Questions about John 14:6...
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Questions about John 14:6...
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
Sorry if this seems ranty...
I always thought the correct context of Christ saying to get to The Father, you have to get/go through Christ. ...was to get people/the disciples to stop talking to the sky when God (the Son) was right there in front of them.
Jesus Christ is 100% God, 100% man, right?
Do Christians really think people will get smacked into hell if they go to God the Father rather than God the Son? Really?
That's like me getting pissed because someone made my Christmas card out to "Tom the brother" rather than "Tom the Uncle". Why? I'm both a brother and an uncle!
To me it's the same thing with God. God is God. I want to go to ALL of Him, and I think God wants that as well. Apart from deciding to take that one verse at face value, it doesn't make sense that God still wants us to only broadcast to Christ who isn't even hear on earth anymore...
Opinions?
Sorry if this seems ranty...
I always thought the correct context of Christ saying to get to The Father, you have to get/go through Christ. ...was to get people/the disciples to stop talking to the sky when God (the Son) was right there in front of them.
Jesus Christ is 100% God, 100% man, right?
Do Christians really think people will get smacked into hell if they go to God the Father rather than God the Son? Really?
That's like me getting pissed because someone made my Christmas card out to "Tom the brother" rather than "Tom the Uncle". Why? I'm both a brother and an uncle!
To me it's the same thing with God. God is God. I want to go to ALL of Him, and I think God wants that as well. Apart from deciding to take that one verse at face value, it doesn't make sense that God still wants us to only broadcast to Christ who isn't even hear on earth anymore...
Opinions?
ThomasEversole- Holy Unblack Knight
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Re: Questions about John 14:6...
I think this adds into the Trinity discussion, when praying or worshiping, do we really need to define which part we are worshiping?
If you believe they are three in one, one in three, I think this shouldn't be a problem as "getting" to God through either aspect of Him, would be the same.
If you believe they are three in one, one in three, I think this shouldn't be a problem as "getting" to God through either aspect of Him, would be the same.
Hardcore Christian- Holy Unblack Knight
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Re: Questions about John 14:6...
I'm glad that makes sense to someone else besides me!
ThomasEversole- Holy Unblack Knight
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Re: Questions about John 14:6...
Romans 10:9-10 really clear this up
That being said, God will not hold anyone accountable for what they don't know. The uncontacted tribesman, who decides one day that there is a Creator, that there is more to life than hunting, trading, raising his family, etc. If that man, decides to believe, then He will be accepted by God. The blood of Christ will cover him.
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
That being said, God will not hold anyone accountable for what they don't know. The uncontacted tribesman, who decides one day that there is a Creator, that there is more to life than hunting, trading, raising his family, etc. If that man, decides to believe, then He will be accepted by God. The blood of Christ will cover him.
New Creation- Holy Unblack Knight
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Re: Questions about John 14:6...
New Creation wrote:Romans 10:9-10 really clear this up
Yup. If you look at the verses right before that, Jesus is talking about leaving Earth and going to heaven. So with regards to the disciples, He's not talking about praying to God but rather eternal life with Him. Jesus is THE only way to eternal life.
So in answer of your question (though you already know my answer haha)...
ThomasEversole wrote:Do Christians really think people will get smacked into hell if they go to God the Father rather than God the Son? Really?
...Yes. You argue that because of the structure of the Trinity, accepting God the Father = accepting Christ. But what about the other way around? Does directly rejecting Christ =/= rejecting God the Father who sent Him?
Kerrick- Tyrant
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Re: Questions about John 14:6...
I guess I don't understand how you could agree with Adam's scripture, but not his comments of it. (He stated it's based on a default)
I'm not saying accepting the Father is the same as the Son, even if they are all for one. That's jacked up to think someone would go to hell just because they went to the wrong part of the trinity.
While Jesus Christ has been my direction regarding salvation, I don't believe God plays that hard to get, that someone would be crushed the same as if they denied God...
I'm not saying accepting the Father is the same as the Son, even if they are all for one. That's jacked up to think someone would go to hell just because they went to the wrong part of the trinity.
While Jesus Christ has been my direction regarding salvation, I don't believe God plays that hard to get, that someone would be crushed the same as if they denied God...
ThomasEversole- Holy Unblack Knight
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Re: Questions about John 14:6...
