Re: Did you ever realize how much of the music you love just simply sucks?

by sentient 6 Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:07 pm

NoOneIsHere wrote:

Majority of the bands do it as a job because they love music. Not for the ministry. Some bands will try to justify their love of music by attempting to use it as ministry.

This can be true sometimes. You can tell the ones that see their music as a true evangelical tool when you see them give a clear proclamation of the Gospel. And I don't just mean in their music, but declaring it when they have the audience in front of them. Some bands hide it too much and I guess they hope people will figure out what their message is. And as a side note, some my not even be gifted to use their music in this way.

by sentient 6 Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:18 pm

NoOneIsHere wrote:
[Funny that I don't hold my movies to the same standard..how odd....oh well.. ]

Sometimes what the Holy Spirit tells is in conflict with what our flesh desires. The grip of this constant need to " entertain " ourselves is not lost on satan either. He'll use any tool in his bag to keep our eyes off our ever seeking of Gods Kingdom.

by sentient 6 Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:27 pm

alldatndensum wrote: Bands like Bon Jovi, Motley Crue, Ratt and a handful of others come to mind. Their first efforts were enough to get them out there and the labels/producers were able to turn them into something bigger.

Of those bands you listed, I personally like the first few albums better than the more commercial albums. Essentially what you are talking about in regards to producers is the process of turning bands into something commercial viable....turning them into a pop band. But when that's the case, you still need some raw talent to work with.

by Guest Sun Aug 16, 2015 2:12 pm

James B. wrote:
NoOneIsHere wrote:I said it before and I will say it again...

I don't need my music to "minister" to me.....I want my music to be clean and devoid of sex, drugs, alcohol, cussing, etc etc and come from people who have relatively the same beliefs I do
So you want it to encourage, edify, and uplift you ?

If so, that is what "minister" means.

You also stated "I saw first hand in the 80s how phoney the alter calls were that a lot of these bands did.....no thanks....I'll look elsewhere for my nourishment."

Why would an alter call be a source of nourishment for a believer ? That is something done for non-believers. That is a bold statement to judge the validity of one's heart, be it the one asking another to come forward and the one doing so. The act itself is a spiritual thing and assessing it on an outward observation gives the perception that God gave you the gift of some really powerful discernment.

Wow..talk about misreading what someone says.... Shocked

I never said or implied I was looking for my music to encourage, edify, and uplift me. Music to me is purely entertainment. Nothing more.entertainment can be simply something that kills time or puts a smile on your face. Don't need it to encourage or edify me, I just don't want to hear a bunch of crap about sex being forced on me like secular hair bands do.

And I never said or implied that altar calls were a source of nourishment for a believer. The statement by me about altar calls was to show how fake the scene was, thereby giving even more of a reason why I would never look to musicians to minister to me. If they were fake about that, why would I trust them about anything spiritual?

by Guest Sun Aug 16, 2015 3:05 pm

NoOneIsHere wrote:

Wow..talk about misreading what someone says....

I never said or implied I was looking for my music to encourage, edify, and uplift me. Music to me is purely entertainment. Nothing more.entertainment can be simply something that kills time or puts a smile on your face. Don't need it to encourage or edify me, I just don't want to hear a bunch of crap about sex being forced on me like secular hair bands do.

And I never said or implied that altar calls were a source of nourishment for a believer. The statement by me about altar calls was to show how fake the scene was, thereby giving even more of a reason why I would never look to musicians to minister to me. If they were fake about that, why would I trust them about anything spiritual?

If you are placing parameters on the content of entertainment, what is the purpose behind that ? To most I'd say it is due to not wanting to feed their spirit with crap...the old adage of "garbage in....garbage out". Even though you won't admit it, that in itself is a "form" of edification.

As to the "nourishment" comment, you yourself stated the phony alter calls were cause for you to look elsewhere for that, correct. Thus why I commented as such. To place some context on the subject, say what you perceived to be fake actually had "ONE" person come into God's Kingdom due to that performance ? What if that "ONE" person answered the call out in the foyer or in the parking lot outside, away fro your view ? That in itself makes it worth while and gives it "VALUE" in God's Kingdom. If your goal was just to be entertained, perhaps that is why you have the attitude and belief that you do ? It sucks that you only got to see the fake side of things, I personally know 100's of people to this very day who received Christ due to music ministries and are still serving Christ almost 30 years later.

by Guest Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:25 pm

I never said any such thing about me looking to get anything from the alter calls.

