Reformed Rock Bands

Temple of Blood wrote:Gobbledygook music and theology go hand-in-hand.  Both are products of a gobbledygook mind.

So the guys from TQT and Deliverance that went apostate were because of gobbledygook music? This is a pretty ignorant thing to say, kind of dumbfounding actually,  style of music is not why people believe heresy and you can find it in every style.

Yeah sorry to be the bearer of bad news y'all... (As far as I know, Jason's still quite orthodox in his beliefs and I believe writes most/all the lyrics anyways.)

And while my heart sank reading Seth's comment and I completely disagree with him... I don't think his stance is really that different than what most Arminians believe. It's just that he put it much more bluntly/succinctly than you typically hear. If I understand correctly, he's suggesting that because a) God is good and b) "bad" things happen, it must be man's own "free will" that causes those bad things, not God. And since God can't cause those bad things to happen, they occur outside of His sovereign control. The end result of this thinking is open theism.

Kerrick wrote:Yeah sorry to be the bearer of bad news y'all...  (As far as I know, Jason's still quite orthodox in his beliefs and I believe writes most/all the lyrics anyways.)

And while my heart sank reading Seth's comment and I completely disagree with him... I don't think his stance is really that different than what most Arminians believe.  It's just that he put it much more bluntly/succinctly than you typically hear.  If I understand correctly, he's suggesting that because a) God is good and b) "bad" things happen, it must be man's own "free will" that causes those bad things, not God.  And since God can't cause those bad things to happen, they occur outside of His sovereign control.  The end result of this thinking is open theism.

I don't wanna turn this into a theology debate, but no, that's not at all what Arminians believe. Classical Arminians believe that God remains in control, even if such control is not understood deterministically. You can browse the Society of Evangelical Arminians website or pick up some books on Arminian theology. I recommend Jacob Arminius: Theologian of Grace. You'd be shocked how "Calvinistic" Arminius was. Now many uneducated non-Calvinists today might believe like Seth, but that's not what Arminianism teaches. Calvinists have been notoriously bad about misrepresenting Arminianism; go to the source. 

I apologize if that comes across harshly! But just as Calvinists are weary of their beliefs being misrepresented, so should they rightly represent Arminians. 

What Seth says is even beyond open theism. (And I think open theism is heterodox and borderline heretical). Seth's statement is closer to process theology.

Problem in, if God's not in control deterministically, the door is open for Him having to learn. He either ordained all that will happen or He didn't. Not fighting, just saying.

Black Rider wrote:Problem in, if God's not in control deterministically, the door is open for Him having to learn. He either ordained all that will happen or He didn't. Not fighting, just saying.

The problem is, if God’s control is deterministic, there’s no logical way for him not to be the author of evil. 

But I don’t wanna turn this into a debate. The best thing is to read the sources on both sides and compare them to Scripture.

FWIW, I’m not a classical Arminian, either.

To clarify, I believe that God ordains all that happens. But I believe God’s permission is involved, not just his causation.

One more point to annoy everyone:

Classic reformed theology was not uniformly deterministic. Just an interesting observation.

Pethead wrote:

Kerrick wrote:Yeah sorry to be the bearer of bad news y'all...  (As far as I know, Jason's still quite orthodox in his beliefs and I believe writes most/all the lyrics anyways.)

And while my heart sank reading Seth's comment and I completely disagree with him... I don't think his stance is really that different than what most Arminians believe.  It's just that he put it much more bluntly/succinctly than you typically hear.  If I understand correctly, he's suggesting that because a) God is good and b) "bad" things happen, it must be man's own "free will" that causes those bad things, not God.  And since God can't cause those bad things to happen, they occur outside of His sovereign control.  The end result of this thinking is open theism.

I don't wanna turn this into a theology debate, but no, that's not at all what Arminians believe. Classical Arminians believe that God remains in control, even if such control is not understood deterministically. You can browse the Society of Evangelical Arminians website or pick up some books on Arminian theology. I recommend Jacob Arminius: Theologian of Grace. You'd be shocked how "Calvinistic" Arminius was. Now many uneducated non-Calvinists today might believe like Seth, but that's not what Arminianism teaches. Calvinists have been notoriously bad about misrepresenting Arminianism; go to the source. 

I apologize if that comes across harshly! But just as Calvinists are weary of their beliefs being misrepresented, so should they rightly represent Arminians. 

What Seth says is even beyond open theism. (And I think open theism is heterodox and borderline heretical). Seth's statement is closer to process theology.

Fair enough!  No need to apologize.  I grew up in an Arminian home/churches and have a good friend with whom we discuss theology regularly - and am basing that comment on those personal experiences which I acknowledge don't encompass the whole of that belief system.  It usually comes down to God knowing all things will happen (and the ability to intervene - which maybe is the piece I was missing above) but is not actively willing all events to happen.  But yeah, that's all saved best for another thread!

Kerrick wrote:

Pethead wrote:

Kerrick wrote:Yeah sorry to be the bearer of bad news y'all...  (As far as I know, Jason's still quite orthodox in his beliefs and I believe writes most/all the lyrics anyways.)

And while my heart sank reading Seth's comment and I completely disagree with him... I don't think his stance is really that different than what most Arminians believe.  It's just that he put it much more bluntly/succinctly than you typically hear.  If I understand correctly, he's suggesting that because a) God is good and b) "bad" things happen, it must be man's own "free will" that causes those bad things, not God.  And since God can't cause those bad things to happen, they occur outside of His sovereign control.  The end result of this thinking is open theism.