ThomasEversole wrote:I guess I don't understand how you could agree with Adam's scripture, but not his comments of it. (He stated it's based on a default)
I *think* Adam is referencing Romans 1:20, which I've heard used to back up his claims before:
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
I didn't respond to his post because I'm not sure I am knowledgeable enough in that area to. However, I do think it almost points to the opposite: that everyone is "without excuse" and therefore judged and condemned for not accepting Christ - whether they've heard His name or not. Reading ahead to verse 21...
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
I can't think of any other verses off the top of my head that affirm his claims. I did a quick internet search and came upon this article which I would tend to agree with, especially the last part:
...Instead of debating the fate of those who have never heard, we, as Christians, should be doing our best to make sure they do hear. We are called to spread the gospel throughout the nations ([url=http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Matt 28.19-20]Matthew 28:19-20[/url]; [url=http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Acts 1.8]Acts 1:8[/url]). We know people reject the knowledge of God revealed in nature, and that must motivate us to proclaim the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ. Only by accepting God’s grace through the Lord Jesus Christ can people be saved from their sins and rescued from an eternity apart from God.
If we assume that those who never hear the gospel are granted mercy from God, we will run into a terrible problem. If people who never hear the gospel are saved, it is logical that we should make sure no one ever hears the gospel. The worst thing we could do would be to share the gospel with a person and have him or her reject it. If that were to happen, he or she would be condemned. People who do not hear the gospel must be condemned, or else there is no motivation for evangelism. Why run the risk of people possibly rejecting the gospel and condemning themselves when they were previously saved because they had never heard the gospel?
ThomasEversole wrote:That's jacked up to think someone would go to hell just because they went to the wrong part of the trinity.
By whose standards is that jacked up? Yours or God's? By most modern, western standards, the total destruction of the Amonites in Joshua is pretty "jacked up" too. And even though I might try to rationalize or justify it by human standards to make me feel better about trusting in a God who would do such a thing... at the end of the day I need to accept with faith that He is still good. I think the same applies to the topic at hand. If you're right, then why does the book of Hebrews exist? If Jews-turned-Christians returning to Judaism is still "right," why did the author plead with and command them to not stray (Hebrews 2)??? By earthly, human standards... I totally agree with you Thomas. If I were God, I think I'd do it as you suggest He does. However, to my understanding, that is not what the Bible says.
ThomasEversole wrote:While Jesus Christ has been my direction regarding salvation, I don't believe God plays that hard to get, that someone would be crushed the same as if they denied God...
Again, by human standards... yes. But I don't see that in Scripture and we have to go by it and not our emotions.
Kerrick- Tyrant
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Re: Questions about John 14:6...
Kerrick wrote:ThomasEversole wrote:I guess I don't understand how you could agree with Adam's scripture, but not his comments of it. (He stated it's based on a default)
I *think* Adam is referencing Romans 1:20, which I've heard used to back up his claims before:
I dunno. I think Adam meant to reference the scripture he referenced. Heck, we could have ended the thread if he would have just left his post to one sentence. "God will not hold anyone accountable for what they don't know."
Kerrick wrote:However, I do think it almost points to the opposite: that everyone is "without excuse" and therefore judged and condemned for not accepting Christ - whether they've heard His name or not.
Wow. So, being an aborted fetus must REALLY suck. Also being alive before Christ came to earth must also really suck. Doesn't matter if you lived before Christ, or in an isolated in the jungle your entire life or were murdered as a developed baby. No excuses. If you didn't accept CHRIST, then you will be denied.
I'm actually stunned that this is what you're proposing as "God's standard".
Kerrick wrote:People who do not hear the gospel must be condemned, or else there is no motivation for evangelism.
Someone who's not motivated to evangelize has an excuse. Motivation has nothing to do with what's required.
Kerrick wrote:Again, by human standards... yes. But I don't see that in Scripture and we have to go by it and not our emotions.
Kerrick wrote:By whose standards is that jacked up? Yours or God's?
