Under Attack

Do you guys ever feel that dark forces are in play, trying to drag you down in your life and/or stop you from doing God's work?

I've got a recent example. The current record label that I'm on for Orationem is doing a re-release of the first two albums on one CD. Him and I have made 4-5 attempts to get that album uploaded for CD production and every attempt has failed! Shortening and even removing the intros and outros just would not burn. This is trying to put 75 minutes of music on an 80 minute CD, from standard WAV files (that I've used every release I've done), burning with no gaps, and it still would not fit!!! Never seen anything like it - between all the screenshots he sent to me, its not user error!

We FINALLY got it to work, but I had to make an unconventional change to the sound files to make this happen. With this music having a bold Christ centered message, and these problems we've never encountered before despite both me and the label having produced many other releases, its hard not to think evil is playing games.

...which brings me to the secondary point. How do we know when its actually evil, and just a "bad coincidence"?

Its not like anyone can prove things going wrong are Satan's touch, so it would obviously require a type of faith to believe there is unholy intervention.

Is there any harm for thinking circumstance X comes from darkness and circumstance Y comes from bad luck?
How do we/you discern the two?

What are your thoughts?

ThomasEversole wrote:Do you guys ever feel that dark forces are in play, trying to drag you down in your life and/or stop you from doing God's work?

...which brings me to the secondary point.  How do we know when its actually evil, and just a "bad coincidence"?

Its not like anyone can prove things going wrong are Satan's touch, so it would obviously require a type of faith to believe there is unholy intervention.

Is there any harm for thinking circumstance X comes from darkness and circumstance Y comes from bad luck?
How do we/you discern the two?

What are your thoughts?

Well yes I believe Satan is always at work against us, another example happened last week.

Me and my youth group were going to go to a worship conference in Portland Oregon.

The day before 3 people in my youth group got sick, and a huge storm was predicted to hit Portland, despite us cancelling the trip, we have re-scheduled to go to one next month in my hometown of Walla Walla. I pray that we all can actually go next month.

I dont know its tough to say what the difference is between, Satan and bad luck/coincidences

I think Satan would be powerful enough to do just about anything, but of course Jesus and the Holy Spirit being in us keep him in check.
So maybe there is no such thing as coincidences? Maybe its just things he gets away with per say?

Paul says in Ephesians 6:12

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

If we don't fight against flesh and blood, then neither do the evil spirits of our day fight against us in our flesh and blood. Our battles are entirely spiritual and our physical problems are just things that happen.

New Creation wrote:Paul says in Ephesians 6:12

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

If we don't fight against flesh and blood, then neither do the evil spirits of our day fight against us in our flesh and blood. Our battles are entirely spiritual and our physical problems are just things that happen.

Oh, I was thinking more like Numbers 22:22--

New Creation wrote:Paul says in Ephesians 6:12

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

If we don't fight against flesh and blood, then neither do the evil spirits of our day fight against us in our flesh and blood. Our battles are entirely spiritual and our physical problems are just things that happen.

If our battles are only spiritual, then we should be able to avoid all battles if we avoid spirituality.

If evil has no physical manifest, then why was anything different after the fall of Adam and Eve?
If Satan can't/won't manifest physical evil, then what really happened in the story of Job?

ThomasEversole wrote:

New Creation wrote:Paul says in Ephesians 6:12

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

If we don't fight against flesh and blood, then neither do the evil spirits of our day fight against us in our flesh and blood. Our battles are entirely spiritual and our physical problems are just things that happen.

If our battles are only spiritual, then we should be able to avoid all battles if we avoid spirituality.  

If evil has no physical manifest, then why was anything different after the fall of Adam and Eve?
If Satan can't/won't manifest physical evil, then what really happened in the story of Job?

Oh, things were very different then. Under the Old Covenant especially, the spirits manifested all the time to try and thwart God's people and His plan to bring Christ into the world. Today, things are far different.

In Job, God allowed Satan to attack Job like that.


Otherwise, I do not believe that Satan has any control over God's creation, we just allow him to scare and intimidate us...

srguenther wrote:
Otherwise, I do not believe that Satan has any control over God's creation, we just allow him to scare and intimidate us...

Sounds like Satan is just a boogy man with no real power.

New Creation wrote:Oh, things were very different then. Under the Old Covenant especially, the spirits manifested all the time to try and thwart God's people and His plan to bring Christ into the world. Today, things are far different.

