My 2 Cents

I thought I'd actually start a new thread, as it's off topic from the Trump/Carson thread.

For those who don't know - I'm seriously considering leaving this board. I figured you all deserved to know the truth of why that is.


Okay - before I officially leave ... I'm going to give my two cents.

For many years my family and I didn't have a good church to attend. We now have found a good church. But in the meantime we didn't have anywhere to call home.

I don't trust TV preachers at all because it seems they are out to get your money! But for some reason ... we started watching Joel Osteen and we felt ministered to. We watched him again ... week after week. And we felt like we were growing. We noticed that he NEVER once took up an offering or told anyone to send him money! This was different from other preachers we saw. We started to trust him.


I have learned SO much from Joel Osteen, I don't even know where to begin! He is like a personal pastor of mine! Even though I'm in Utah and he's in Texas. Before I had found a church home, Joel was my pastor and I still consider him to be! Personal attacks on him - are very personal to me! Is this whole board against my pastor???? Because if so ... that hurts. It also seems funny that Joel Osteen never talks bad about anyone - yet so many folks talk bad about him! That reminds me a lot of someone named Jesus.  



All he does is teach truth. Love. Peace. Joy. He focuses on positive things. And so do I! God is a POSITIVE and LOVING God! Not a negative bashing and Pharisee God!! Bashing others (especially men and women of God) is VERY dark and evil! Those who do such ... to me ... are the true Pharisees and are of their father the devil!!!!

So if you are going to judge me. Or my pastor (Joel Osteen), because I still consider him my pastor after all these years. Then I will leave this board and wipe the dust from my feet when I do.

If not. If there are any here who would tell me that they are NOT against me (or my pastor). Then I might stay. But I want to be upfront and honest. I believe in a GOOD God. I believe in Joel Osteen. And he is VERY different from most preachers. I don't trust most of them. I don't trust Kenneth Copeland and Creflo Dollar. But I do trust Joel Osteen as he is different from them.


I'm also very sad. Because when I came here to this board (thanks to the invitation of my very good friend, Aaron, whom I met years ago on another board) I began to think I had found a home online of sorts. Fellow believers who also loved Metal and other kinds of music. I had no idea that there was such hostility toward my pastor and the Word of God he teaches.



So .... please ... let me know. Should I stay or go? I don't want to cause problems for anyone here! I LOVE YOU GUYS!!! ALL OF YOU! I've began to make friendships here that could possibly turn into lifelong friendships. I'm saddened to think of losing all this.  



But I will listen to what you say. Please ... if you think I'm a heretic because I listen to Joel Osteen. There is no way I can hang around for the derision that follows such judgement.

Should you stay should you go? That's up to you brother. I believe in many things other people don't believe, I listen to music other people consider heretic, I do things some might consider sin, but I don't base my life on anyone's opinion, wether it is faith, music, lifestyle or whatever, I do what I do and it is all between God, myself, wife and my son.
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Now on the other hand, I see a great potential for this thread to turn in a theological discussion which is banned, if that happens I will lock the thread and I want to to know that it is not a measure against you but just me (or other mods/admins) inforcing the rules

God bless you brother.

RavenWolf wrote:Personal attacks on him - are very personal to me! Is this whole board against my pastor???? Because if so ... that hurts. It also seems funny that Joel Osteen never talks bad about anyone - yet so many folks talk bad about him! That reminds me a lot of someone named Jesus.

So .... please ... let me know. Should I stay or go? I don't want to cause problems for anyone here! I LOVE YOU GUYS!!! ALL OF YOU! I've began to make friendships here that could possibly turn into lifelong friendships. I'm saddened to think of losing all this.

I got hate for saying anything about Osteen when I first came to the board also.

I usually just avoid certain threads.

Anyway Im with you that I believe Osteen is a great pastor and teacher. It hurts me that many post about him and Joyce Meyers about being "false teachers" and the like.

I hope you dont stay as you have brought a great amount of new conversation to the board with you. I hope you consider me a friend, cause I do to you .

Don't worry about it man.  Apparently, what I listen to is cult music(Bethel, IHOP, Hillsong, you know, the good stuff and for the record, I don't necessarily agree with everything Hillsong related people say).
As a friend told me "There are two groups that are called cults: groups that are cults and groups that aren't.  We aren't."  I've seen enough miracles and heard enough from friends within my community to know I'm in the right, so I don't worry.
Everyone has their beliefs and in some way believe they are in line with Christ.  