That works both ways there chief. Is it your standard or God's, to take this one verse (John 14:6) at 100% literal realtime face value today, irregardless to what other verses in the Bible say? I'm not flying on emotions here. I'm basing this on Christ's teachings. Here, let me help you out:
Luke 10:25-28 (NLT)
25 One day an expert in religious law stood up to test Jesus by asking him this question: “Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 Jesus replied, “What does the law of Moses say? How do you read it?” 27 The man answered, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind.’ And, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 “Right!” Jesus told him. “Do this and you will live!”
That clearly states you can have eternal life by going to God. Jesus said the answer was in Moses's law - well, Moses had no idea who Christ was because it was before his time. You mentioned no one hearing the gospel being granted mercy being a problem, its even more of a problem to assume a infinite loving, graceful Lord God is essentially worthless while we're a human here on earth. If everything is by proxy, through ONLY his Son even before He came to earth... then someone could still be saved if they told God the Father to eff off or tell Him he doesn't exist or that He's really the devil... ...as LONG as you have accepted salvation through His Son, you're good.
Right.
Allow me to quote Al from Home Improvement.
"I don't think so Tim."
ThomasEversole- Holy Unblack Knight
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Re: Questions about John 14:6...
The immediate context is about Jesus explaining that He and the Father are on the same level. That not only does His works prove that he was sent by God, but that He IS God in human flesh. Rejecting Him is the same as rejecting the works and will of God.
That said, here are some passages that will help with the big picture....
Christs great commission the the Apostles..
Matthew 28:18-20New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
Romans 10
11 The scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and is generous to all who call on him. 13 For, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
14 But how are they to call on one in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in one of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone to proclaim him? 15 And how are they to proclaim him unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” 16 But not all have obeyed the good news, for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ
Also, I believe scripture is clear that no son or daughter of Adam is seeking God, but God must seek them out and bring them into the Kingdom by the power of the Gospel. So I believe that God will reveal Himself accordingly to even to some lost tribe in some third world country. This is why missionary work is part of Gods will in the Great Commission.
....just some thoughts off the top of my head from my pov.
That said, here are some passages that will help with the big picture....
Christs great commission the the Apostles..
Matthew 28:18-20New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
Romans 10
11 The scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and is generous to all who call on him. 13 For, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
14 But how are they to call on one in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in one of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone to proclaim him? 15 And how are they to proclaim him unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” 16 But not all have obeyed the good news, for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ
Also, I believe scripture is clear that no son or daughter of Adam is seeking God, but God must seek them out and bring them into the Kingdom by the power of the Gospel. So I believe that God will reveal Himself accordingly to even to some lost tribe in some third world country. This is why missionary work is part of Gods will in the Great Commission.
....just some thoughts off the top of my head from my pov.
sentient 6- Sacred Metal Prophet
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Re: Questions about John 14:6...
ThomasEversole wrote:
Do Christians really think people will get smacked into hell if they go to God the Father rather than God the Son? Really?
My personal view is that people are sent to hell for their sin and not for their rejection of Jesus Christ. But I also believe Jesus Christ bore the wrath against sin for elect only, and that we are either represented by Jesus Christ or we are represented by Adam. Being under Adam is bad and incurs Gods just punishment. Being under Christ is good, because the judgment for sin was placed on Him. I also believe that the gates of hell will be locked from the inside and not from the outside. After people are sent to hell, I believe those people will continue to sin and continue in the rebellion to God.
....little off topic but related non-the-less. Just my thoughts on the matter.
sentient 6- Sacred Metal Prophet
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Re: Questions about John 14:6...
“Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. 20 For all who do evil hate the light and do not come to the light, so that their deeds may not be exposed. 21 But those who do what is true come to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that their deeds have been done in God.”Kerrick wrote:Does directly rejecting Christ =/= rejecting God the Father who sent Him?
...also, a study of John 17 would be very helpful to this topic as well.
sentient 6- Sacred Metal Prophet
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Re: Questions about John 14:6...
Good works don't send you to Heaven and bad works don't send you to Hell. It is all based on a belief/trust, or lack thereof, in Jesus Christ, His death for our sins, and His resurrection for our glorification.
I'll reply more tonight after work.
I'll reply more tonight after work.
New Creation- Holy Unblack Knight
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Re: Questions about John 14:6...
The motive in this thread wasn't to break down salvation, heaven and hell. It is basically about that word "only" and how narrow this road really is.
