Moral Scenario: What would you do? (regarding helping someone in secular metal)

I'm curious as to what you guys would do in this situation that fell into my lap a week ago.
There's a TL;DR version below if you guys don't "need" all the details to make a decision.
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So, I had an old acquaintance contact me out of the blue.  He runs a French underground black metal cassette label and has been around for almost 10 years with almost 1,000 catalog releases.  I've worked with him before with 4 of my releases (Ankou Awaits) and he's a friendly and reliable guy.

It was nice to hear from him again, but he was in dire straights.  His label's artist had some personal issues and wasn't able to fulfill the artwork formatting (important detail - formatting, not design) for 10 catalog releases.  He was almost to the point of BEGGING me for help.  He said that he wouldn't be able to pay me, but he would be very grateful and he also (very politely) stated that he would completely understand if I couldn't help him.

I'll also mention this, he knows I'm a Christian (and has since GRIM 1999) but he has said nothing "anti-Christian" to me.  (He released my Ankou Awaits which is "safe secular")  I requested to see if he would be interested in helping me with a cassette release for Orationem (which is Christian black metal) and he declined.  He said nothing personal, but he didn't think that music's "theme" would fit with the other releases he's had.  (which is true, it is underground French black metal)

Along with his request for help, he sent links to the artwork itself including a template to review.  I've got an old version of Photoshop 7 and it didn't take me long to realize that re-sizing/formatting the artwork to his template would be very EASY and not time consuming at all.  I know I've got a health condition that I could use as an excuse, but an honest inventory would say that I have PLENTY of free time and ability to work on this.

By the way, another important detail.  There's no lyrics to be read, but the band/song names have expected underground black metal themes.  Here's a couple song names from one release.  "Unholy Black Goat", "Ritual of Satanic Blood".  The artwork also has the expected upside down crosses, pentagrams, baphomets, you name it.

Last but not least, I wouldn't be affiliated/mentioned in the release notes.  They're already done, I'm just editing the images to fit his template, something that he doesn't have the ability to do and obviously needs help doing it.

Here's the TL;DR read version.

- A secular black metal record label owner needs help with artwork
- He cannot pay me for my time, it would just be a favor
- He said he'd understand if I declined (that's the out)
- He knows I'm a Christian
- He refuses to release Christian albums on his label
- He has never said anything "anti-Christian" to me
- The help he needs would be EASY for me to do
- I've got the time to do it
- I would NOT be affiliated as the artist as the artwork is already designed
- It's just a simple formatting job
- The band/song names and imagery appear to be satanic in nature

So, if you were in this scenario, would you help him?
...or would you decline?

Would you see doing this favor as "aiding the enemy" because of what the artwork/lyrics stands for?
Would you still feel affiliated even if you weren't listed in the credits?

...or, would you think that helping this man would be a form of general "paying it forward" doing something for someone else,
I don't have to take the artwork to heart
and perhaps this could help his view towards Christianity because I helped him as a Christian?

Please vote yes or no and explain why.
I've already voted, but I'll post my explanation later.
Thank you,

I voted yes.  You're in a unique position to help him out.  From the sounds of it, he's not trying to take advantage of a Christian and get free work out of you but rather is in legitimate need.  This is an opportunity to share God's love and live out the commands to help the needy.  And who knows, maybe he'll pass on the fact that a Christian helped with these releases to the satanic bands.

I would bet that the majority of the evil/satanic/anti-Christian bands out there are that way because a) it's "cool"/expected, b) they've focused on the historical evil that's been justified by incorrectly twisting God's Word, and c) they've had limited-to-no positive interactions with legitimate Christians.  This could help with reason 'c.'

Voted yes.

Imagine if one of the members (or THE member if there is just one) would once give a thought about changing the path he's walking on to a path for God, and he somehow would get to know that he's been helped by a Christian when he was doing his art, that could possibly be the final thing to get him to make up his mind.

When one person is about to take the decisive step across the line, every single experience with a Christian, where that said Christian has showed love in a way or another, counts big time.


However, if you REALLY feel in your heart that what you are doing is not ok, then don't do it.

Would you do it if it was Nazi/anti-Semitic "art"?  Or if its lyrics were insulting your own mother?  I think the answer is clear.