My mom listens to the TBN crew and I will say, she prayed for a few big things and they did happen.  Will I ever listen to TBN?  No.  I hate the prosperity gospel with a passion and you should hear what my pastors say about it, but I digress.  And my roommate and I disagree about Joyce Meyers, but we don't argue over it at all.  And in the end, debate is good, as it says in Proverbs 27:17 "As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another."  I mention that verse for two reasons, the first being debating does make us think about what we say and what we think.  Looking at your age, I'm sure you're well adjusted to the idea that America is open to Christianity and living in the bastion of Joseph Smith has toughened you to some extent, yet I do not believe this will be it always which leads to the second point: I do truly, honestly, believe in we are going to see the end of the world within our lifetime(see this if you're interested in why and let me add, God told me I'll do His work within America at another time) and I do believe we need to become more refined in our beliefs and be able to talk to others about them without fear, full of conviction and able to adapt and change to a better understanding of our Lord Jesus Christ and God through a greater understanding of the Bible which He has blessed us with.

So, please, don't leave and don't take attacks on those you listen to as attacks on God or yourself.  Do be curious why these issues arise and whether you agree with the substance of them or not, be curious as to why they did arise in the first place and research it.  An example, last week, my roommate was shocked that Mike Bickle of IHOP had an incorrect belief and he had to sit down and think about this.  It was funny, but also fascinating to see someone who would dig in and try to better understand God and his Word.

KaramKaram wrote:I do what I do and it is all between God, myself, wife and my son.

truth

RavenWolf wrote:I thought I'd actually start a new thread, as it's off topic from the Trump/Carson thread.

For those who don't know - I'm seriously considering leaving this board. I figured you all deserved to know the truth of why that is.


Okay - before I officially leave ... I'm going to give my two cents.

For many years my family and I didn't have a good church to attend. We now have found a good church. But in the meantime we didn't have anywhere to call home.

I don't trust TV preachers at all because it seems they are out to get your money! But for some reason ... we started watching Joel Osteen and we felt ministered to. We watched him again ... week after week. And we felt like we were growing. We noticed that he NEVER once took up an offering or told anyone to send him money! This was different from other preachers we saw. We started to trust him.


I have learned SO much from Joel Osteen, I don't even know where to begin! He is like a personal pastor of mine! Even though I'm in Utah and he's in Texas. Before I had found a church home, Joel was my pastor and I still consider him to be! Personal attacks on him - are very personal to me! Is this whole board against my pastor???? Because if so ... that hurts. It also seems funny that Joel Osteen never talks bad about anyone - yet so many folks talk bad about him! That reminds me a lot of someone named Jesus.  



All he does is teach truth. Love. Peace. Joy. He focuses on positive things. And so do I! God is a POSITIVE and LOVING God! Not a negative bashing and Pharisee God!! Bashing others (especially men and women of God) is VERY dark and evil! Those who do such ... to me ... are the true Pharisees and are of their father the devil!!!!

So if you are going to judge me. Or my pastor (Joel Osteen), because I still consider him my pastor after all these years. Then I will leave this board and wipe the dust from my feet when I do.

If not. If there are any here who would tell me that they are NOT against me (or my pastor). Then I might stay. But I want to be upfront and honest. I believe in a GOOD God. I believe in Joel Osteen. And he is VERY different from most preachers. I don't trust most of them. I don't trust Kenneth Copeland and Creflo Dollar. But I do trust Joel Osteen as he is different from them.


I'm also very sad. Because when I came here to this board (thanks to the invitation of my very good friend, Aaron, whom I met years ago on another board) I began to think I had found a home online of sorts. Fellow believers who also loved Metal and other kinds of music. I had no idea that there was such hostility toward my pastor and the Word of God he teaches.



So .... please ... let me know. Should I stay or go? I don't want to cause problems for anyone here! I LOVE YOU GUYS!!! ALL OF YOU! I've began to make friendships here that could possibly turn into lifelong friendships. I'm saddened to think of losing all this.  



But I will listen to what you say. Please ... if you think I'm a heretic because I listen to Joel Osteen. There is no way I can hang around for the derision that follows such judgement.

You should stay because you add to the quality of the board, as I said before you have brought some good topics.
You should stay so you can learn to live in a world where others disagree with what you believe and learn how to get along with them.
You should stay because even if you are sure Osteen is OK and I and some others don't, it isn't a problem for me or anyone here.

You see, I never put you down in that thread or attacked you. I know you felt attacked, but you weren't. I hope you can see that now. There are people here that believe all kinds of things that I disagree with and over the years here I've been learning to discuss where we disagree and get along.

So, please don't feel uncomfortable here just because we disagree about Osteen, any other preacher, or even music. We can bring our opinions, tastes, and beliefs to the table rattle them around together and learn from each other without having to leave it so sad.


