What "killed" traditional metal?

Ok, not that it's dead, there are still plenty of bands coming out in that genre today, but this was brought up in an older thread, it seemed by the mid/late-80s, the only metal that was gaining any traction in the scene were either pop-metal acts (which by that point had gotten more and more on the pop side and were less heavier than the 82-85 stuff) or thrash bands, interest in traditional metal was waning. Stuff like Grim Reaper, Helloween, Savatage, and Manowar, while considered legends by the fans, never quite broke on the level of Priest, Maiden, Dio, or Ozzy. Now granted, I wasnt a big metal fan back then (more of a casual one who liked the poppier bands like Def Leppard), but I've read enough metal magazines and other material from that period of time. What caused the interest to wane? Did metal fans see "Turbo" as a betrayal and wanted heavier material? Did the execs want to cash in more on pop-metal's mainstream acceptance and refuse to sign bands along that line?

Well, you are actually asking a few different questions within the one paragraph.
They do sort of tie together but it also depends on the band (more on that later).

One part of the answer of what happened to traditional metal back then was simple:  T-h-r-a-s-h.    Once thrash hit the scene it gained rabid popularity very, very quickly.  I was there, and was heavily involved in the journalism side of the underground metal scene that was exploding back then.   Traditional / NWOBHM / Straight-ahead metal was largely pushed to the wayside and ignored for quite a while.  Except for the bigger bands like Maiden, Priest, Dio, etc. that had already developed a large following. 

Many worthy USPM or traditional metal bands that got signed out of the underground at that time did not do nearly as well as they or the record companies had hoped.  Because based on the bands' demos, fans wanted and expected something harder and faster.  Such was the case with Metal Church, Vicious Rumors, Black N' Blue, Malice, Armored Saint, and a few others.  However a band like Queensryche did well because they were immensely popular in Japan and Europe, plus they distinguished themselves from the pack with their 2nd album which was less power metal and more prog metal, which was basically something new.

There were also cases where the record companies just did not know how to market a band properly.   Sometimes the band weren't quite pop or glam metal but they were also not thrash, and maybe they were more cerebral musically than other bands.  So here you had bands like Warlord, Virgin Steele, Hawaii, Culprit, Jag Panzer, Icon, Sanctuary, Pretty Maids, 220 Volt, Illusion, Anthem, Cities, King's X, Galactic Cowboys, Obsession, Liege Lord, etc. 

Some bands had cheesy album covers that turned people off even though the music was good - Fates Warning, Attacker, Predator, etc.

Some bands had a gimmick and were easier to market, like Lizzy Borden or Wasp - it also helped that their music was well-written and catchy.  Other bands with a gimmick did not do as well, like Crimson Glory or Halloween.

Savatage did not do as well initially for a few reasons:  1)  They were not thrash,  2) the vocals were not to everyone's liking, and 3) Women found their songs and images too creepy and did not like them (so the story goes).   And then when the record company pressured Savatage to do that pop album "Fight For The Rock," that hurt their fan base, who thought the band had sold out.

And like you said, around this time there was a wider market for the pop / glam metal.    So some bands went into that direction to see if that would help their sales, while others tried to go into thrash or even death metal (which was also becoming very popular).  The band Europe for instance hit big when they dropped their neo-classical euro-metal for a more streamlined pop metal sound.  Or Twisted Sister, Def Leppard, Night Ranger, Whitesnake, or Great White, who started out as heavier bands but went commercial and hit it big.  

Not all bands that went commercial did well with it though - like Vow Wow, B*tch, Celtic Frost, Virgin Steele, Fifth Angel, Icon, Steeler, 9.0, etc.    Some had moderate success like Leatherwolf, Omen or Fates Warning, but nothing big.  

On the opposite side of things, bands like Hades, Laaz Rocket or Griffin went from U.S. power metal to thrash, to disappointing lack of success.  Hexx went from power metal to thrash and then to death metal, and went nowhere.  But a few others actually got heavier and became a huge success, like Pantera, Dream Theater, Slayer, and Iced Earth.

Eventually both the thrash and pop metal scenes become over-saturated and very redundant.  Really good bands (like XYZ, Cry Wolf, etc.) went nowhere because there were just too many bands doing similar things, even if not as well.  Then, grunge hit the mainstream and tanked most of the hard rock scene.  Some metal bands tried to do the grunge thing in the 90's to stay afloat - with varying degrees of success or artistry.  