I don't wanna turn this into a theology debate, but no, that's not at all what Arminians believe. Classical Arminians believe that God remains in control, even if such control is not understood deterministically. You can browse the Society of Evangelical Arminians website or pick up some books on Arminian theology. I recommend Jacob Arminius: Theologian of Grace. You'd be shocked how "Calvinistic" Arminius was. Now many uneducated non-Calvinists today might believe like Seth, but that's not what Arminianism teaches. Calvinists have been notoriously bad about misrepresenting Arminianism; go to the source. 

I apologize if that comes across harshly! But just as Calvinists are weary of their beliefs being misrepresented, so should they rightly represent Arminians. 

What Seth says is even beyond open theism. (And I think open theism is heterodox and borderline heretical). Seth's statement is closer to process theology.

Fair enough!  No need to apologize.  I grew up in an Arminian home/churches and have a good friend with whom we discuss theology regularly - and am basing that comment on those personal experiences which I acknowledge don't encompass the whole of that belief system.  It usually comes down to God knowing all things will happen (and the ability to intervene - which maybe is the piece I was missing above) but is not actively willing all events to happen.  But yeah, that's all saved best for another thread!

No problem. I didn’t mean to sound like I was attacking you! 
Yeah, everyone’s experience is different and it colors how we understand things.
I just want to make sure we are fair to one another, including Seth, who appears to be a heretic.

Acts says that it was ordained they kill Jesus but they are still held responsible for their actions.  Here's a good article about this.https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/evil-gods-providential-rule

Black Rider wrote:Acts says that it was ordained they kill Jesus but they are still held responsible for their actions.  Here's a good article about this.https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/evil-gods-providential-rule

I love Ligonier’s stuff. I agree it was ordained. I disagree it was caused deterministically.

Ordained in God's world is deterministic. He said and determined it would happen, right?

Black Rider wrote:Ordained in God's world is deterministic. He said and determined it would happen, right?

Define determinism.

Also, funny coincidence, but I was using my original Reformation Study Bible for teaching last night.

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/gods-determination

And then I'm out so I don't get in trouble with The Merrick.

Black Rider wrote:https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/gods-determination

And then I'm out so I don't get in trouble with The Merrick.

I’ll bow out too. I too fear the Merrick. 

FWIW, I like a lot of reformed theology. (If you like Ligonier’s stuff, I recommend reading Nichol’s biography of RC Sproul). 

Interesting discussion, though.

Back on topic, does anyone know Demon Hunter’s, specifically Ryan Clark’s, theology?
(I hope I don’t regret asking…)

Pethead wrote:Back on topic, does anyone know Demon Hunter’s, specifically Ryan Clark’s, theology?
(I hope I don’t regret asking…)

I still submit that both deciphering someone's theology through lyrics and/or expecting clear orthodoxy in order to listen is problematic and filled with pitfalls. I've always expected to disagree with Ryan's theology, if it was ever clearly stated. Ryan has opened a few clear windows that haven't always jived with my thinking. I still listen to Demon Hunter. The trouble for me is the personal conversation that really gets at the core of where someone's head and heart are truly at is always missing.

I'll never say it is important. There are bands I don't listen to. I just know if I were consistent to listen to only what I 100% agreed with I'd have to have a solo project. Even then, 5yrs after I released an album I may not be able to listen to myself. 

Frozen Fire wrote:

Pethead wrote:Back on topic, does anyone know Demon Hunter’s, specifically Ryan Clark’s, theology?
(I hope I don’t regret asking…)

I still submit that both deciphering someone's theology through lyrics and/or expecting clear orthodoxy in order to listen is problematic and filled with pitfalls. I've always expected to disagree with Ryan's theology, if it was ever clearly stated. Ryan has opened a few clear windows that haven't always jived with my thinking. I still listen to Demon Hunter. The trouble for me is the personal conversation that really gets at the core of where someone's head and heart are truly at is always missing.

I'll never say it is important. There are bands I don't listen to. I just know if I were consistent to listen to only what I 100% agreed with I'd have to have a solo project. Even then, 5yrs after I released an album I may not be able to listen to myself. 

Oh, I agree. I was just curious because DH's lyrics are often kind of obscure. 

But I agree with listening to artists one disagrees with. There's no other way. The way I can still benefit from Christian artists with problematic theology is reminding myself that God spoke through both Balaam, a false prophet, and his donkey. God can speak truth through those with whom we disagree. Truth is truth. Plus, I filter out problematic theology when I read; I do the same thing with music.

Of course, I'd love for more Christian bands to write more straightforwardly biblical lyrics like Bob Hartman.

Frozen Fire wrote:

Pethead wrote:Back on topic, does anyone know Demon Hunter’s, specifically Ryan Clark’s, theology?
(I hope I don’t regret asking…)

I still submit that both deciphering someone's theology through lyrics and/or expecting clear orthodoxy in order to listen is problematic and filled with pitfalls. I've always expected to disagree with Ryan's theology, if it was ever clearly stated…

 Well, everyone starts in the negative with him, I guess.

I'm sorry. I couldn't resist.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not a Calvinist and I disagree with that view. I'm don't agree with arminianism either. No matter what theory is being used to describe how God reaches people - that is the proper word or for lack of a better word as it cannot be fully proven. Salvation is a mystery and like understanding matters like the trinity or that God never has a beginning, we can never fully understand these and other concepts.  Not to cause a fuss - I don't see a purpose of this thread. As a free speech advocate, resume as normal and continue to discuss freely based on the original question. 

To answer the original question - I don't think you can know what view the band holds form the lyrics - at least from the 60-75 or so bands in my collection. For many bands I think you would need to ask them directly or see if they posted something on line on the matter.