I just said it was an example of the falseness of their message.

by Believer12 Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:07 am

grandeped wrote:Everyone's opinion of what is bad or good is going to be different. I never found Irish to be that good, but Tempest had something about them that I liked (even if not perfect).

I remember Tempest I didn't think they were that bad either but I get were the poster is coming from. I remember buying anything I could get my hands on just because it had the Christian Metal label on it. It was such an oddity back then and so new at least to me. But I remember going through a lot of it realising this is junk! Xalt and Stryken come to mind for me anyway. Not trying to disrespect anyone's favorites

by Believer12 Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:15 am

eatbugs wrote:
metaldude wrote:One of the things that was really lacking in the 80's, mostly on the Christian side, was good producers.

What he said.

There's a lot of my 80's and 90's Christian rock and metal collection that doesn't sound as good as their mainstream counterparts. There are exceptions of course but in manycases it's not musical talent but production that's the problem.

I agree with that totally. I've often wondered if a band like Stryken or Philadelphia had a better production budget if they would be more listenable. A Ramones release had better production than their stuff

by Guest Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:36 am

Back to the opening question: no, the only that truly sucks is the thread title and its inane, hypothetical question.

by alldatndensum Mon Aug 17, 2015 6:55 am

I've been thinking about the original question. To be honest, I knew that some of my old music sucked but still love it because of the raw passion. It is some of my NEWER music that I have noticed sucks. The over-compressed sounds, lack of guitar solos or a soloist who doesn't know how to make a solo to fit a song, poor vocals, forgettable riffs, etc. I am noticing that I am listening to less and less modern stuff that, because of the aforementioned issues, all just blends together and sounds the same to me.

by Guest Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:23 pm

Neal Morse Code wrote:Back to the opening question: no, the only that truly sucks is the thread title and its inane, hypothetical question.

Then be quite and move on if you don't like it ..pretty simple really. No one forces you to read a thread if you don't like it,
that's one of the great things about forums. Lots of topics and lots of opinions....you don't need to agree or like them all.

by Guest Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:29 pm

alldatndensum wrote:I've been thinking about the original question. To be honest, I knew that some of my old music sucked but still love it because of the raw passion. It is some of my NEWER music that I have noticed sucks. The over-compressed sounds, lack of guitar solos or a soloist who doesn't know how to make a solo to fit a song, poor vocals, forgettable riffs, etc. I am noticing that I am listening to less and less modern stuff that, because of the aforementioned issues, all just blends together and sounds the same to me.

Exactly, alldat.

For years I knew a lot of the stuff I listened to was pretty bad in terms of production, vocals, musicianship, etc etc...I kind of always just ignored it and continued listening. Just kind of woke up one day and asked why I was fooling myself..lol

I don't know why, to be honest. Whether it was because I was SUPPOSED to like due it being that it was Christian, or because I was so desperate to have an alternative to the Motley Crue type bands that I forced myself to listen to it..I don't know.

I have found that my tolerance is getting lower for it though.

A lot of new music in this genre is just the same ol same ol too.

Of course, I get the fact that after awhile all originality is gone just because there is only so much that can be done within one genre. That is natural, I guess.

by Guest Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:36 pm

JPK72 wrote:I had a friend who would buy everything, just because it was Christian Metal, saved me a lot of money because I knew what albums not to buy

Regretfully, I was THAT person... Razz

Anything that came out...any demo I saw advertised in a fanzine...

That was me... lol

by eatbugs Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:12 pm

NoOneIsHere wrote:
JPK72 wrote:I had a friend who would buy everything, just because it was Christian Metal, saved me a lot of money because I knew what albums not to buy

Regretfully, I was THAT person...

Anything that came out...any demo I saw advertised in a fanzine...

That was me... lol

Guilty!

I think some friends of mine saved some money that way too.

