Has Christian Metal Really Come To This????

Grindboy wrote:Every individual, band, and story is unique.  That said, I think here's a common pattern:

Young, energetic, enthusiastic, faith-filled, and possibly naive or spiritually immature people start a band because they love Jesus and music.  The whole thing is super romantic and inspiring -- God will use us and our talent/love for music to do amazing things and change lives, we'll have a blast and God will be glorified, this will be awesome!  They work hard, hone their craft, all their friends and the local scene tell them they're awesome, and eventually they manage to get noticed enough to have a Facedown/SS/whatever label put out a record.  Wow, God's really in this, look at the platform that he's granting us!  We'll shout proudly of our Lord, not be ashamed, and just watch God work!  Their lyrics and interviews are clear, and they get on a couple tours with mainstream bands and they're off on their first real missions trip.  They speak boldly but kindly, making to always be clear they're "not trying to cram anything down anybody's throat."  Night after night they pour our their hearts, but somehow it doesn't go like they thought.  Basically, nobody cares.  Some applaud, some heckle or walk out, but it just never quite turns out like they thought.  Along with this, they find themselves, often for the first time, in a world where almost nobody else shares their beliefs and many think it's outright stupid.  The power of environment can really be overpowering -- and they start to find questions that they can't quite answer, both direct challenges to their faith and things they see in the world (and in their attempted ministry!) that are really difficult.  So many people say their beliefs are really hateful or intolerant, and as much as they try to explain how that's not right, eventually it all gets very, very wearing.  Really, the [drummer/bass player/lead guitar/whatever] wasn't that serious about Jesus in the first place, he just wanted to play in a band and went along with it, but now he's really been pulled away by the anti-Christian environment.  And why didn't God use us to do great things, like it seemed so obvious was the greater plan?  And the world just looks a lot different when you're 27 than when you're 22.  Maybe we were wrong about the whole thing. . . .  So by the third record, it's "You know, some of us are Christians and some aren't, and we're just people in a band and our songs are about things in our lives and the world and we really wish we'd never taken that 'Christian band' label, now Christians hate us because they don't think we're Christians and everybody else hates us because they think we're trying to be better than them, and we just want to make music."

None of this is justification or condemnation, but just explanation, and I think is a generally common pattern, at least some of the elements present in innumerable stories.  It's hard to do ministry, particularly outside of Christian circles, even more if you're young, and again even more if you tend toward being emotionally driven, which is common for musicians.

Just my thoughts!

Sounds about right, much like what everyone goes through, change and a turbulent life

Its hard to find the support and its that way for everyone, not just bands

MetalMusicforJesus99 wrote:

Warzawa wrote:

..but I don't understand why Christian metal artists feel the need to shock anyone with LYRICS.

For some reason Stryper came to mind when i read this , anyways....

I think you are going to find the quality bands now a days in the Indie scene or through small labels, to me a Christian band dropping the F-Bomb on an album is not a Christian band or artist at all, Not saying they are not a Christian because that would be ridiculous since we all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. I know i wouldnt feel refreshed spiritually if i was listening to a Christian band and  they started dropping Profanity into their lyrics. Regardless if the band's purpose is ministry or entertainment there's no place for it.

Music in general is changing, good or bad as well as "American Christianity"

I apologize if this makes no sense, just a thought I had and wanted to share

Congrats! Everything you said makes sense to me!

I think Stryper has been targeted by many because they've been involved in controversy more then once.  I think it just shows me that they are either a little immature, or they don't examine the ramifications good enough before trying something new.  But that is all I got to say about Stryper.  My only concern for Stryper is that they stick with Jesus for salvation and don't become too side tracked.  Other then that, I don't usually listen to them.

Every now and then I come across a Band from another Country I like, and once I hear the lyrics, I'm reminded of how things used to be here in America!

The thing that bugs me the most, and I think it bugs all of you too, is how so many Bands think it's ok to start out as "Christian" and then all of a sudden just stop being that.  It seems really weird too me.  Indie bands have the same problem, because they actually have the total freedom to be as wishy-washy as they want.  It's good to have that freedom if your a responsible person.