Jesus said to love your enemies. You need to ask Him for wisdom to decide what the loving thing in this situation would be. Personally I would help. I don't believe He would want us to turn our backs to someone because the subject matter is insulting to our Lord.

I voted no, this band is keeping souls from Christ, I dont think you are really overall effecting the release but I would not want to "help Satan" per say. Just in my case if I was asked, I would not want to give ammo to a murderer with a gun.

Headshrinker wrote:Jesus said to love your enemies. You need to ask Him for wisdom to decide what the loving thing in this situation would be. Personally I would help. I don't believe He would want us to turn our backs to someone because the subject matter is insulting to our Lord.

That is true

I think because of Thomas's past with this guy he shouldn't be offended if he does say no, with a valid excuse.

I hope no one takes this the wrong way, but I'm actually really glad the opinions here are divided.  Makes for some thought provoking discussion eh?  

I had to run some errands, but I was the first to vote "yes".  He had 10 to do, only asked me to do 2, I got those done, asked for 3 more...  long story short, I'll most likely get all of them done for him and he's happier than a fat kid at Christmas right now.

Temple of Blood wrote:Would you do it if it was Nazi/anti-Semitic "art"?  Or if its lyrics were insulting your own mother?  I think the answer is clear.

Yes I would still help if the artwork was anti-semitic.  Or any other type of obscene artwork - use your imagination.
...and if the songs were insulting my mother, I'd probably laugh while I was formatting them.

Hardcore Christian wrote:I voted no, this band is keeping souls from Christ, I dont think you are really overall effecting the release but I would not want to "help Satan" per say. Just in my case if I was asked, I would not want to give ammo to a murderer with a gun.

Like giving bullets to a gun wielding murderer?  I'm sorry, but that is horribly exaggerated and not accurate at all.  
If I went down to the local church Sunday, put one of these cassettes in the offering plate, I couldn't just stand back and watch people renounce their faith left and right as the upside down crosses and "Satan is awesome" song names just suck the faith out of people.

Contrary to underground black metal saying its war, its not.  ...its art.  
Contrary to Christians thinking black metal lyrics are only to convert Christians to the army of darkness, its not.  ...its art.
That's just what black metal is about, just like horror movies have blood spraying at some point.

If I'm scoring points for Satan because I'm clicking and dragging JPGs on a screen, well, I really helped out the army of evil when I helped that dude with Watain and Dark Funeral stickers on his car change a flat tire.  

Sorry bro.  I don't see it that way at all, and it doesn't make sense to me to only help Christians.

Hardcore Christian wrote:I think because of Thomas's past with this guy he shouldn't be offended if he does say no, with a valid excuse.

Hypothetically, if I were to deny helping because the artwork went against my faith, my excuse would have to be honest.  (or I could just be rude and not reply)  
I'm not about to have "selective honesty" regardless of the context.  "I don't have time", because "I have cancer" wouldn't be honest because I DO have time and I DO have the ability to do this for him.  

What BAD would come out of me refusing to help him because I didn't "agree" with his artwork?
He could see me as just another judgmental Christian and further resent me, all Christians or the Christian faith in general.
He could tell others of the experience.

Those both seem very real to me.

What GOOD would come out of me refusing to help him because I didn't "agree" with his artwork?
I'm not saving myself from damnation that the upside down crosses on my screen were about to drag me to.
I'm not dealing a crippling blow to Satan's army by refusing.

I legitimately cannot think of anything positive from refusing to help him.  

Headshrinker wrote:Jesus said to love your enemies. You need to ask Him for wisdom to decide what the loving thing in this situation would be. Personally I would help. I don't believe He would want us to turn our backs to someone because the subject matter is insulting to our Lord.

True.  How many people would NOT be saved if every Christian went running back to the safety of the choir if they encountered something anti-Christian or insulting to Christianity?

Airola wrote:
Imagine if one of the members (or THE member if there is just one) would once give a thought about changing the path he's walking on to a path for God, and he somehow would get to know that he's been helped by a Christian when he was doing his art, that could possibly be the final thing to get him to make up his mind.

True.  ...and while we're not exactly 2 e-mails away from him proclaiming his life to God, he KNOWS I'm a Christian and he KNOWS that the artwork he's asking help for goes against my beliefs.  ...but the fact I'm helping him with this despite that I'm sure speaks VOLUMES about my character and I can only see more respect for me and my beliefs.