Two other points:
I'm one of those people who has a conviction to only listen to Christian or "Christian-friendly" music (it's a personal/Holy Spirit thing I don't hold anyone else to, but I have it) and especially pre-YouTube it was hard to judge talent based on an ad in a fanzine. So unless I took risks I would only have been able to listen to the same few bands over and over again.

There's also the issue of collectors. Some of you have enough money to collect Christian metal like others might collect stamps or coins. I would be like that too if I made enough money to justify it financially. This means an album gets bought regardless of talent.

by Guest Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:37 pm

NoOneIsHere wrote:
Soldier777 wrote:I edited the my post above. In continuing with various bands, I can see when some people said they were into a certain band or album like Messiah Prophet or Bloodgood and after not listening to it for years and picking up and listening to it again recently - it don't have that same novelty. I don't take that necessarily as bands not being good, but perhaps we grow out of bands that we were once into. I find that when I got back into Saint around 2004 and started buying their CDs, I wondered about the "cheese factor" of their music and stage performance - even thought it is more modest, low key than their secular peers. Then you look at Judas Priest and Iron Maiden and I think - Saint is no less cheesy then these guys. Even on the same album like Time's End, I wonder a song like Primed and Ready is subpar but Steel Killer is outstanding and brilliant. Now, I think Time's End is a great album. Basically, I go through a mental roller coaster when I think an album is as good as the secular music of the same style.

Yeah, I like Saint and have all of their albums...but I never really thought Josh had a great voice and the early music was never top notch. I still liked them...mostly due to them being Christian and not having a lot of choices....but they could never hold a candlestick talent-wise to Judas Priest or Iron Maiden. Never.

A lot of it is just that many of us always felt that Christian bands were like a part of our family...so we didn't hold them to the same standards as we would for an "outsider" (secular).

Even back in the 80s, certain Christian artists that we consider great I was embarrassed of when my friends heard them because they were so weak vocally compared to bands like Ratt, Motley, Def Leppard, Maiden, etc etc. Bands like Jerusalem, Daniel Band, Bride, Saint, these are all bands that I loved but were viewed to be a lot better by myself (and a lot of Christians) than they really are.

It isn't due to them singing about Christ that kept them from being more popular with the mainstream, which is what Christian fans will try and tell you, it was talent, or actually a lack of talent...pure and simple. Stryper proved that you could sing about Jesus and still achieve mainstream success.

I couldn't disagree more.

Using your examples, every time I listen to Saint, I always wonder what do they lack in comparison with Maiden and Judas Priest. The only answer I can find is that both Maiden and Priest were pioneers in their styles. Besides that, maybe their financial resources for album production and distribution were much better. But just it. I always end these kind of comparison by thinking how some bands can be overrated.

I am a BIG fan of Stryper, but that is a great example of overrated band in christian metal. They are undoubtedly the most famous christian band out there, even though you can find, at least, a dozen christian bands that are much better than Stryper is.

The quantity of sales doesn't match how good the band is. It is not that logical.

by Blake Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:43 pm

While there are some bad ones out there, I dont think production quality is a fair judgment of music quality. I think production quality and music quality are two different things altogether.

If the only reason a band "sucks" is because of less than stellar sound production and mastering then one may need to re-evaluate their "metalhead" title. Now I can think of at least a handful of bands that have music that is indeed atrocious, but I have also heard bands who have God awful production but great music (raw BM anyone?)

by Guest Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:56 pm

NoOneIsHere wrote:
Neal Morse Code wrote:Back to the opening question: no, the only that truly sucks is the thread title and its inane, hypothetical question.

Then be quite and move on if you don't like it ..pretty simple really. No one forces you to read a thread if you don't like it,
that's one of the great things about forums. Lots of topics and lots of opinions....you don't need to agree or like them all.

Unless you're a mod, don't restrict my freedom of speech. If you come out swinging at folks and they swing back, don't whine about it.

Try a little tact next time. It works much better.

by Guest Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:07 pm

Neal Morse Code wrote:
NoOneIsHere wrote:
Neal Morse Code wrote:Back to the opening question: no, the only that truly sucks is the thread title and its inane, hypothetical question.

Then be quite and move on if you don't like it ..pretty simple really. No one forces you to read a thread if you don't like it,
that's one of the great things about forums. Lots of topics and lots of opinions....you don't need to agree or like them all.
Unless you're a mod, don't restrict my freedom of speech. If you come out swinging at folks and they swing back, don't whine about it.