WOOHOOOO!!!!! one small victory for me hehe

I could say alot about Stryper but the short skinny is I don't listen to them anymore for more than just music reasons and I haven't looked back. They were a pioneer and I respect that

Hardcore Christian wrote:Most Facedown Records bands seem to have closer ties to being much more gospel oriented generally than Solid State and Tooth and Nail, and that's probably because of the above reasons

Disclaimer, I prefer to be completely accurate.  However everything that I'm sharing here is from my own memory.  Many of my memories are several years old now, and some even farther back.  Since I can't guarantee complete accuracy.  I ask that you take what I say in the following paragraph with a grain of salt, and do your own research, if you so desire.  I wanted to post links but I feel uneasy about it.  So much of what is in the podcasts, I listened too, to get this information, has lots of swearing and often uses God's name in vain.  There was even a podcast by the guys who are in the Band Emery, named "It May Be a Sin Not to Cuss"  The whole thing starts off with lots of swearing, and they never one time quoted any scripture!

From the time I first started getting into Tooth and Nail bands, I was scratching my head but I couldn't put my finger on it.  Many years later I got the internet.  In recent years I heard two podcasts.  One was talking to Brandon Ebel and He said that Tooth and Nail wasn't completely Christian.  He wanted to sign bands that often had a message but not every member was a professing Christian.  His rule was that lead singer had to be a Christian.  In another podcast, they were talking with the former drummer to Haste The Day.  He said that when Jimmy Ryan first started with the band He spoke boldly about the Lord.  But when Brandon heard the Live recording, He told them that Jimmy had to tone it down because of the kind of audience they would be playing for.  Yet they still wanted to be on Solid State Records.  I remember reading yet another article where Brandon said that they don't tell the bands to take Jesus out of the Lyrics and yet most bands I got from that label never mention Jesus in the entire album!.  All this kind of stuff around Tooth and Nail has always caused me to scratch my head.  Things got even more interesting when I heard, yet on another Podcast where Podcast Host, thought highly of Tooth and Nail, but after the interview, you could tell He was a little bummed out by some of the things He was hearing.  I'm not trying to slander Tooth and Nail but I can't help but speak the truth as far as what I've been hearing.  And it's been coming out the mouths of the very people who are creating and producing the music.

Grindboy wrote:Every individual, band, and story is unique.  That said, I think here's a common pattern:

Young, energetic, enthusiastic, faith-filled, and possibly naive or spiritually immature people start a band because they love Jesus and music.  The whole thing is super romantic and inspiring -- God will use us and our talent/love for music to do amazing things and change lives, we'll have a blast and God will be glorified, this will be awesome!  They work hard, hone their craft, all their friends and the local scene tell them they're awesome, and eventually they manage to get noticed enough to have a Facedown/SS/whatever label put out a record.  Wow, God's really in this, look at the platform that he's granting us!  We'll shout proudly of our Lord, not be ashamed, and just watch God work!  Their lyrics and interviews are clear, and they get on a couple tours with mainstream bands and they're off on their first real missions trip.  They speak boldly but kindly, making to always be clear they're "not trying to cram anything down anybody's throat."  Night after night they pour our their hearts, but somehow it doesn't go like they thought.  Basically, nobody cares.  Some applaud, some heckle or walk out, but it just never quite turns out like they thought.  Along with this, they find themselves, often for the first time, in a world where almost nobody else shares their beliefs and many think it's outright stupid.  The power of environment can really be overpowering -- and they start to find questions that they can't quite answer, both direct challenges to their faith and things they see in the world (and in their attempted ministry!) that are really difficult.  So many people say their beliefs are really hateful or intolerant, and as much as they try to explain how that's not right, eventually it all gets very, very wearing.  Really, the [drummer/bass player/lead guitar/whatever] wasn't that serious about Jesus in the first place, he just wanted to play in a band and went along with it, but now he's really been pulled away by the anti-Christian environment.  And why didn't God use us to do great things, like it seemed so obvious was the greater plan?  And the world just looks a lot different when you're 27 than when you're 22.  Maybe we were wrong about the whole thing. . . .  So by the third record, it's "You know, some of us are Christians and some aren't, and we're just people in a band and our songs are about things in our lives and the world and we really wish we'd never taken that 'Christian band' label, now Christians hate us because they don't think we're Christians and everybody else hates us because they think we're trying to be better than them, and we just want to make music."

None of this is justification or condemnation, but just explanation, and I think is a generally common pattern, at least some of the elements present in innumerable stories.  It's hard to do ministry, particularly outside of Christian circles, even more if you're young, and again even more if you tend toward being emotionally driven, which is common for musicians.

Just my thoughts!

I just got done watching a Documentary called:  "The Real Roots of The Emergent Church". It's 3 hours long, and I think what it describes is what could be the real root cause of why so many are going weird.  I remember hearing an interview with one of the guys from 90lb wuss.  He used to be apart of one of the churches mentioned in the documentary.  I remember Him saying, I heard the pastor say "F" something, and I'm like "That's my pastor!"  Like that was a good thing that the Pastor was using the F word.  The Emergent Church is a really bad movement.