It seems like you have already decided and don't really need our help.

As for voting, you left off three categories that would have gotten more votes:

1.  I don't really know what I would do unless the opportunity presented itself to me.
2.  Do what you feel the Holy Spirit leads you to do. 
3.  I don't care.

Yes, the last one seems harsh, but some folks are going to feel that way.  The two answers you gave as choices in the poll seem too black and white to me.

Kerrick wrote:I voted yes.  You're in a unique position to help him out.  From the sounds of it, he's not trying to take advantage of a Christian and get free work out of you but rather is in legitimate need.  This is an opportunity to share God's love and live out the commands to help the needy.  And who knows, maybe he'll pass on the fact that a Christian helped with these releases to the satanic bands.

I agree, and you know what else? If it was obvious he was just exploiting "the Christian" for free help, I would STILL help him with this. ...because helping someone helps the helper, not just the person being helped.

Here's a quick story.
Years ago, in my addiction, I stole multiple bottles of Listerine from a gas station to get drunk from after the liquor stores closed. (rough, I know)
When I sobered up, and wanted to make (financial) amends, and not hurt myself in the process (volunteer to go to jail), I decided to write an anonymous letter of explanation and include $30 cash.

Some people told me that was dumb to do because "some store employee would just pocket that cash".
To others, including myself, it ultimately didn't matter what happened with the money. I paid it back, sent it to the business I harmed, and it was because of that, I could heal.

I voted no and that's it

alldatndensum wrote:It seems like you have already decided and don't really need our help.

Sorry, I thought it was clear from my original post that I'd already voted and was posting the scenario out of speculation, not probing for guidance.

alldatndensum wrote:The two answers you gave as choices in the poll seem too black and white to me.

Intentionally black and white because it ultimately comes down to yes I'd help or no I wouldn't.
"Whatever the holy spirit leads me to do" could still be either yes I'd help or no I wouldn't. That's where the "why" of the post comes in to explain the heart.

Adding "I don't know" or "I don't care" doesn't make much sense to me. I don't see these options added to "Favorite 80's Metal Album" polls for people like me who don't even listen to those bands.
If this is the answer, then thanks for reading but don't vote.

I voted YES. Same reasons Kerrick gave!

Tough decision, man. I usually err on helping non-believers even if you indirectly help them do negative things. I think you should help the guy and in that way show your Christian love. As for the recording promoting evil...I can help you by praying it fades quickly into obscurity!  

Good on you for helping out a friend.  Action speaks louder than lyrics or corpse paint.

Friday13th wrote:Tough decision, man. I usually err on helping non-believers even if you indirectly help them do negative things. I think you should help the guy and in that way show your Christian love. As for the recording promoting evil...I can help you by praying it fades quickly into obscurity!  

LOL - reminds me of that Woods of Trees song (they're a joke black metal band)
...stating that trve kvlt black metal has to have cassette releases only, it will have to go out of print after 10 copies have sold to stay kvlt.  HAHA!!!  

As far as "doing negative things", I'd be really surprised if there was much thought in upside down crosses and baphomets from that scene anymore?  They're most likely desensitized from it.  I certainly am, and I don't even subscribe to their meaning.

Its weird how that (being desensitized) works.  

Myself, I've never had someone DIE right in front of me, but I'm sure if it happened, I'd be a little bit of shock on my part.  My wife on the other hand, who's a charge nurse on 7th floor ICU and has been a nurse for 10 years, someone dying in front of her is pretty much "just a bad night at work Wednesday".

I think I would not. He turned me down by not helping with my cassette release because it is Christian and he can't agree with that. And now he wants me to help him with something I can't agree with? Really?

I can't see a moral dilemma here. It's common sense: You help me, I help you, specially when it comes to things we can't actually agree over.
Perhaps I'd say Yes, I'll help you but please don't leave me hanging when I'm in need.

I don't know exactly . I find it difficult to support something that goes so strong against my convictions. Why would I support a cause that works against something I firmly believe in? And how will I benefit from something I wouldn't do myself because I believe it's wrong?

Why should I lend my HD-camcorder to someone who produces porn? It's some kind of proxy-sin, right?Yeah, I know, something like that doesn't exist but I think you get what I mean. Why would I give my car to somebody without drivers license? Why would I buy tickets to an R-rated movie for a 12 year old kid?