Either you think John 14:6 is the indicator that Christ, God the Son is the ONLY way to salvation, NOT God the Father, no "excuses"
...or you think John 14:6 was Christ's way of saying He is God, and that going to God the whoever is still going to God and God is the ONLY salvation
So... which is it? I can't tell from some of the replies.
Either you think John 14:6 is the indicator that Christ, God the Son is the ONLY way to salvation, NOT God the Father, no "excuses"
...or you think John 14:6 was Christ's way of saying He is God, and that going to God the whoever is still going to God and God is the ONLY salvation
So... which is it? I can't tell from some of the replies.
ThomasEversole- Holy Unblack Knight
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Re: Questions about John 14:6...
ThomasEversole wrote:So... which is it? I can't tell from some of the replies.
Romans 10:9 as already stated - believe and confess Jesus Christ is Lord and that God raise Him from the dead. I think the key there is that "God raised him from the dead", not that He raised Himself. Yes, we all know that Jesus is God, but to separate out His humanity as well for purposes of this verse is key.
Another key verse is Acts 16:31 which states it so very plainly that there is no question ""And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.""
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Re: Questions about John 14:6...
ThomasEversole wrote:The motive in this thread wasn't to break down salvation, heaven and hell. It is basically about that word "only" and how narrow this road really is.
Either you think John 14:6 is the indicator that Christ, God the Son is the ONLY way to salvation, NOT God the Father, no "excuses"
...or you think John 14:6 was Christ's way of saying He is God, and that going to God the whoever is still going to God and God is the ONLY salvation
So... which is it? I can't tell from some of the replies.
Actually, it does not have to be a "one or the other" statement. I fully believe that Jesus was meaning BOTH. He is the express image of the invisible God. He is the ONLY way to the Father. He is both saying that He is God and that you have to come through Jesus to get to God. There is no other road. All other paths to God are dead ends.....literally.
Re: Questions about John 14:6...
Are the people who lived before Christ came to earth in hell?
If not, then how can Christ be the ONLY way?
How does what Adam said "God will not hold anyone accountable for what they don't know" And what Kerrick said (regarding going to the Father INSTEAD, bypassing Jesus, means going straight to hell) both work together?
Something's got to give. Either Christ is the ONLY way and those who didn't deal directly with him (tribesmen, abortions, Adam, Noah, King David, etc.) are now in hell....
...or there are exceptions. One being God the FATHER IS also God the Son and Ghost, they're all the same. Then how is praying to / having faith in God different from praying to and faith in Jesus?
You can't have ONLY and EXCEPTIONS, because then only isn't really an only anymore.
If not, then how can Christ be the ONLY way?
How does what Adam said "God will not hold anyone accountable for what they don't know" And what Kerrick said (regarding going to the Father INSTEAD, bypassing Jesus, means going straight to hell) both work together?
Something's got to give. Either Christ is the ONLY way and those who didn't deal directly with him (tribesmen, abortions, Adam, Noah, King David, etc.) are now in hell....
...or there are exceptions. One being God the FATHER IS also God the Son and Ghost, they're all the same. Then how is praying to / having faith in God different from praying to and faith in Jesus?
You can't have ONLY and EXCEPTIONS, because then only isn't really an only anymore.
ThomasEversole- Holy Unblack Knight
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Re: Questions about John 14:6...
I think the verse isn't setting up Jesus as like a gatekeeper that you have to go through in order to get to the Father. The way I read it is that Jesus is the conduit of reconciliation between humanity and the Father. The only way to bridge the gap between us and the Father is through the Cross. That's my interpretation of that verse. Jesus is the instrument of reconciliation that makes it possible for us to come to the Father.
messiaen77- Holy Unblack Knight
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Re: Questions about John 14:6...
I recognize my viewpoint on this is different from what you are asking about, so I'm just telling you my take on this. When you read Hebrews 11 we read about people who were declared righteous because of their faith in God to fulfill his promises. That's essentially what Christ was--a promise from the Father to reconcile humanity to him. When we put our faith in Christ, what we are doing is trusting God to fulfill his promise to redeem us through Christ. Just because Christ was not physically present in the world during the days of Noah and Abraham and Moses doesn't mean that their faith in God was placed somewhere else. Honestly I think that the scenario you laid out in the OP--going to the Father instead of Christ--is either an impossibility given the interconnectedness of the Godhead or the kind of legal technicality that is completely incompatible with the character of God, i.e., legalism.ThomasEversole wrote:Are the people who lived before Christ came to earth in hell?