This is an excellent thread.

It does seem like the most watered-down Christian metal bands (lyrically and musically) go the furthest.

MetalMusicforJesus99 wrote:
I'm not saying anything you don't already know.  But I'm going to say it because, maybe you need to hear it.  You can't change people's hearts and minds.  Only God can do that.  What you got to do is talk to Jesus about it.  Ask Him to heal those burnt bridges.  Help you to emotionally make peace with some of those past things.  Remember Jesus forgives us.  We need that forgiveness and grace to keep moving forward.

BTW I've been listening to those two Albums I bought from you.  I'm enjoying them.  Take Care. 

Glad you like them bro!  ....and yes, I think I just needed to hear someone say that.  I think all music has their critics in 1 form or another, and perhaps it might be human nature to ignore the good feedback for just a minute to try to convince a critic to change their opinion....  but bottom line, I feel blessed to do what I do, and work with the people I work with and to have receive the compliments I have...  that being said though, its more accurate to say I'm more of an instrument for God than big-bad-awesome me really doing this all myself with no outside help whatsoever.  
XD

Side note - I stumbled upon a review of one of my albums on a secular metal website.  Lots of bashing - Christians shouldn't be doing this, another churchy TRYING to do black metal, black metal isn't theirs, etc. (I'm paraphrasing, those weren't the exact quotes)  ....but...  they didn't bash the music.    I figured one troll would have said it just sounds like someone continuously falling on a Fisher Price tape deck in the woods, but I think if the secular black metal scene has a good grasp on anything....  is the intent of "minimalist production" to increase the musical presence of black metal.

Constantine wrote:
I'd rather these bands have the "Christian" tag removed so that we can all make decisions based on knowledge instead of wishful thinking.

I think where the waters get muddied most is in the marketing/promotion.

I'll give you an example - Flukt has a new album (coming soon if its not out now).  Very well done black metal from what I've heard of it so far.  They've said they're Christians, but their lyrics are not "theological".  (another case of Christians in a band being different than a Christian band, which is fine in my book - I totally get that)

...but then Christian stores carry their albums, and their releases are announced on Christian forums, and the band will announce in Christian online circles.  Again, I totally understand that - that's not wrong by any means - but it indirectly creates a false premise, when the lyrics aren't "theological", the art itself isn't technically "Christian".  (what's getting the Christian title is the band member's personal faith)

Customers/fans equate announced in Christian circles, bought in Christian stores, etc = its a Christian band.
The band, especially being Christians, are just trying to broaden their audience.
I totally relate to trying to reach more listeners. I'm in the same boat!

Talk about a rock and a hard place.
Like you said Constantine, I think its more accurate to just never introduce the Christian title if the lyrics aren't Christian themed...  but then many Christians may avoid or never even hear of them because of the personal conviction many Christians have in regards to listening to secular metal.

Kind of like MXPX. Outside of the first album, I dont see anything explicitly Christian about them, aside from the fact that the band members are Christian, but they were on Tooth and Nail and made the Christian charts. Good band and most of their lyrics are clean from what I've seen, but definitely another instance of "Christians in a band". It would be like if Johnny Cash's albums (not his Gospel albums, but his regular work) was marketed to the Christian market (somehow I cant see K-Love playing stuff like Folson Prison Blues or his cover of Delia's Gone).

ThomasEversole wrote:
Talk about a rock and a hard place.
Like you said Constantine, I think its more accurate to just never introduce the Christian title if the lyrics aren't Christian themed...  but then many Christians may avoid or never even hear of them because of the personal conviction many Christians have in regards to listening to secular metal.

Yes, you brought up a great example.  I checked out Flukt's music.  I like their sound, although the riffing and song structures are a bit too simple for me to really enjoy.  Read an interview with them as well, and all they say about the matter is "We are Christians."  I've no reason to doubt them but that in itself can mean anything these days SO....I personally would not market this band to gospel-oriented music consumers, many of whom may have a personal conviction about metal that's not explicitly Christian.  But like you said, a band like this could be acceptable enough to someone like me who is not as particular about hardcore lyrical content.   At best we can call it "white metal."  It's in that grey, in-between area between secular and Christian.

I encounter a fair number of bands like that.  They are hard to read.   I  create publicly accessible playlists on Spotify and You Tube.   So for example, I would not put Flukt in a playlist that specifically said "Christian [blank] Metal."   Because that might mislead some people.  However I WOULD put it in a playlist that read "Unblack Metal."