I'll just say I disagree with this

Hardcore Christian wrote:

New Creation wrote:Oh, things were very different then. Under the Old Covenant especially, the spirits manifested all the time to try and thwart God's people and His plan to bring Christ into the world. Today, things are far different.

I'll just say I disagree with this

You disagree that they don't manifest physically today, or you disagree that they were trying to thwart God's plan of bringing Christ into the world?

New Creation wrote:
Oh, things were very different then. Under the Old Covenant especially, the spirits manifested all the time to try and thwart God's people and His plan to bring Christ into the world. Today, things are far different.

The "Old Covenant" was the old testament, right? What about these verses where Christ was already in the world?

Luke 13:10 On a Sabbath Jesus was teaching in one of the synagogues, 11 and a woman was there who had been crippled by a spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not straighten up at all. 12 When Jesus saw her, he called her forward and said to her, “Woman, you are set free from your infirmity.” 13 Then he put his hands on her, and immediately she straightened up and praised God.

Satan has been named as the "prince", "god", or "ruler" of this world (John 14:30; cf. John 12:31; 16:11; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4; Ephesians 2:2; Colossians 1:13) - how can he be called those titles (synonymous with those of great power) if he can't DO anything nowadays?

ThomasEversole wrote:

New Creation wrote:
Oh, things were very different then. Under the Old Covenant especially, the spirits manifested all the time to try and thwart God's people and His plan to bring Christ into the world. Today, things are far different.

The "Old Covenant" was the old testament, right?  What about these verses where Christ was already in the world?

Sort of.  The Old Covenant was God's covenant with Israel.  That was fulfilled by Christ's death and resurrection through which came the New Covenant.  The New Covenant didn't fully go into effect until after He was resurrected.

ThomasEversole wrote:

New Creation wrote:
Oh, things were very different then. Under the Old Covenant especially, the spirits manifested all the time to try and thwart God's people and His plan to bring Christ into the world. Today, things are far different.

The "Old Covenant" was the old testament, right?  What about these verses where Christ was already in the world?

Luke 13:10 On a Sabbath Jesus was teaching in one of the synagogues, 11 and a woman was there who had been crippled by a spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not straighten up at all. 12 When Jesus saw her, he called her forward and said to her, “Woman, you are set free from your infirmity.” 13 Then he put his hands on her, and immediately she straightened up and praised God.

Satan has been named as the "prince", "god", or "ruler" of this world (John 14:30; cf. John 12:31; 16:11; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4; Ephesians 2:2; Colossians 1:13) - how can he be called those titles (synonymous with those of great power) if he can't DO anything nowadays?

The Old Covenant ran up until Christ's death on the cross. That's why when He handed them the cup, He said "This is the New Testament (Covenant) of My blood...". He still had influence in the New Covenant, but that was partway into Paul's gospel, the Dispensation of Grace. Once that was in full effect, and our hope and blessings turned to the heavenly places and earthly curses had less meaning.

Today, he has influence in hearts and minds of those that let him, but anyone without Christ is as evil as he is, so his influence is superfluous.

New Creation wrote:

Hardcore Christian wrote:

New Creation wrote:Oh, things were very different then. Under the Old Covenant especially, the spirits manifested all the time to try and thwart God's people and His plan to bring Christ into the world. Today, things are far different.

I'll just say I disagree with this

You disagree that they don't manifest physically today, or you disagree that they were trying to thwart God's plan of bringing Christ into the world?

Or perhaps he disagrees with the view that things are different now than they were then, meaning perhaps he believes things work the same now as then.

I'm not going to get deep into this because it isn't good for me.  I will say that, IMO, if there was a natural workaround for your problem, albeit unconventional, it likely wasn't Satan working against the release of the album.

messiaen77 wrote:I'm not going to get deep into this because it isn't good for me.  I will say that, IMO, if there was a natural workaround for your problem, albeit unconventional, it likely wasn't Satan working against the release of the album.

Yeah, well I spoke too soon.  The "test run" ended up working, but doing the exact same thing to start the pressing, we ran into the same problem we have before.  For some reason, a prior 77 minute release worked through this company, but now, this 75 minute 545mb album no longer "fits" in a 80 minute CD with a 700mb limit even doing exactly what we did before.

Back to square one.

New Creation wrote:
If we don't fight against flesh and blood, then neither do the evil spirits of our day fight against us in our flesh and blood. Our battles are entirely spiritual and our physical problems are just things that happen.