There are plenty of graphic designers he can hire. If the anti-christian art is selling so good why not hire somebody. For money. Don't give your god-given gifts to somebody who can't bring it over him to do something he believes to be stupid, wrong, whatever? Don't work against God while wielding tools given by god.

Okay, all that I wrote about is very theoretical. I think I'd help him out but as I wrote above, I'd ask him not to forget if I come and ask for help.And it'd be a one time favor.

This thread really illustrates one of the biggest things wrong in the church today.

It's hard to believe Jesus Christ would do anything like this.  Anyone care to disagree ?

alldatndensum wrote:It seems like you have already decided and don't really need our help.

Exactly

Darth Vader wrote:I voted no and that's it

I should've went with this

sadvader wrote:I think I would not. He turned me down by not helping with my cassette release because it is Christian and he can't agree with that. And now he wants me to help him with something I can't agree with? Really?

Thats another reason I didnt think of

Temple of Blood wrote:It's hard to believe Jesus Christ would do anything like this.  Anyone care to disagree ?

I care to agree

Temple of Blood wrote:This thread really illustrates one of the biggest things wrong in the church today.

It's hard to believe Jesus Christ would do anything like this.  Anyone care to disagree ?

 I completely agree.  Should we as Christians help someone out in a bind just because that shows them love?  I personally don't think so.  For one person that would think, "oh wow, that person helped me out, now I might be open to knowing Christians care about me", another person could think, "there is nothing different about my life and a Christians - why should I need to give Christianity a second thought?"  Or even worse they could think Christians are hypocrites and don't stand up for or follow their beliefs.  Many people might not agree with Christianity or want to follow it, but many at least respect people who give everything to Jesus - they respect that a person is willing to stay strong to their beliefs and convictions (and show love at the same time while doing it).  Declining to do this artwork is not unloving if you do it in a loving way.  This in fact could easily open up a means of sharing about your faith.  Basically that while you care about him deeply as a person, and want him to succeed in life, due to your dedication to Jesus, you can't perform what he is requesting.  That has just as much potential (and dare I say even more potential) to help someone see the truth found in Jesus than doing something as a favour. 

We are called to live our lives differently.  The world is supposed to see us as differently.  We should not blend in with the way the world does things because we are supposed to be separate from it.

Thomas I'm definitely not trying to be rude by any means when I'm saying this, and I am just sharing because I care.  But you yourself said you are desensitized to the culture of satanic black metal.  This should potentially be a red flag.  If you would do this for a CD promoting hatred of Jews or your Mother, that should also be a red flag.  There's no question about it - Satan tries to come in and desensitize us to sin.  He does it to me, and he does it to all of us.

The following Bible verse came to mind just as I was finishing this post, so I thought I would look it up:

"For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light  (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord.  Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them." (Ephesians 5:8-11)

I will pray for you Thomas that God will provide you with his wisdom and guidance on this.  Be blessed!

Temple of Blood wrote:This thread really illustrates one of the biggest things wrong in the church today.

It's hard to believe Jesus Christ would do anything like this.  Anyone care to disagree ?

I don't believe that it is a problem for Christians to have different opinions on matters such as this. Christian unity is not borne from interpreting matters of conscience the same, but a shared Lord & Saviour. I can see equal merit in both options.

Brother Thomas should be supported in whatever option he decides is right in this particular case. In another similar situation he may feel it better and more loving to say no.

Adding "I don't know" or "I don't care" doesn't make much sense to me. I don't see these options added to "Favorite 80's Metal Album" polls for people like me who don't even listen to those bands.
If this is the answer, then thanks for reading but don't vote.

I didn't vote.  However, it wasn't the "I don't care" option I would have chosen.  I would have chosen my number one:  I don't really know what I would do unless the opportunity presented itself to me.

As for the "I don't care" option, it gives people a chance to think that you have a sense of humor.  I shouldn't have to put "LOL" after everything I say to show just how much of a joke it is.  Seriously, who would vote?  Oh, on bands we might as there are styles that both of us like and those we detest.  You'd vote IDK for most 80s metal and I'd do the same on most forms of extreme metal.  Lighten up a little as the IDK was meant only as a funny option.