Another interesting conundrum I run into are bands that are marketed as Christian but that have some songs that are sort of Christian and others that are either neutral, or questionable at best.  Some of their songs will even be marked as "Explicit" on Spotify.  Some good examples would be Angel Of Sodom, Imperial Dusk, Biogenesis, Morgarten, Four Star Revival, Nomad Son, Dark Sky, Azorrague, Mad Max, Essence of Sorrow, Shining Star, and others.  In this situation I will look at each band on a case by case basis and try to get an overall framework of the band and their lyrics.  If the general oeuvre of the band is white metal, I will put the explicitly Christian songs in a public Christian playlist.  However if it is a secular band like Hades (the thrash band from NJ), I will not put their songs "Widow's Mite (Chapter 11)" or "The Cross" into a Christian music playlist.  Great songs, and others do it differently, but that's how I approach things.

That's why this type of situation with these bands makes life complicated!    Obviously it is super-easy to discern the gospel intentions of bands like Bloodgood, Jerusalem, Narnia, Grave Declaration, Mortification, Xiii Minutes, Hilastherion, Ancient Prophecy, Saint, Ritual Servant, All For The King, Leviticus, Sacrament, and others.   But when it's nebulous as to where the band is coming from, it makes things more challenging.....Cheers.

For the music player on my phone and how I have music categorized/tagged, I stayed away from extra/lyrical adjectives as much as possible.  I mean, whether its Skald in Veum, 1349, Orationem, The Great Old Ones, Crimson Moonlight, Marduk - all are labeled as "Black Metal" on my device.

I'd feel like if I had a band as "Christian [music genre]" then I'd have to put other "lyric descriptors" for other entries for the sake of consistency.  Satanic [music genre], anti-Christian [music genre], violent [music genre], about death [music genre], about nature [music genre], about space [music genre], etc.

I could split the Christian entry even more than just "Christian lyrics" and "Christian members".  Some bands come across as more anti-anti-Christian than they do Christian so....  Man, what a cluster.

Temple of Blood wrote:This is an excellent thread.

It does seem like the most watered-down Christian metal bands (lyrically and musically) go the furthest.

@Hardcore Christian
The band that really got me into metal was Tourniquet.  I have always been very impressed by the music workmanship combined by lyrical content.  With that being said, they are also the band that caused me the most pain.  It all started when I was messing around with myspace.  The former guitar player added me as a friend.  He wanted to promote his book about why He left both Tourniquet and Christianity.  At the time it put a hard lump in my throat.  The best advice anyone gave me: every time you listen to tourniquet pray for Gary. I don't know about anyone on this website, but I have problems praying for people that I don't know personally.  Whenever I try praying for people I don't know, I feel like I got to pray in such general terms, and then I ask myself if I even care.  But I guess I really do care.  See the emotional turmoil this sort of thing causes me?  Fast forward to just 5 years ago.  I was listening to a former tourniquet member on a podcast.  Before I heard that I had no idea how many behind the scene issues Tourniquet had going on.  I don't know for sure if Tourniquet was ever been associated with Sanctuary but I did hear Pastor Bob Beemen use Tourniquet as an example of a band that struggled to find the right members to get the band going.  He made it sound like sometimes you got to make compromises in order to get a band going.  All I got to say is, from my point of view, whatever compromises that were made is now biting them in the butt.

I think it is a big mistake to form Christian based band with people who haven't built a firm foundation of faith in the Lord.  It's like weightlifting, sure steroids will make your muscles bigger quicker but for what cost to your over all health?

ThomasEversole wrote:For the music player on my phone and how I have music categorized/tagged, I stayed away from extra/lyrical adjectives as much as possible.  I mean, whether its Skald in Veum, 1349, Orationem, The Great Old Ones, Crimson Moonlight, Marduk - all are labeled as "Black Metal" on my device.

I'd feel like if I had a band as "Christian [music genre]" then I'd have to put other "lyric descriptors" for other entries for the sake of consistency.  Satanic [music genre], anti-Christian [music genre], violent [music genre], about death [music genre], about nature [music genre], about space [music genre], etc.

I could split the Christian entry even more than just "Christian lyrics" and "Christian members".  Some bands come across as more anti-anti-Christian than they do Christian so....  Man, what a cluster.

I don't understand why people make this so complicated.  Christian Band follow the Bible in everything you do.  Secular Band do whatever you please.

BTW Crimson Moonlight in my opinion does the best black metal I've ever heard.  Again just my opinion.

Right? So unnecessarily complicated. XD

I like Crimson Moonlight's older stuff better than their newer stuff.
The Covenant Progress is GOLD. Divine Darkness, unfortunately, I only really like the last track on the album.