Try a little tact next time. It works much better.

Whatever dude...no one made a comment about you since I was never a fan to begin with, so it didn't really concern you.

Again, if you don't like a topic, stay out.

And telling you to go pound sand isn't whining. Get a dictionary and look it up.

by Guest Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:12 pm

Thiago-Brazil wrote:
NoOneIsHere wrote:
Soldier777 wrote:I edited the my post above. In continuing with various bands, I can see when some people said they were into a certain band or album like Messiah Prophet or Bloodgood and after not listening to it for years and picking up and listening to it again recently - it don't have that same novelty. I don't take that necessarily as bands not being good, but perhaps we grow out of bands that we were once into. I find that when I got back into Saint around 2004 and started buying their CDs, I wondered about the "cheese factor" of their music and stage performance - even thought it is more modest, low key than their secular peers. Then you look at Judas Priest and Iron Maiden and I think - Saint is no less cheesy then these guys. Even on the same album like Time's End, I wonder a song like Primed and Ready is subpar but Steel Killer is outstanding and brilliant. Now, I think Time's End is a great album. Basically, I go through a mental roller coaster when I think an album is as good as the secular music of the same style.

Yeah, I like Saint and have all of their albums...but I never really thought Josh had a great voice and the early music was never top notch. I still liked them...mostly due to them being Christian and not having a lot of choices....but they could never hold a candlestick talent-wise to Judas Priest or Iron Maiden. Never.

A lot of it is just that many of us always felt that Christian bands were like a part of our family...so we didn't hold them to the same standards as we would for an "outsider" (secular).

Even back in the 80s, certain Christian artists that we consider great I was embarrassed of when my friends heard them because they were so weak vocally compared to bands like Ratt, Motley, Def Leppard, Maiden, etc etc. Bands like Jerusalem, Daniel Band, Bride, Saint, these are all bands that I loved but were viewed to be a lot better by myself (and a lot of Christians) than they really are.

It isn't due to them singing about Christ that kept them from being more popular with the mainstream, which is what Christian fans will try and tell you, it was talent, or actually a lack of talent...pure and simple. Stryper proved that you could sing about Jesus and still achieve mainstream success.
I couldn't disagree more.

Using your examples, every time I listen to Saint, I always wonder what do they lack in comparison with Maiden and Judas Priest. The only answer I can find is that both Maiden and Priest were pioneers in their styles. Besides that, maybe their financial resources for album production and distribution were much better. But just it. I always end these kind of comparison by thinking how some bands can be overrated.

I am a BIG fan of Stryper, but that is a great example of overrated band in christian metal. They are undoubtedly the most famous christian band out there, even though you can find, at least, a dozen christian bands that are much better than Stryper is.

The quantity of sales doesn't match how good the band is. It is not that logical.

Vocals and songwriting are the biggest areas that I always felt that most Christian bands took a back seat to secular bands.

Like I said, I always loved Saint. But I think it is an injustice to Halford to compare the two. Just like Mike Lee is no Bruce Dickinson..not even close....and yet I am a BC fan and not a Maiden fan.

I think Christians tend to judge "Christian" artists with a lot of bias and make them out to be better than they actually are.

Bands like Stryper and Whitecross are definitely two bands I think have / had the talent to compete against anyone. Just not many like them.

by Candlemass Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:46 pm

I'll take some Saint lp's over a few Priest offerings any day! I certainly don't think Josh is a better singer than Rob, but it's no injustice to compare the two. As for "Rattcross"...

by metaldude Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:03 pm

NoOneIsHere wrote:Vocals and songwriting are the biggest areas that I always felt that most Christian bands took a back seat to secular bands.

I disagree on the vocalists. Michael Sweet and Dale Thompson both have distinct sounding voices, as does Glenn Kaiser, who I think has a great blues voice. Another unique voice was Guy Ritter. Who knows what would have happened had he not left music altogether. If we're going to criticize Mike Lee for sounding like Bruce Dickinson, then we have to criticize every singer who hits a high note for imitating Rob Halford. Or was Halford imitating Mercury? Or were they all imitating Plant?

by Friday13th Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:27 pm

Mike Lee is a Dickinson knock off, bro. It's not like one person just came up with this comparison. People notice all the time. Plant is also less original than he's given credit, though he does have a good variety of styles. This is proof though. "Whole Lotta Love"...er..."You Need Loving" by the Small Faces.

