the media (when they were in their former bands).

MOD ANNOUNCEMENT: I split this thread.  Please continue discussion of alcohol and debated sinfulness here:
https://thecmr.forumotion.com/t13214-alcohol-and-the-christian

I do think the Christian Metal section should be reserved for bands that both profess the faith and present at least a basic Biblical worldview in their lyrics.   If for no other reason, one doesn't want to promote albums as being Christian-themed to new or non-believers if they are not.

The details of what makes a band "Christian" may look different to different people, but there should be a basic list of essentials we can all agree on.  Perhaps a basic list is in order, as a guide?

Yes bands like Believer and Seventh Angel are part of Christian metal history and that makes it tricky to know where to place them for discussion purposes.  I don't have a good answer that would satisfy everyone but I do think it warrants further discussion.

To me, it's not complicated.

Discuss their old albums/shows/activities in this forum.

Discuss whatever they've done since their apostasy in the secular forum.

Same for Seventh Angel.

How ironic that you can find more Christianity in Megadeth and Testament's lyrics nowadays than "Believer"'s.  Being an 80s thrash metal kid, I never would've thought this would happen.

It's what I've said before, there are only a handful of Christian bands I would listen to even if they didn't have Christian lyrics. For example, I'd still be jamming some Tourniquet even if they sang songs about eating donuts and watching Star Trek. But for many other bands, I'd rather just crank up some classic Anthrax or Annihilator if the lyrics aren't edifying.

I frankly think there are a ton of great Christian metal releases but the old guard and the Sanctuary crowd is pretty overrated.

Temple of Blood wrote:I frankly think there are a ton of great Christian metal releases but the old guard and the Sanctuary crowd is pretty overrated.

Oh, I agree. I've discovered some killer thrash in recent years. (Mosh-Pit Justice comes to mind). My main point was that I want edification in my Christian lyrics. There are so many more secular bands that there's bound to be a ton more quality releases in that field musically. That in no way means that Christian bands can't equal that quality, but it's just a question of saturation and availability.

Temple of Blood wrote:To me, it's not complicated.

Discuss their old albums/shows/activities in this forum.

Discuss whatever they've done since their apostasy in the secular forum.

Complicated indeed...  What constitutes a "Christian band" is probably the single most argued-about topic on here as well - which doesn't help clarify.  I try to be pretty lenient about that stuff and only move threads if it's especially obvious.