-_-

ThomasEversole wrote:Right?  So unnecessarily complicated.  XD

I like Crimson Moonlight's older stuff better than their newer stuff.
The Covenant Progress is GOLD.  Divine Darkness, unfortunately, I only really like the last track on the album.

-_-

I don't even bother labeling the genre.  I'm an album listener.  So many Bands I like, mix and match so many different kinds of genres it would be a terrible mess to sort it all out.

Of course music does fit in it's own "box" - some "general rules" that it must follow in order to exist. But at the end of the day, it all boils down to what you enjoy listening too.

My current Crimson Moonlight Collection.

Code:

Crimson Moonlight
│   ├── Divine Darkness
│   ├── In Depths of Dreams Unconscious
│   ├── Songs From The Archives
│   ├── The Covenant Progress
│   └── Veil of Remembrance


I think it is a big mistake to form Christian based band with people who haven't built a firm foundation of faith in the Lord.

I respectfully disagree,

Does Lifeway use only Christian bricklayers to build their stores?  The bricklayers don't get to make decisions about what books are carried or get to make statements for the company.

People in bands have different roles.  My band has had non-Christian members, but they were never allowed to write lyrics.

I think people should stop assuming that bands function as democracies.  I would argue that the most successful bands do not.

Temple of Blood wrote:

I think it is a big mistake to form Christian based band with people who haven't built a firm foundation of faith in the Lord.

I respectfully disagree,

Does Lifeway use only Christian bricklayers to build their stores?  The bricklayers don't get to make decisions about what books are carried or get to make statements for the company.

People in bands have different roles.  My band has had non-Christian members, but they were never allowed to write lyrics.

I think people should stop assuming that bands function as democracies.  I would argue that the most successful bands do not.

I think it depends and I think Temple of Blood brought up a really good point.  If the non-Christian(s) in the band are more like hired guns than equal partners, I have less of an issue calling it a Christian band.  If they are an equal partner in a democracy then we fall into the example Grindboy brought up earlier.

I will say there is a small caution for what Temple of Blood brought up: if a non-Christian member of a Christian band is at a show and is "caught" in a non-Christian behavior it can be damaging to the band and the fans.  I don't expect non-Christians to act like Christians but if a band is a known Christian band, I do expect Christians to have some moral standards (knowing that we all sin and no one is perfect).

To repeat myself: I'm not judging.  I'm cool with a Christian band having non-Christian members.  I'm cool with a non-Christian band having Christian members and some Christian-ish songs (Impellitteri).  I'm cool with Christian-friendly.  I'm cool with the whole continuum, but it helps to know where on the continuum a band lies.

eatbugs wrote:
I think it depends and I think Temple of Blood brought up a really good point.  If the non-Christian(s) in the band are more like hired guns than equal partners, I have less of an issue calling it a Christian band.  If they are an equal partner in a democracy then we fall into the example Grindboy brought up earlier.

Agreed. Good points all around, definitely food for thought.

eatbugs wrote:I will say there is a small caution for what Temple of Blood brought up: if a non-Christian member of a Christian band is at a show and is "caught" in a non-Christian behavior it can be damaging to the band and the fans.  I don't expect non-Christians to act like Christians but if a band is a known Christian band, I do expect Christians to have some moral standards (knowing that we all sin and no one is perfect).

What you said is right @eatbugs, but somewhat related to what you said is something I have mixed feelings about.

I'm not pointing the fingers at any of you bros. If anything, what I'm referring to is what I've seen locally and elsewhere online.
Here's the scenario:

Christian buys band merch and enjoys the band → band does or says something heinous → Said Christian destroys or hides away said band merch and blacklists said band from their listening pallet.

I've been trying to wrap my head around this, trying to understand my comrades, and I keep coming back to the same conclusion for myself....
"This band person's sin is more gross than my sin, therefore, I'll sabotage my own playlist and/or throw my own money in the garbage."

I can't seem to intertwine the value of a product (a work of art), with the artist/producer's thoughts, opinions, actions, etc. before/after/unrelated to said product/art. I mean, I did this 20 years ago, and stopped doing it because I felt like I was making myself a bit of a judge.

On a semi related note: I saw a rather fascinating interview on VICE a while back. (I'll paraphrase it because I can't re-find the video right now, and this is how I remember it went)
There was an interviewer, and a group of people sitting in a circle. To avoid labels, I'll just say these people being interviewed were those who only believe in what is tangible and proven.
The interviewer opens a box, and passes around a nice sweater.
Their responses, ok - nice sweater.
The interviewer asks the group how they'd feel knowing that this sweater actually belonged to Martin Luther King Jr.
Some of the people there, their eyes lit up. Smiles and "Do want" were how I'd describe their reactions.
The interviewer then says he lied about that - the sweater actually belonged to serial killer cannibal, Jeffery Dahmer.
Some of the people there, seemed uncomfortable. Some, slightly horrified. They appeared to lose interest in even touch or looking at the sweater now.