Another thing in the 90's that diverted attention from traditional metal or even thrash or pop metal was "alt" metal and funk metal.  Bands like Helmet, Fear Factory, Ministry, Tool, Type O Negative, RATM, Primus, Gwar, Danzig, White Zombie, Faith No More, Living Colour, etc. felt more edgy to the younger generation and the metal fans who had grown tired of the same-old-same-old from the bands that had dominated the scene for so long.  


Death metal however did not really hit it's stride until the early 90's, so while it was never a big seller, it nonetheless stayed very relevant during this time period, although it definitely never became mainstream.  It also greatly expanded during this time, taking on progressive and jazz influences.   

Black metal was also growing in influence and popularity during the 90's, but most of the bands and their scenes were in Scandinavia and Europe.  

In the 90's the traditional / power / prog. metal scene basically migrated to Europe, and the European metal scene did pretty well.  But the secret there is that do not have rigid categories or fickle fans like we had in America.  In Europe there was an appreciation for all types of hard rock and metal, from gothic to pop to progressive to rap metal.   Bands like Stratovarius, Conception, Grave Digger, Saxon, Therion, Moonspell, Nightwish, Rammstein, Stuck Mojo, and many others all did pretty well but their sales were mostly overseas.

Metal never died but it did go under the radar in America, and it never regained the immense popularity that it had during it's heyday in the early to later 80's.   Guns N' Roses gave the scene a big shot in the arm in 1988, but that just led to a slew of imitation bands which further bloated the hard rock scene and made it easier for it to fall when grunge hit.  

I do not think we will ever see a time like the early to late 80's because back then metal was fresh - it was all new to most people.   It was cutting edge.  Metal music had started out basically formulaic and sort of turgid, but before too long it was changing, growing, pushing boundaries.    It incorporated punk, hardcore, pop, electronica, gothic, rap, etc. and created many interesting hybrids.  Today most metal and hard rock is better produced but honestly there is not much new that you haven't heard before.  It is simply no longer as subversive or as novel as it was back then, at least for those of us who have been around awhile and have seen where it began and where it is now.

WildWorld wrote:What caused the interest to wane?


Did metal fans see "Turbo" as a betrayal and wanted heavier material? Did the execs want to cash in more on pop-metal's mainstream acceptance and refuse to sign bands along that line?

One thing I can remember is that everytime I saw a metal t-shirt in '86 during school, it was thrash.  It was usually Megadeth and sometimes Slayer.  If you were a real cretin, headed straight to juvie hall, then you wore a Venom T.  My high school was highly integrated, so not a lot of metal fans going on.

The interest in metal waned possibly because of Quiet Riot totally being on every radio station, then Twisted Sister was all over MTV.  They had two videos that were played as much as Michael Jackson.  Before that Crue and Priest had Shout and Screaming, which got people into the movement.  It was underground before that.  Maybe it became old hat by the time '86 rolled around and thrash was the fuel that fed the need of adrenaline junkies and rebellious teens.  Regular metal ran it's business cycle and chicks would rather go for pop-oriented bands with that ballad single.

One thing's for sure:

You have a very low concept of musicality when you are coming of age unless musically inclined.  That age drives the market for rock (13-19).  I couldn't grasp how technically brilliant Maiden, Priest, and Randy Rhoads were until I was in my 20's.  Just because the metal was good, didn't mean it would catch on.  People mostly follow trends.

I didn't know how much Priest fans hated Turbo until the internet happened.  I was pretty much the only Priest fan I knew in high school and was too naive to realize how pop Turbo was.  I was just coming out of Jr. high when it came out.

I liked Turbo at the time, especially side B (back when there was such a thing...).  There were a few songs on side A that I disliked and thought were obvious attempts at airplay like Locked In and Rock You All Around the World.  The title track to me is just a good song and has some strong guitar parts riffing along with Rob and the solo is cool.

I searched for apologies or an explanation from Rob on Turbo the other day, but could find none.

Dang Constantine, you nailed it, nice writing.

Thanks for reading it - I could have made it much longer but I thought, hardly anyone's going to read it as it is, haha 

You guys made a lot of great points.