Ian Gillan is another great, but no one touches Halford imo. The guy from Saint doesn't sound like Halford (not half as good anyway) so I agree that comparison is kind of silly.

by Guest Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:42 pm

NoOneIsHere wrote:
Neal Morse Code wrote:
NoOneIsHere wrote:
Neal Morse Code wrote:Back to the opening question: no, the only that truly sucks is the thread title and its inane, hypothetical question.

Then be quite and move on if you don't like it ..pretty simple really. No one forces you to read a thread if you don't like it,
that's one of the great things about forums. Lots of topics and lots of opinions....you don't need to agree or like them all.
Unless you're a mod, don't restrict my freedom of speech. If you come out swinging at folks and they swing back, don't whine about it.

Try a little tact next time. It works much better.

Whatever dude...no one made a comment about you since I was never a fan to begin with, so it didn't really concern you.

Again, if you don't like a topic, stay out.

And telling you to go pound sand isn't whining. Get a dictionary and look it up.

How about taking your douchebag cyber-bullying and shove it instead?

If you don't like your topic questioned, maybe you need to learn to zip it.

Internet tyrant--go grab your thesaurus and look it up.

by Guest Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:46 pm

Neal Morse Code wrote:
NoOneIsHere wrote:
Neal Morse Code wrote:
NoOneIsHere wrote:
Neal Morse Code wrote:Back to the opening question: no, the only that truly sucks is the thread title and its inane, hypothetical question.

Then be quite and move on if you don't like it ..pretty simple really. No one forces you to read a thread if you don't like it,
that's one of the great things about forums. Lots of topics and lots of opinions....you don't need to agree or like them all.
Unless you're a mod, don't restrict my freedom of speech. If you come out swinging at folks and they swing back, don't whine about it.

Try a little tact next time. It works much better.

Whatever dude...no one made a comment about you since I was never a fan to begin with, so it didn't really concern you.

Again, if you don't like a topic, stay out.

And telling you to go pound sand isn't whining. Get a dictionary and look it up.
How about taking your douchebag cyber-bullying and shove it instead?

If you don't like your topic questioned, maybe you need to learn to zip it.

Internet tyrant--go grab your thesaurus and look it up.

Go away loser man...

I've already had several people who have messaged me asking what your problem is, but we know you have always been like this.

I have no problems with someone questioning my opinion, but blowhards like you who come in for no other reason but to post BS need to just go..far far away.

Hit the street, man

by Guest Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:58 pm

metaldude wrote:
NoOneIsHere wrote:Vocals and songwriting are the biggest areas that I always felt that most Christian bands took a back seat to secular bands.

I disagree on the vocalists. Michael Sweet and Dale Thompson both have distinct sounding voices, as does Glenn Kaiser, who I think has a great blues voice. Another unique voice was Guy Ritter. Who knows what would have happened had he not left music altogether. If we're going to criticize Mike Lee for sounding like Bruce Dickinson, then we have to criticize every singer who hits a high note for imitating Rob Halford. Or was Halford imitating Mercury? Or were they all imitating Plant?

Not criticizing Lee, at all. I was actually criticizing the fans who try and put him on the same level as Dickinson. Saying they have a similar style is one thing, saying he patterns himself after Bruce is one thing, saying he is anywhere near as good is another..IMO. And I actually LIKE Barren Cross. I am just being real.

Dale Thompson's voice got better as he got older. His voice on the early stuff, which is what I was referring to, I think was vastly overrated.

Like I said, it was actually embarrassing to see how my friends reacted to some of these Christian metal bands...not due to lyrical content..but due to the way they sounded. Yet I kept listening, like the good little Christian should do. I was blinded into thinking I shouldn't expect the same level of musicianship from a Christian band as I would a secular band....that because they are Christian they are automatically worthy of listening too.

Kaiser had/has a great voice....I will never take a shot at his voice..ever...
Plus the dude is just cool.

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