The interviewer asks if they believe there is some sort of essence or "spirit" from Jeffery Dahmer, that now resides on this sweater?
It was a unanimous "Of course not!"
The interviewer then asked why they had their reactions? (impartial when "just a sweater", interested when MLKjr's sweater, disinterested when a serial killer's sweater)

....they.... really couldn't articulate why they reacted that way...
The responses seemed circular, and a bit flailed.

Bottom line, they conceded their reactions were illogical to them, but they couldn't help but have them.

I theorize that somewhere in the realm of emotions and opinions, people attach these emotions and opinions to "things", for better or worse. I guess I could have saved a lot of typing and just said "Sentiment exists". HAHA!!

Why though? Why do we value and devalue inanimate objects because of *list of things* the producer of said objects does?
*shrugs*
Add this to the mysteries about the brain I guess?

eatbugs wrote:To repeat myself: I'm not judging.  I'm cool with a Christian band having non-Christian members.  I'm cool with a non-Christian band having Christian members and some Christian-ish songs (Impellitteri).  I'm cool with Christian-friendly.  I'm cool with the whole continuum, but it helps to know where on the continuum a band lies.

...same here, and for myself, I'd even add that "I'm cool" with non-Christian bands with lyrics that go against what I believe.
Really, if I'm looking to listen to music, I'm really there for the music.

I'll use this example to explain my reasoning for this.

I don't believe that murder is right.... but I can think of a handful of movies/shows that I enjoy where murder is presented.
Then I ask myself, apart from format, what's the difference between a movie presenting murder in an interesting story, and a song presenting a murder in an interesting story?

Constantine wrote:That the next song is not suddenly going to shift to sex, drugs & rock n' roll, or let's praise the Sun god, or let's hang the Pope, or let's break the law, or whatever.  [/size]

Now I listen to those latter songs at times too, when I choose to.  There's some great music out there.  Not a big deal.  

My sentiments exactly.
I enjoy the spirituality aspect of Christian music... But I can enjoy quite the opposite for the artistic and aesthetic aspects too.

I do want to say I fully respect those show choose to recoil from some music, movies, etc. for any reason.
If it brings out a bad feeling, stay away. I would do the same, if I felt that way.

ThomasEversole wrote:

eatbugs

To repeat myself: I'm not judging.  I'm cool with a Christian band having non-Christian members.  I'm cool with a non-Christian band having Christian members and some Christian-ish songs (Impellitteri).  I'm cool with Christian-friendly.  I'm cool with the whole continuum, but it helps to know where on the continuum a band lies.

...same here, and for myself, I'd even add that "I'm cool" with non-Christian bands with lyrics that go against what I believe.  
Really, if I'm looking to listen to music, I'm really there for the music.

LOL.  Yeah, me too.  I just excluded that because it falls outside the scope of even being mistaken for Christian music.

Actually I DON'T listen to that.  It's a personal/Holy Spirit conviction.  I'm cool with you listening to it though and I'm even a little jealous of your spiritual freedom to do so.  I've said before that if I was released to listen to whatever, first thing tomorrow I'd go out and buy the entire Metallica catalog.

To me there's a very real (but impossible to define) line between what I can and can't listen to.  This is why knowing where a band stands is important.  This is why "Is ________ a Christian band?" threads matter.  I don't really care what the answer is - no judging on my part and God bless - but I need to know.  Bands have lost my financial support by dodging the question.

eatbugs wrote:LOL.  Yeah, me too.  I just excluded that because it falls outside the scope of even being mistaken for Christian music.

Actually I DON'T listen to that.  It's a personal/Holy Spirit conviction.  I'm cool with you listening to it though and I'm even a little jealous of your spiritual freedom to do so.  I've said before that if I was released to listen to whatever, first thing tomorrow I'd go out and buy the entire Metallica catalog.

To me there's a very real (but impossible to define) line between what I can and can't listen to.  This is why knowing where a band stands is important.  This is why "Is ________ a Christian band?" threads matter.  I don't really care what the answer is - no judging on my part and God bless - but I need to know.  Bands have lost my financial support by dodging the question.