I have a lot to say here too and will try to contribute if I get time.

My thoughts on what killed it?  It wasn't all the various styles.  It was the labels themselves.  They oversaturated the market with bands they hoped would make it big instead of focusing on quality acts that could deliver the goods.  While metal fans didn't mind, a lot of decent bands ended up not making the money for the labels that they wanted as they were never really "star" quality anyway.  So, the labels went in search of something rock based and started pushing those (grunge, alternative, etc.) until that market was oversaturated, too.

Now, except for smaller specialty labels, the mass market music industry doesn't care for rock/metal at all and looks for cheap to make pop & rap stars.

Interesting topic, and great answers. Maybe as a European I can give a different perspective but since I only got into metal in 2008 I won't write down too much at the risk of being ridiculous.

The 90s happened here just like in the US, and except for some very rare exceptions metal never reached that popularity of the 80s. Of course the traditional metal revival led by Hammerfall had a very big impact, immediately followed by what I consider the golden days of power metal (Rhapsody's third album even made it to number 4 of the Dutch rock charts!). But yeah, as you said even Helloween never made it to that kind of stardom. Maybe Sabaton is doing good these days, but that's also very much pop metal inclined.

On a more national level things can be really interesting though. For some reason Germany is a good country to play traditional metal. Maybe the fact that copyright protection is so insanely strong here plays a role. You mentioned Japan of course which follows an entirely own path when it comes to this. And as you may know we have more than 50 countries in Europe, and lots and lots of different languages between them. There are bands that are very big in for example Hungary or Spain that most of us have never heard of and usually sing in their native language. Last year I discovered a Spanish folk metal band that I found really good and when I looked up their facebook page they had already 30k followers which isn't that spectacular in itself, but since it was so much up my alley I would have known about them if they operated internationally. And they're hardly the only band like that.

EDIT: Internet knows what's up in this thread. The page I got after I posted were advertisements for a few CDs, among them was Screaming for Vengeance

Andreas89 wrote:Last year I discovered a Spanish folk metal band that I found really good and when I looked up their facebook page they had already 30k followers which isn't that spectacular in itself, but since it was so much up my alley I would have known about them if they operated internationally. And they're hardly the only band like that.

What is the name of the band?   Christian band?  I listen to music in languages I don't know, it's all good.

They're called Lèpoka. They're not christian sadly but their latest album is a joy to listen to. It's called El Baile de los Caídos and I can recommend to be in a place where dancing is possible when you listen to it the first time.

Interesting.   They sound Celtic.  
I know there is some connection between Ireland and Spain, but the details are unclear.

That's terrible, the guy wasted most of the beer.

A focus on videos/visuals over songs has to be one of the biggest problems.

Constantine wrote:Well, you are actually asking a few different questions within the one paragraph.
They do sort of tie together but it also depends on the band (more on that later).

One part of the answer of what happened to traditional metal back then was simple:  T-h-r-a-s-h.    Once thrash hit the scene it gained rabid popularity very, very quickly.  I was there, and was heavily involved in the journalism side of the underground metal scene that was exploding back then.   Traditional / NWOBHM / Straight-ahead metal was largely pushed to the wayside and ignored for quite a while.  Except for the bigger bands like Maiden, Priest, Dio, etc. that had already developed a large following. 

Many worthy USPM or traditional metal bands that got signed out of the underground at that time did not do nearly as well as they or the record companies had hoped.  Because based on the bands' demos, fans wanted and expected something harder and faster.  Such was the case with Metal Church, Vicious Rumors, Black N' Blue, Malice, Armored Saint, and a few others.  However a band like Queensryche did well because they were immensely popular in Japan and Europe, plus they distinguished themselves from the pack with their 2nd album which was less power metal and more prog metal, which was basically something new.

There were also cases where the record companies just did not know how to market a band properly.   Sometimes the band weren't quite pop or glam metal but they were also not thrash, and maybe they were more cerebral musically than other bands.  So here you had bands like Warlord, Virgin Steele, Hawaii, Culprit, Jag Panzer, Icon, Sanctuary, Pretty Maids, 220 Volt, Illusion, Anthem, Cities, King's X, Galactic Cowboys, Obsession, Liege Lord, etc. 