If not, then how can Christ be the ONLY way?
How does what Adam said "God will not hold anyone accountable for what they don't know" And what Kerrick said (regarding going to the Father INSTEAD, bypassing Jesus, means going straight to hell) both work together?
Something's got to give. Either Christ is the ONLY way and those who didn't deal directly with him (tribesmen, abortions, Adam, Noah, King David, etc.) are now in hell....
...or there are exceptions. One being God the FATHER IS also God the Son and Ghost, they're all the same. Then how is praying to / having faith in God different from praying to and faith in Jesus?
You can't have ONLY and EXCEPTIONS, because then only isn't really an only anymore.
There's also the belief that during the time between the Crucifixion and Resurrection that Jesus was in Sheol preaching to those who had died before so that they could be saved. Personally, I don't buy this even though it figures into many early Church creedal statements (including the Apostles' Creed). It sounds too much like Greek mythology and there is no real Scriptural support for it.
I can't address the second question because I didn't really understand what Kerrick was saying, but I don't seem to agree with what I think I understood of it, so I can't reconcile those positions.
As for your last question, Option B.
Man I miss these civil theological discussions.
messiaen77- Holy Unblack Knight
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Re: Questions about John 14:6...
It's civil because all parties involved in this conversation here go to Jesus for salvation anyway. ...it's just good to separate the wheat from the chaff on things like this. You never know who will ask.
I'd rather believe in the inclusive interconnectivity myself. Doesn't make sense that God the Trinity is God 3 in 1, but you have to pick the right head (even though they're one in the same God) or you're screwed.
Jesus is it, the Ghost and Father are dead ends, is a mindset that limits God. I can't fathom and omniscient, omnipresent God being useless to people when it comes to salvation.
To me, it's much easier to digest that when Christ said "I am the way" and "No man comes through the Father except through me", he was conveying more that He is God. ...not that there's some by-proxy setup where the Ghost and Father are little more than mentioned concepts and He (Christ) is the only conduit.
I'd rather believe in the inclusive interconnectivity myself. Doesn't make sense that God the Trinity is God 3 in 1, but you have to pick the right head (even though they're one in the same God) or you're screwed.
Jesus is it, the Ghost and Father are dead ends, is a mindset that limits God. I can't fathom and omniscient, omnipresent God being useless to people when it comes to salvation.
To me, it's much easier to digest that when Christ said "I am the way" and "No man comes through the Father except through me", he was conveying more that He is God. ...not that there's some by-proxy setup where the Ghost and Father are little more than mentioned concepts and He (Christ) is the only conduit.
ThomasEversole- Holy Unblack Knight
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Re: Questions about John 14:6...
ThomasEversole wrote:Kerrick wrote:ThomasEversole wrote:I guess I don't understand how you could agree with Adam's scripture, but not his comments of it. (He stated it's based on a default)
I *think* Adam is referencing Romans 1:20, which I've heard used to back up his claims before:
I dunno. I think Adam meant to reference the scripture he referenced. Heck, we could have ended the thread if he would have just left his post to one sentence. "God will not hold anyone accountable for what they don't know."Kerrick wrote:However, I do think it almost points to the opposite: that everyone is "without excuse" and therefore judged and condemned for not accepting Christ - whether they've heard His name or not.
Wow. So, being an aborted fetus must REALLY suck. Also being alive before Christ came to earth must also really suck. Doesn't matter if you lived before Christ, or in an isolated in the jungle your entire life or were murdered as a developed baby. No excuses. If you didn't accept CHRIST, then you will be denied.
I'm actually stunned that this is what you're proposing as "God's standard".Kerrick wrote:People who do not hear the gospel must be condemned, or else there is no motivation for evangelism.
Someone who's not motivated to evangelize has an excuse. Motivation has nothing to do with what's required.Kerrick wrote:Again, by human standards... yes. But I don't see that in Scripture and we have to go by it and not our emotions.Kerrick wrote:By whose standards is that jacked up? Yours or God's?