Back many years ago, whenever an heard about an Artist that sinned in a big way.  I destroyed the CDs etc.  Now days I don't do that anymore.  If a Band or Artist goes bad, I just stop supporting them.  I will keep the Albums and usually I continue to listen with the feeling of reservation.  I don't like having the "bad memory".  I'm not a better Christian then the band member who sinned.  I just want a Sinner to repent.  In this case public figures need to repent publicly.  There is the exception that if the sin never made it to the public eye, then all they need to do is repent within the confines of the band.  I think there are more than one reason why Bands dodge the question.  It makes think that they don't want to be held accountable for their actions.  Say someone in the band decides to stop believing and becomes an Atheists.  They can just say "We were never a Christian Band in the first place."

I really love this thread. Lengthy posts, but worth reading. I can't hold myself back anymore, so at the peril of lowering the thread's quality, I'll share some of my thoughts on these matters.

If the gospel or more neutrally put, "christian themes" weren't important to me in music, I wouldn't have been on this board. There's this interplay and/or tension between quality of music and quality of lyrics going on for me, in all kinds of music for that matter (for example, Beethoven's 9th symphony is a great work, the texts are hopelessly naive at best though).
Of course the music should be good. Yet, the best music can be spoiled with the worst lyrics for me. On the other hand, if the music is bad, I'm not gonna put that aside just because the lyrics are good. That being said, there are plenty of bands that I listen to that don't make the greatest metal out there, but I listen to them anyway because the lyrics give the listening experience a boost, "redeeming" the music in a way. I'm just gonna guess that I'm not the only one who feels this way.

But there is the matter of lyrical development over time, along with changes in behaviour of the artists, both which you guys already discussed. This does add an extra dimension to my listening experience, even in retrospect.
For instance, the first Sinbreed album was a pretty clear example of christian metal. Yet with the second album onwards, the message changed significantly, sometimes even anti-christian. This situation is way worse for me than a band that has always had this lyrical approach.
In essence, the public apparent "falling away" of artists poisons their entire work for me, even the ones made with good intentions. In Sinbreed's case, listening their debut album afterwards just made me incredibly sad.

I got rid of that album. I'm not denying other people's listening experience with it, or even with their later albums, but the damage is done for me. And again, I'm having a hard time imagining that I'm the only one who thinks like that. Spiritual downfall can definitely ruin listening experiences. Not saying that they should though.

I hope I added something to the conversation. Or maybe I should've been thinking about it longer. Anyway, there it is.

^ I'm with you, bro. Sinbreed is a great example of a band kinda changing their direction. I haven't listened to their last albums a lot, but what I've heard doesn't even grab my interest that much. The first album is a killer record .

And about the lyrical content and the artist's behaviour, it's basically "practice what you preach". But on the other hand, who am I to say how they behave in their personal lives? I don't know them personally.

Here's a scenario that hasn't been discussed:

1.  Christian has a talent and passion for music and wants to record and play shows to promote love and obedience to Jesus Christ
2.  He has a limited pool of musicians to choose from in his area because of their limited musical skill, distance, commitment, etc.
3.  He decides he won't work with any of the secular musicians who are willing to work with him because they are not "mature in their faith" and he doesn't want to be criticized by people online who've never been in a band themselves and know what it takes to keep it going
4.  His music is never heard or it is done as an amateur-ish one man band with artificial instruments and no shows whatsoever to spread the music and thereby the message
5.  His musical talent is wasted

THE END

eatbugs wrote:
LOL.  Yeah, me too.  I just excluded that because it falls outside the scope of even being mistaken for Christian music.

Actually I DON'T listen to that.  It's a personal/Holy Spirit conviction.  I'm cool with you listening to it though and I'm even a little jealous of your spiritual freedom to do so.  I've said before that if I was released to listen to whatever, first thing tomorrow I'd go out and buy the entire Metallica catalog.

Its interesting how the grass looks greener on the other side?
I've been self-conscious about Christians brothers avoiding a band, release or a song, meanwhile I don't "feel bad" when I listen to it. My conclusions is - its not something I'm doing wrong, or they're doing wrong - much like Constantine stated, its a feeling thing, case by case, listener and band.

What's interesting though is that while some Christians have a conviction that prevents them from enjoying/liking/listening to secular music (especially if its against their faith) - there's also something very similar on the other side as well. People, against Christianity, who refuse to listen to Christian music because its against their belief (or non-belief). I don't know if I'd call what they're doing a "conviction" - definitely not in the same way as a Christian conviction.

Years ago, I was in college, made an acquaintance who liked metal.
"Oh you write and record metal? Me too!" ...and then we swapped albums.
We both liked each others music (extreme metal), but his was satanic, mine was Christian.
I told him I listened to the whole thing, and enjoyed it.
He told me he listened about half of mine because he couldn't "do Christian music" and it was "getting to him".
I didn't intend to offend him, but I was a bit blunt - "why can I listen to music I don't believe in, but you can't?"