Also, if in the future you see me writing something disparaging about Osteen, please don't be surprised or take it personally. If the subject comes up and I decide to comment, that's what you'll hear from me. I do understand how you may find him different than the other and that is because he is insomuch as he doesn't push the seed-sowing prosperity crap like the others do. He isn't abusive like the others are. They are the ones that really irk me. I do still take issue with him as he presents a false gospel. If you don't believe me, don't get offended. Take the time to study it out and if you think I'm wrong and care enough, do me the favor of letting me know.

Again, this is a nice board and a great place to discuss music. Please don't leave on my account. You're welcome here in my book.

I don't want this to sound harsh, but is Joel Osteen really that big of a deal to leave forum over? It sounds like you've put him on too high of a pedestal, and really need to get your eyes off of him, and back on Jesus. There are a lot of pastors that I hold in high esteem, but anything bad said about them, is not a big deal in my view point.

Should it matter who your pastor is to us even if every one of us did not like him?  My pastor is unknown to most of you.  It would bother me if he were famous and everyone here trashed talked him.  However, I also am thick enough skinned to just not read that and just partake of what I want.

I wouldn't leave CMR just because people don't like Osteen.  No two of us here have the same tastes in music, movies, famous preachers, doctrine, etc.  That means that, if we are all allowed to speak freely about any topic brought up, we will sometimes be offended or feel like everyone is against us.  We need to be able to exercise love and just let it go.

As for Osteen, I have my opinions.  However, what I think of him means little to anyone else.  So, I keep those thoughts to myself.

I remain silent in threads that bash Osteen because I too think he has a positive and uplifting message with which I have no disagreements. I don't even read political threads because I just don't want to get involved in those kinds of discussions. Truthfully, I think you have to have thick skin to hang around metal fans because they can be sarcastic, opinionated, and prickly at times. I'm no exception but I'm just a bit more laid back maybe.

Feel free to lock this thread admins and mods.

It was never my intention to start a theological debate thread.

Thank you for the kind PMs I have received. If anyone wants to discuss this further with me via PM - please feel free! I'd gladly talk to any of you.

Also, I want to say thank you for the overwhelming support. I know not everyone here is going to like me or the 'denomination' I am a part of.  It's okay. But it's glad to know I'm not alone ... or even possibly in the minority with this issue. It's hard to know that beforehand ... since there is no such speaking of philosophical or theological things here. It's hard for me to understand why one can't discuss such things ... like mature men and women of God.

Anyway ... thanks again everyone. You are awesome!!!

I never meant to cause drama ... which is why I was going to leave silently. But I was emailing my good friend, Aaron and well ... we got to talking about this whole thing.

We are real people here with real lives. Emotional things are going to occur - even on a board. You can ban such things I guess.  

Anyway - I'd like to just move on and stay at this board cause I really do like it here.

deathisgain wrote:I don't want this to sound harsh, but is Joel Osteen really that big of a deal to leave forum over? It sounds like you've put him on too high of a pedestal, and really need to get your eyes off of him, and back on Jesus. There are a lot of pastors that I hold in high esteem, but anything bad said about them, is not a big deal in my view point.

Too late for that

everybody is different with different reactions what you might do might not be what I would Raven would do.So how can you judge him by saying hes put him on a pedestal? I can say the same thing about alot of people and Heavy Metal, the point is, everybody reacts and expresses themselves differently

I wouldn't leave CMR just because people don't like Osteen

Thats you. I probably would if i felt that strongly about something, as I have said to others once it stops being fun or so saturated in bs then I am gone not tolerating it anymore kinda mentality. Again everybody reacts and processes differently

Look, whatever.  I like having you guys around and I think you add quality to the board, but I understand that there are things that are non-negotiable and if this is one of those for you, then you need to act accordingly.  Understand that others feel just as strongly the opposite direction about Osteen and it is unrealistic and frankly unfair to expect them to keep their opinions to themselves just because they may upset you.

If you are going, then I wish you well and I thank you for the cool new (to me) tunes you introduced me to since you came.

Aaron C wrote:as I have said to others once it stops being fun or so saturated in bs then I am gone not tolerating it anymore kinda mentality.

I told that to me ex-wife too.

messiaen77 wrote:Look, whatever.  I like having you guys around and I think you add quality to the board, but I understand that there are things that are non-negotiable and if this is one of those for you, then you need to act accordingly.  Understand that others feel just as strongly the opposite direction about Osteen and it is unrealistic and frankly unfair to expect them to keep their opinions to themselves just because they may upset you.