That works both ways there chief. Is it your standard or God's, to take this one verse (John 14:6) at 100% literal realtime face value today, irregardless to what other verses in the Bible say? I'm not flying on emotions here. I'm basing this on Christ's teachings. Here, let me help you out:
Luke 10:25-28 (NLT)
25 One day an expert in religious law stood up to test Jesus by asking him this question: “Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 Jesus replied, “What does the law of Moses say? How do you read it?” 27 The man answered, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind.’ And, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 “Right!” Jesus told him. “Do this and you will live!”
That clearly states you can have eternal life by going to God. Jesus said the answer was in Moses's law - well, Moses had no idea who Christ was because it was before his time. You mentioned no one hearing the gospel being granted mercy being a problem, its even more of a problem to assume a infinite loving, graceful Lord God is essentially worthless while we're a human here on earth. If everything is by proxy, through ONLY his Son even before He came to earth... then someone could still be saved if they told God the Father to eff off or tell Him he doesn't exist or that He's really the devil... ...as LONG as you have accepted salvation through His Son, you're good.
Right.
Allow me to quote Al from Home Improvement.
"I don't think so Tim."
For Adam's reference, he quoted a section of Scripture but began speaking on a related topic which when I hear people discussing that topic, they often reference the verse I mentioned. That's what I meant; sorry for the confusion.
I think you're putting words into my mouth here... As for unborn children, the general understanding of Matthew 18:14 is that they are indeed saved. I tend to agree and wasn't speaking about them. As for people before Christ, remember that they were held to the old covenant. After Christ, the new covenant. Maybe to try to bring it back to the immediate topic at hand... what I am suggesting is that if you reject Christ, you are not saved. (For the record, I agree with S6 about Christ saving the elect, etc...) Some claim that the god of the Muslims is the same God we Christians believe in. I disagree. So are Muslims saved? No, they reject Jesus' identity. Are Jews saved who reject Jesus as Savior? I don't believe so. That's what I'm getting at. Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father, through His death and resurrection. As was mentioned earlier, a bridge to salvation. And as for the tribe deep in the Amazon or wherever... I believe God chooses who are saved and He saves them - oftentimes using us. Reports of Jesus revealing Himself in dreams to people who have never heard of Him point to this being true.
I'm not sure what you're getting at with the "motivation" comment? I think maybe you're getting hung up on that one word and missing the overall picture that article is trying to convey. My understanding of that article is that if everyone who doesn't hear the Gospel is saved, Jesus' call to evangelism is dumb and actually harmful. Since we know Jesus isn't dumb or malicious... the only conclusion I can come to is that evangelism does serve a purpose.
For your last point... I think S6 summed it up pretty well:
sentient 6 wrote:The immediate context is about Jesus explaining that He and the Father are on the same level. That not only does His works prove that he was sent by God, but that He IS God in human flesh. Rejecting Him is the same as rejecting the works and will of God.
That said, here are some passages that will help with the big picture....
Christs great commission the the Apostles..
Matthew 28:18-20New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
Romans 10
11 The scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and is generous to all who call on him. 13 For, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
14 But how are they to call on one in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in one of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone to proclaim him? 15 And how are they to proclaim him unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” 16 But not all have obeyed the good news, for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ
Also, I believe scripture is clear that no son or daughter of Adam is seeking God, but God must seek them out and bring them into the Kingdom by the power of the Gospel. So I believe that God will reveal Himself accordingly to even to some lost tribe in some third world country. This is why missionary work is part of Gods will in the Great Commission.
....just some thoughts off the top of my head from my pov.
sentient 6 wrote:ThomasEversole wrote:
Do Christians really think people will get smacked into hell if they go to God the Father rather than God the Son? Really?
My personal view is that people are sent to hell for their sin and not for their rejection of Jesus Christ. But I also believe Jesus Christ bore the wrath against sin for elect only, and that we are either represented by Jesus Christ or we are represented by Adam. Being under Adam is bad and incurs Gods just punishment. Being under Christ is good, because the judgment for sin was placed on Him. I also believe that the gates of hell will be locked from the inside and not from the outside. After people are sent to hell, I believe those people will continue to sin and continue in the rebellion to God.
....little off topic but related non-the-less. Just my thoughts on the matter.