New Creation wrote:
Oh, things were very different then. Under the Old Covenant especially, the spirits manifested all the time to try and thwart God's people and His plan to bring Christ into the world. Today, things are far different.

I hate to be the "burden of proof" guy, but where is this written in scripture that spirits don't negatively effect people in modern times?  I've looked everywhere and I can't find it and every external reference I can find is educated conjecture at best.

Since its impossible to prove "Satan did it" regarding anything, all we can really speculate on is the possibility of chance of it happening.

I think it comes down to these 3 points:

a) If there is ANY chance the forces of darkness could act in modern times, (stop a Christian CD from pressing, give someone cancer, sapping someone's serotonin to make them feel like crap, etc.) then any negative thing that happens in our lives is still on the table towards "Satan did it".
b) If there is ZERO chance the forces of darkness effecting us physically in modern times, then Satan being named as the "prince", "god", or "ruler" of this world (as I mentioned in the previous verses) then his said power mentioned is complete fiction as he literally can't/won't/doesn't do anything to really effect us.
c) Verificationism approach. Don't know. Can't know. So there's no real reason to even talk about it.

A and B require their own faith (without proof) to subscribe to and C just wreaks of apathy. ...so which one is it?

I will reply sometime this weekend. Great discussion!

I think it comes down to these 3 points:

a) If there is ANY chance the forces of darkness could act in modern times, (stop a Christian CD from pressing, give someone cancer, sapping someone's serotonin to make them feel like crap, etc.) then any negative thing that happens in our lives is still on the table towards "Satan did it".
b) If there is ZERO chance the forces of darkness effecting us physically in modern times, then Satan being named as the "prince", "god", or "ruler" of this world (as I mentioned in the previous verses) then his said power mentioned is complete fiction as he literally can't/won't/doesn't do anything to really effect us.

While I definitely don't think we should be seeing Satan behind every rock, I do feel that we have lost sight that there are powers of darkness afoot.  Even Jesus had to cast out demons from people who were crazy and superhuman levels of strong, sick, etc.  The disciples (aka apostles) also did the same works.  Nowhere in the scripture do you see these things told that these things would stop.  After the Holy Spirit is given is when miracles begin to pop for the church.

What am I getting at?  Perhaps we've lost sight of the devil's power because, truthfully, we have forgotten about God's power.  We ignore the spiritual battle that surrounds us.  While I don't espouse the whole Frank Peretti novel approach to spiritual warfare, I do think we need to be more open to what goes on in realms we can't see.  Demons do exist and do try to wreck people.  Satan himself is like a lion seeking whom he may DEVOUR.  He wants to steal, KILL, and DESTROY.  He is our adversary.

If we are going to accept that reality, then we also have to accept the reality that Jesus gave us authority over these things.  We should fast, pray against them, and speak God's truth over them.  That is how Jesus defeated the works of the enemy when He himself was being tempted in the desert.

New Creation wrote:Paul says in Ephesians 6:12

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

If we don't fight against flesh and blood, then neither do the evil spirits of our day fight against us in our flesh and blood. Our battles are entirely spiritual and our physical problems are just things that happen.

Here are some Bible verses for consideration from the New Covenant that still mention demons can affect us in the flesh or the physical realm.
 
“Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.” (2 Corinthians 12:7)

The word “messenger” is the same Greek word used for angel (as can be seen here: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G32&t=KJV).  This is therefore a demonic spirit.

Paul is specifically mentioning this demon is affecting his flesh.

 
This is another story that mentions the sick were healed, and as a result of being healed the evil spirits left them (indicating the evil spirits were either causing the sickness, or at the very least affecting it).

^“God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.” (Acts 19:11-12)

 
Also this story indicates demons were speaking through people (which is affecting the physical realm):

^“Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.” Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this.  One day the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?” Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.” (Acts 19:13-16)

 
Here is another one that talks about Satan affecting the flesh of a man:

“hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 5:5)

 
While not blatantly clear, this verse seems to also imply Paul was hindered by Satan in the physical realm by not being able to go somewhere that he wanted to go:

“For we wanted to come to you—certainly I, Paul, did, again and again—but Satan blocked our way.” (1 Thessalonians 2:18)

Devon Hill wrote:

New Creation wrote:Paul says in Ephesians 6:12

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

If we don't fight against flesh and blood, then neither do the evil spirits of our day fight against us in our flesh and blood. Our battles are entirely spiritual and our physical problems are just things that happen.

Here are some Bible verses for consideration from the New Covenant that still mention demons can affect us in the flesh or the physical realm.
 
“Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.” (2 Corinthians 12:7)

The word “messenger” is the same Greek word used for angel (as can be seen here: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G32&t=KJV).  This is therefore a demonic spirit.

Paul is specifically mentioning this demon is affecting his flesh.

 
This is another story that mentions the sick were healed, and as a result of being healed the evil spirits left them (indicating the evil spirits were either causing the sickness, or at the very least affecting it).

^“God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.” (Acts 19:11-12)

 
Also this story indicates demons were speaking through people (which is affecting the physical realm):

^“Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.” Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this.  One day the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?” Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.” (Acts 19:13-16)

 
Here is another one that talks about Satan affecting the flesh of a man:

“hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 5:5)

 
While not blatantly clear, this verse seems to also imply Paul was hindered by Satan in the physical realm by not being able to go somewhere that he wanted to go:

“For we wanted to come to you—certainly I, Paul, did, again and again—but Satan blocked our way.” (1 Thessalonians 2:18)

Thanks. I have answers for these, and will endeavor to reply. Sorry, but we were out of the house almost all weekend and I've got a very full week ahead. I'll do my best to return to this thread soon.

On one hand, I think caution is in order. You can quickly descend into paranoia if you're not careful. While demonic forces are very real, that doesn't mean they're at work behind every negative thing that pops up. A little skepticism isn't a bad thing here.

On the other hand, it's very, very unwise to dismiss such things. I say this from personal experience. I used to blow off the whole Satan/demons/spiritual warfare thing. I didn't consider them superstition exactly - more like things that were possible but very rare. I certainly didn't give serious consideration to them having an effect on ME.

Part of it was pride of course. Like so many people, I like to see myself as strong-willed and in control. Also, I think the fact that I was a former skeptic had a lot to do with it. That sort of worldly mentality can be hard to shake, especially in this present time when those who do believe in things of that nature are increasingly seen as backwards and ignorant at best. Even amoung Christians it offen affects our way of thinking. Alldat is absolutely right about losing sight of spiritual realities. We can't afford to do that.

As for what to do in practical terms, I can offer three points of advise based on my own experience.

First, be vigilant. Don't ever assume it can't or won't happen to you. The Devil wants us to blow it off, to not take the threat seriously.

Second, watch for patterns. Once or twice, it may be simple misfortune. If similar events or situations keep coming up, it becomes a mighty suspicious.

Third, and most importantly, PRAY. Turn to God for aid, for strength, for protection. Do this regardless of what you believe to be the cause of what's happening. It should be our first course of action anyway, but especially so when we think we may be dealing with a supernatural threat.

God created everything, inclung Satan. I believe that Satan cannot have power over the things that God created. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak - meaning it's us that walks into the traps that Satan and the demons have set for us. My belief on this came from a discussion in a theology class on whether or not Satan has an anti-Christ waiting at all times because even he doesn't know when the end times will be.....I understand if I am not explaing this clearly...I have a limited amount of time to contribute...

You know I was joking about Numbers 22 the other day. Nobody seemed to catch that. Oh well.

But, have you or anyone seriously considered that this could be what is at play with what you are experiencing? What do you think?

Verbum Lux wrote:
Second, watch for patterns.  Once or twice, it may be simple misfortune.  If similar events or situations keep coming up, it becomes a mighty suspicious.

This is exactly what sparked me to create this thread. It was a pattern that started looking like something besides user error in this re-release me and CMU are doing.

First time it didn't work, I thought "Well different company, they need the files a certain way."
Second time it didn't work, after changing the audio files, I thought, "Well maybe Duane is not choosing the right settings when uploading the master"
Third time it didn't work, after seeing screenshots of him doing it correctly, "Well maybe this production company is junk and they can't handle more than 75 minutes of music on one CD".

Fourth time after seeing screens of a successful upload of a 77 minute album, but my 75 minutes still wasn't working, same audio format, same company, same people... THAT'S when I started thinking there might be something evil afoot. ESPECIALLY since now BandCamp won't accept the audio files. (and they even accept crappy MP3s!)

If I saw someone trip over a rock on a sidewalk and blame Satan, I'd be thinking - no way. If I saw it again, I'd think they were clumsy - still not satan. If they went to a different sidewalk and I saw it again, I'd be thinking the sidewalks were bad around here. If I saw again everyone walking normally, and this poor guy is still falling - man, SOMETHING out of the ordinary is going on here.

Um, yeah.....you're definitely well into downright creepy territory there.