That's been the difficult situation at the CMR for the entire time I've been here.  People make almost every situation to be so cut and dry.  Your way or my way.  Your view ain't my view so you must be wrong kind of attitudes.  That's the danger of only two choices when, in the big picture, there is probably a lot more middle ground.

Anyway, I'm sticking with my "I don't know what I would do unless the opportunity presented itself to me" self-made option.

Good post alldat.

Headshrinker wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:This thread really illustrates one of the biggest things wrong in the church today.

It's hard to believe Jesus Christ would do anything like this.  Anyone care to disagree ?

I don't believe that it is a problem for Christians to have different opinions on matters such as this. Christian unity is not borne from interpreting matters of conscience the same, but a shared Lord & Saviour. I can see equal merit in both options.

Brother Thomas should be supported in whatever option he decides is right in this particular case. In another similar situation he may feel it better and more loving to say no.

Thank you!

Devon Hill wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:This thread really illustrates one of the biggest things wrong in the church today.

It's hard to believe Jesus Christ would do anything like this.  Anyone care to disagree ?

Thomas I'm definitely not trying to be rude by any means when I'm saying this, and I am just sharing because I care.  But you yourself said you are desensitized to the culture of satanic black metal.  This should potentially be a red flag.  If you would do this for a CD promoting hatred of Jews or your Mother, that should also be a red flag.  There's no question about it - Satan tries to come in and desensitize us to sin.  He does it to me, and he does it to all of us.

I know you're not being rude, and I do appreciate the concern.  I disagree though.
This wouldn't be different than me saying its a red flag to cower then run away when presented with an upside down "t" or a circle with a star in the middle.  

...which is also incorrect.

Devon Hill wrote:
The following Bible verse came to mind just as I was finishing this post, so I thought I would look it up:

"For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light  (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord.  Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them." (Ephesians 5:8-11)

sadvader wrote:Why would I support a cause that works against something I firmly believe in?

There's a huge difference between "supporting" "deeds" and "causes" of darkness, and helping someone with an art project.

Hardcore Christian wrote:

Darth Vader wrote:I voted no and that's it

I should've went with this

I completely understand and respect the decision of someone who wouldn't help in this situation - for any honest reason why.
...whether because of conviction or they just don't flat out want to do it.

...its a whole other can of worms though to allude that me helping him with this is morally wrong, being recklessly destructive to Christianity or I'm in danger of losing my faith because I would help someone with their art project.  

I will dispute that because that's not at all the case.

alldatndensum wrote:
As for the "I don't care" option, it gives people a chance to think that you have a sense of humor.  I shouldn't have to put "LOL" after everything I say to show just how much of a joke it is.

I welcome humorous responses pretty much anytime, even if I didn't initiate the humor.

Communication is so much more than just words though, and since we can't hear tone, see facial expressions / body language in text, there should be SOMETHING else to set the tone.  If I saw "I don't care" as a choice, I would think apathy, not humor.
Emoticons and even LOL help with this sort of thing tremendously.

If I made a post saying,
"Alldat, you're just a whiner and cause problems here.     "
...I think it would be clear that I didn't mean that sincerely.

Whereas, how could to tell I was joking if I made a post that said:
"Alldat, you're just a whiner and cause problems here."

alldatndensum wrote:
That's been the difficult situation at the CMR for the entire time I've been here. People make almost every situation to be so cut and dry. Your way or my way. Your view ain't my view so you must be wrong kind of attitudes. That's the danger of only two choices when, in the big picture, there is probably a lot more middle ground.

While I think there's a time and place for yes and no questions and people will differ on what those questions are, I fully 100% agree with you regarding the problem of Christians taking a "that's not what I would do, and because you're doing it, you're wrong" view.

While I presented the answer choices in black and white, the situation couldn't be more grey.

Someone saying "that's not what I would do but good luck with that" is a lot less invasive and polite.

I voted Yes and mirror much of what Kerrick posted. I also wanted to add that, the symbols you mentioned are only symbols and possess no real power, just what people give it.  While the inclination might be anti-christian, you would be as Kerrick said showing God's love and in a sense turning the other cheek. (as i would think while only symbols that they are offensive to Christians would be a slap to the face) Way I see it they are only symbols and have no power. Just my take