If you are going, then I wish you well and I thank you for the cool new (to me) tunes you introduced me to since you came.

which is a perfect example why I am sure the theological discussions are not allowed personally i think political ones should be thrown in too.

d@v!d wrote:

Aaron C wrote:as I have said to others once it stops being fun or so saturated in bs then I am gone not tolerating it anymore kinda mentality.

I told that to me ex-wife too.

hehehe dont get me started on my ex-wife.....

Aaron C wrote:

d@v!d wrote:

Aaron C wrote:as I have said to others once it stops being fun or so saturated in bs then I am gone not tolerating it anymore kinda mentality.

I told that to me ex-wife too.

hehehe dont get me started on my ex-wife.....

       

Ravenwolf,

I know you and I got off on the wrong foot, something that had a lot to do with my lashing out because I bottled the grief of my grandmother passing...

You're a really solid guy with a good heart - I would be very disappointed if you left. The short time you've been here, you've already made yourself to be a pillar here... as far as I'm concerned.

I know at the time I made this thread, you didn't see what I saw...

...but I think now is a good time to revisit that.

I know in the Trump vs Carson thread, I pressed on not judging... but let me publicly state a few observations. There are several members here that have something in common with those who frequent atheist hives. (I was a member on Why Won't God Heal Amputees for a few months in 2009 as a Christian voice in the dark.)

Obviously the similarity between here and that community isn't beliefs.
Its the total lack of humility to LET SOMEONE BE WRONG.

See here, if you say something, ANYTHING, that an uber theologian disagrees with, you've got 9 consecutive posts from them CORRECTING you to their view. ...which is the right view of course.

I would bet my next paycheck check that if someone came here disputing Christ as Lord, there would be LESS rebuttal than if someone believed in Christ as Lord but disagreed with this or that doctrine.

Yeah, the lost need to find Christ but bring out the heavy artillery if your found and got the doctrine wrong!!!!!

Also, much like atheists on their forum, when you point out getting attacked, there's even more rebuttal. What's played is the "I'm just trying to have a civil conversation" card, perfect for absolving guilt and being cloaked from the mods.

Ravenwolf, bro, I see it. You see it. You are right to feel attacked because you were. Quite frankly, any 10 year old could read page 2 of the Trump vs. Carson thread and see that you and I were getting the once over by the CMR gank squad.

Anyone who has a problem with Joel Osteen needs to take it up with the millions of people who agree with his preaching - which is a pretty damn arrogant and entitled to think millions of people are completely wrong and there's not even the smallest smallest SMALLEST possibility that he's not a totally corrupt, give me your money, TV evangelist.

Its just sick I tell you.

I think what is starting to drive me away from this place, is a bunch of adults getting butthurt every time someone even hints at them being wrong and going on long posts about it. We can all agree that just because we are free, we can disagree. But this "rule" doesn't seem to help anyone in dealing with just that. The whole "I'm taking my toys and leaving" sounds like little kids. How are we to stand up to persecution from the world, if we can't stand a little correction (or disagreement) from our brothers?

Deathisgain,

No offense, but you seem a little cold hearted bro.

Christians are supposed to be loving and kind. Just saying ...

Thomas, thanks for your insight. I hope that the leadership at the CMR listens to what you are saying because it does make sense. There should be no hostility at an 'inter-denominational' board.

Or is this just a Baptist board?

deathisgain wrote:I think what is starting to drive me away from this place, is a bunch of adults getting butthurt every time someone even hints at them being wrong and going on long posts about it. We can all agree that just because we are free, we can disagree. But this "rule" doesn't seem to help anyone in dealing with just that. The whole "I'm taking my toys and leaving" sounds like little kids. How are we to stand up to persecution from the world, if we can't stand a little correction (or disagreement) from our brothers?

I'm sorry, it sounds like you're going to take your toys and leave because people are butthurt and taking their toys and leaving.
At least you would be leaving for more comical reasons?

I hate to say it, the persecution from the world is milder than the persecution here. I would brave (and have braved) saying I'm a Christian on a satanic black metal forum with less reserve and less attack

...than say here "Jesus Christ is my Lord and my beliefs are a variation of Universalism, which I concluded through teaching, logic and scripture." ...and they are.

If theological discussion was allowed and I posted my belief for discussion, I might as well wait for the slew of cattle prod wielding posters to brand me a heretic, a pagan, an ignoramus with their one to two verses holstered, eager to smash my "conclusion", no matter how close to God I feel with it, just to make sure I'M NOT WRONG.

DIG, Its not that its just disagreements here.
If the world thinks you're wrong for being a Christian, they insult you and quickly don't give an eff. Then its done.
Here, if you're wrong, you're browbeat from thread to thread to private message until you concede or want to stop reading.

I'm thinking that it's going to be getting better here though.

I hope so.