He couldn't answer that. ...and then he pretty much avoided me from then on.
:/

That being said, I do have a conviction toward some music, but its a very specific scenario.
Christian music, obviously I have no issue with it. Music that's not identified as Christian or not, if the lyrics are ambiguous enough to sound Christian to me, again no issue. Satanic or Anti-Christian music, no issue because the lost will act lost, but I enjoy it for an entirely different reason. (like the difference between enjoying a true documentary, and enjoying fantasy fiction)

A Christian band that has Christian-ish lyrics, but it seems like something else, this is what bothers me. An example - I encountered a Christian band a while ago that had a song about Christ drinking the anti-Christ's blood. Now, I'm sure their INTENT was to portray Christ as defeating the anti-Christ, but I couldn't shake these feelings that they were making Christ into a vampire.... or some sort of Christ communion with the anti-Christ, or some kind of "Christ has gone mad" type thing.

Bottom line, I like pizza. ....and I like ice cream.
...but if I took a bite of pizza and it tasted like ice cream, or I took a bite of ice cream and it tasted like pizza, I'd think something was wrong with it, and I wouldn't want to proceed trying to "enjoy" it.

MetalMusicforJesus99 wrote:
Back many years ago, whenever an heard about an Artist that sinned in a big way.  I destroyed the CDs etc.  Now days I don't do that anymore.  If a Band or Artist goes bad, I just stop supporting them.  I will keep the Albums and usually I continue to listen with the feeling of reservation.

Stopping your support of a band because of something they did, or something they said - makes perfect sense to me.
Actually if they came out with a new album that had a pink cover, and you didn't want to support them because you're not interested in the color pink - again, that makes sense to me.

Buying their merch and then destroying what you bought doesn't make sense to me though... I get stopping support out of protest, but not "throwing my own money away".

ThomasEversole wrote:I'm not pointing the fingers at any of you bros. If anything, what I'm referring to is what I've seen locally and elsewhere online.

I was hesitant to bring up this example since its off topic to Christian music, but this is what I was REALLY thinking about on a local level. (there is a parallel to this topic I think, which is why I'm bringing it up now)

The Cosby Show.

I enjoyed watching this years ago. I still enjoy watching it now. Good times.
Yes, what he did is awful and criminal, but that's not what the show's about, so I'm good.

I have friends and family that can't STAND to watch this now because of what Bill Cosby was accused and then convicted of.

I've been trying to pinpoint the hows and whys of their avoidance. I'm really not trying to be a jerk, I just want to understand "the conviction".

Obviously, The Cosby Show isn't about "Dr Huxtable the rapist" at all, perhaps its a speculation thing, like they imagine him raping people between takes or something? ...and that turned the whole show sour for them?

Honestly, and I don't mean to sound obtuse saying this, but they enjoyed it just fine when they didn't know. I mean, what Cosby did or didn't do didn't change - with or without the show - what changed is what they knew then, compared to what they know now. (what he did)

Here's how my mind has tried to wrap around this:
If me knowing what a member from a band/show does is absolutely the variable between me supporting it, or consuming it, or avoiding it.... well then, I better get to knowing. That means, no buying/watching ANYTHING until I do a full Google dig to see what they've said and done. Then I've got to decide if what I find is slight disapproval, or an all-out dealbreaker.

That to me, seems like judgmental overkill. ....but not doing it, feels like hypocrisy. (like, "being a rapist" is worth avoiding media with said rapist, but I'm only going to do anything when this news falls into my lap?)

Again, my apologies, I'm not trying to be insensitive - but this is about as far as I've got with understanding this type of scenario.

The answers I've got were basically, "this gives me a bad feeling now, and I can't do it." without really an explanation. Obviously, I respect that greatly... and I would rather just not know to keep the peace, than push for an explanation and rock the boat.

...but it would be nice if I could wrap my head around the mechanics behind this, so I can understand the "why" better.

-_________-

Sorry for the triple post folks. I wanted to try to clarify something.

You bros that have convictions about music, and have stated this is without judging people or bands, I believe you.
I have not picked up any judgmental vibe whatsoever from any of you bros.

What I rambled about, is that I have not been able to figure out this conviction thing on my end, without me/myself being judgmental toward people or bands.

Really, it feels a bit like I'm a math teacher. (I accept the answer is correct, but I don't see the work shown so I don't know how that answer came about)

Perhaps its a non-issue anyway....