Some bands had cheesy album covers that turned people off even though the music was good - Fates Warning, Attacker, Predator, etc.

Some bands had a gimmick and were easier to market, like Lizzy Borden or Wasp - it also helped that their music was well-written and catchy.  Other bands with a gimmick did not do as well, like Crimson Glory or Halloween.

Savatage did not do as well initially for a few reasons:  1)  They were not thrash,  2) the vocals were not to everyone's liking, and 3) Women found their songs and images too creepy and did not like them (so the story goes).   And then when the record company pressured Savatage to do that pop album "Fight For The Rock," that hurt their fan base, who thought the band had sold out.

And like you said, around this time there was a wider market for the pop / glam metal.    So some bands went into that direction to see if that would help their sales, while others tried to go into thrash or even death metal (which was also becoming very popular).  The band Europe for instance hit big when they dropped their neo-classical euro-metal for a more streamlined pop metal sound.  Or Twisted Sister, Def Leppard, Night Ranger, Whitesnake, or Great White, who started out as heavier bands but went commercial and hit it big.  

Not all bands that went commercial did well with it though - like Vow Wow, B*tch, Celtic Frost, Virgin Steele, Fifth Angel, Icon, Steeler, 9.0, etc.    Some had moderate success like Leatherwolf, Omen or Fates Warning, but nothing big.  

On the opposite side of things, bands like Hades, Laaz Rocket or Griffin went from U.S. power metal to thrash, to disappointing lack of success.  Hexx went from power metal to thrash and then to death metal, and went nowhere.  But a few others actually got heavier and became a huge success, like Pantera, Dream Theater, Slayer, and Iced Earth.

Eventually both the thrash and pop metal scenes become over-saturated and very redundant.  Really good bands (like XYZ, Cry Wolf, etc.) went nowhere because there were just too many bands doing similar things, even if not as well.  Then, grunge hit the mainstream and tanked most of the hard rock scene.  Some metal bands tried to do the grunge thing in the 90's to stay afloat - with varying degrees of success or artistry.  

Another thing in the 90's that diverted attention from traditional metal or even thrash or pop metal was "alt" metal and funk metal.  Bands like Helmet, Fear Factory, Ministry, Tool, Type O Negative, RATM, Primus, Gwar, Danzig, White Zombie, Faith No More, Living Colour, etc. felt more edgy to the younger generation and the metal fans who had grown tired of the same-old-same-old from the bands that had dominated the scene for so long.  


Death metal however did not really hit it's stride until the early 90's, so while it was never a big seller, it nonetheless stayed very relevant during this time period, although it definitely never became mainstream.  It also greatly expanded during this time, taking on progressive and jazz influences.   

Black metal was also growing in influence and popularity during the 90's, but most of the bands and their scenes were in Scandinavia and Europe.  

In the 90's the traditional / power / prog. metal scene basically migrated to Europe, and the European metal scene did pretty well.  But the secret there is that do not have rigid categories or fickle fans like we had in America.  In Europe there was an appreciation for all types of hard rock and metal, from gothic to pop to progressive to rap metal.   Bands like Stratovarius, Conception, Grave Digger, Saxon, Therion, Moonspell, Nightwish, Rammstein, Stuck Mojo, and many others all did pretty well but their sales were mostly overseas.

Metal never died but it did go under the radar in America, and it never regained the immense popularity that it had during it's heyday in the early to later 80's.   Guns N' Roses gave the scene a big shot in the arm in 1988, but that just led to a slew of imitation bands which further bloated the hard rock scene and made it easier for it to fall when grunge hit.  

I do not think we will ever see a time like the early to late 80's because back then metal was fresh - it was all new to most people.   It was cutting edge.  Metal music had started out basically formulaic and sort of turgid, but before too long it was changing, growing, pushing boundaries.    It incorporated punk, hardcore, pop, electronica, gothic, rap, etc. and created many interesting hybrids.  Today most metal and hard rock is better produced but honestly there is not much new that you haven't heard before.  It is simply no longer as subversive or as novel as it was back then, at least for those of us who have been around awhile and have seen where it began and where it is now.

Wow, that's a real tour de force of a post. Thanks for that! I read about this era a lot and, as someone doesn't care much for thrash metal, black metal, etc., but loves traditional metal and power metal, I've often pondered this question. Thanks again.