Everyone is deserving of eternal damnation due to our sin. So yes, I'd agree that we should be in sin because of our sin. If I understand correctly what you're saying, I'm in agreement there. As for hell being locked from the inside, I haven't studied it enough to comment there.
sentient 6 wrote:“Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. 20 For all who do evil hate the light and do not come to the light, so that their deeds may not be exposed. 21 But those who do what is true come to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that their deeds have been done in God.”Kerrick wrote:Does directly rejecting Christ =/= rejecting God the Father who sent Him?
...also, a study of John 17 would be very helpful to this topic as well.
Yup.
ThomasEversole wrote:The motive in this thread wasn't to break down salvation, heaven and hell. It is basically about that word "only" and how narrow this road really is.
Either you think John 14:6 is the indicator that Christ, God the Son is the ONLY way to salvation, NOT God the Father, no "excuses"
...or you think John 14:6 was Christ's way of saying He is God, and that going to God the whoever is still going to God and God is the ONLY salvation
So... which is it? I can't tell from some of the replies.
As with Alldat, I'm not sure they're necessarily exclusive.
Ok, time to go home. I've got a lovely wife and dinner waiting for me. Will try to write more later!
Kerrick- Tyrant
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Re: Questions about John 14:6...
For the record I believe it is the works of Christ ( perfect life and death ) that is basis of any Christian that is adopted into the Kingdom. And I believe people like Hitler will be in the Lake of Fire for the evil that he committed on this earth, and remain there because that is what he will wish to happen. If Hitler repented and turn from sin and turned to Christ, he would have a different eternity.New Creation wrote:Good works don't send you to Heaven and bad works don't send you to Hell.
....given the rules of the forum we can just agree to disagree form here.
sentient 6- Sacred Metal Prophet
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Re: Questions about John 14:6...
ThomasEversole wrote:
To me, it's much easier to digest that when Christ said "I am the way" and "No man comes through the Father except through me", he was conveying more that He is God. ...not that there's some by-proxy setup where the Ghost and Father are little more than mentioned concepts and He (Christ) is the only conduit.
Thomas, when you get time give some study and reflection on the book of Hebrews...
Hebrews 1:1-4New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
1 Long ago God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom he also created the worlds. 3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact imprint of God’s very being, and he sustains all things by his powerful word. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
sentient 6- Sacred Metal Prophet
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Re: Questions about John 14:6...
ThomasEversole wrote:
I'm not saying accepting the Father is the same as the Son, even if they are all for one. That's jacked up to think someone would go to hell just because they went to the wrong part of the trinity.
While Jesus Christ has been my direction regarding salvation, I don't believe God plays that hard to get, that someone would be crushed the same as if they denied God...
When someone says that they " believe " in God ( and therefore believes they are going to heaven ), you gotta ask more questions. Even the demons believe in God and know that there is one true God. If they describe something or someone other than what God has already revealed about himself ( through His Word ), then we should have concern for their eternal state. I know you may not agree with this example, but the JWs and Mormon god comes to mind as specific examples. Then you have people who say they believe in God, but then, live their life as if they didn't.
sentient 6- Sacred Metal Prophet
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Re: Questions about John 14:6...
John 10:7-10New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)messiaen77 wrote:I think the verse isn't setting up Jesus as like a gatekeeper that you have to go through in order to get to the Father. The way I read it is that Jesus is the conduit of reconciliation between humanity and the Father. The only way to bridge the gap between us and the Father is through the Cross. That's my interpretation of that verse. Jesus is the instrument of reconciliation that makes it possible for us to come to the Father.
7 So again Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who came before me are thieves and bandits; but the sheep did not listen to them. 9 I am the gate. Whoever enters by me will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
sentient 6- Sacred Metal Prophet
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Re: Questions about John 14:6...
Um, don't see how you guys are disagreeing.sentient 6 wrote:For the record I believe it is the works of Christ ( perfect life and death ) that is basis of any Christian that is adopted into the Kingdom. And I believe people like Hitler will be in the Lake of Fire for the evil that he committed on this earth, and remain there because that is what he will wish to happen. If Hitler repented and turn from sin and turned to Christ, he would have a different eternity.New Creation wrote:Good works don't send you to Heaven and bad works don't send you to Hell.
....given the rules of the forum we can just agree to disagree form here.
messiaen77- Holy Unblack Knight
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