"Good Soil and Seeds" Bands

Kerrick wrote:
So Thomas, even if you think it "ridiculous," consider that there are those of us who would see a "Christian album" from someone who later apostatizes to have never truly been a "Christian album" (whatever that may be... but I think you get what I'm saying?).

No no no,

Look at where that ridiculous was in my post.  What's ridiculous is Christian people and albums getting this extra layer of judgement discernment after being shaken around the theology jar, while secular music gets an unlimited free pass.

Do not be afraid for He is risen
All authority has been given to Him
Worship Him, and only Him
Jesus Christ, the Almighty

He was your human sacrifice

"Yeah, well that can't be edifying anymore because Roger Martinez left the faith."
or
"Yeah, well we're doing a list of currently edifying people or bands so anything by Vengeance Rising wouldn't qualify at all."

Torches blazed and sacred chants were praised
As they start to cry hands held to the sky
In the night the fires are burning bright
The ritual has begun, Satan's work is done

666 the number of the beast
Sacrifice is going on tonight

"Yeah, well Iron Maiden never claimed to be a Christian band so I can't expect them to act Christian."
or
"Yeah, well all their songs aren't like that.  I avoid that one."
or
"No no no, you're taking that out of context....  what he means is..."

It just seems like cherry picking bias galore, with our own faith's people/bands/music closer to the chopping block than people/bands/music that don't even resemble faith at all.  

That was what my "ridiculous" was for.

Kerrick wrote:I don't believe that a bad tree can bear good fruit in the godly sense of "good" (now, there's that common grace so of course an unbeliever could help a granny across the street and that'd be good in a worldly sense, etc.).  Does that help in making sense of where some of us are coming from Thomas?

What you said here makes perfect sense, but it still doesn't clear up why you're asking for a list of currently edifying Christian metal artists, and their currently edifying bands.  

Ok...  so what if I don't want to sift through lives to see if people are righteous, but I want sift through music and message for righteousness?  

I mean, as Christian metal listeners, we eat the fruit, not the fruit trees...

Dude, he wanted to encourage people by pointing out people that have held firm in the faith, it's a good thing. You don't like it, move along.

Oh gotcha Thomas.

Well to your Vengeance Rising / Iron Maiden comparison... it's pretty simple in my mind.  To use an analogy, let's say you go to a standup comedian on Saturday and then church on Sunday.  It'd be silly to hold both the comedian and the pastor to the same standards regarding content for obvious reasons.  I don't see music as being too different.  (For the record, I really hardly ever listen to Maiden anymore and find myself much more consistently drawn to Christian music more and more.)  And where I'm at personally, I wouldn't go listen to a standup comedian whose jokes were all foul and sexual, though I might go to a relatively "clean" secular one for entertainment.  Again, same for music.  So I think it's unfair to suggest that the secular realm gets a free pass since there is a certain amount of vetting...  Is it that unreasonable that people like me might listen to Christian/secular music for different reasons (with some overlap of course) and thus hold those musicians to different standards when it comes to choosing which music to buy?  Or is it just the standards themselves that you have issue with?

Hey, if you are edified and encouraged by listening to VR, great!  Praise God.  But for those who feel uneasy about listening to them... why not just let them be?  (Romans 14:21)  Frozen Fire brought up Ravi Zacharias which I considered doing too, and I think he'd be a useful example here.  I'm sure he has preached and written a lot of truth, though after his death it became apparent that he was living a double-life and was likely not in actuality a believer.  Now some folks might continue listening to his old sermons and whatnot because there's much to glean from them.  Others might opt to avoid those sermons.  I wouldn't condemn either if they're keeping clear consciences.

I do think we're getting hung up on the "edifying" and "encouraging" aspects.  Those are just examples I came up with, but I realize folks choose to listen to Christian music for a variety of reasons.  But I've given a few reasons and tried to explain why I started this thread in a couple different ways now and you're still asking why; Thomas, is it that I'm not clear enough and need to explain further or are you just in disagreement?  I realize that conveying my thoughts over text is not my strongpoint... but it seems that maybe it's more the latter than the former?

Black Rider wrote:Dude, he wanted to encourage people by pointing out people that have held firm in the faith, it's a good thing. You don't like it, move along.

Dude, clearly I'm upset and have some questions and concerns. If you don't have an answer for me, move along.

ThomasEversole wrote:It sounds like its case by case for Christian metal.  Secular metal is on your table because its entertainment.  Christian metal is on your table, unless the author doesn't live according to your feelings, then everything they've touched that you have is reduced to gathering dust.

Since the same genre of music gets a totally different standard depending on people's beliefs/lives and the music's lyric themes, I can only imagine the level of scouting involved to see if something Christian is worthy of being canceled or not.

I never said any of my Christian Metal CDs gather dust because they have a member that lost faith! 

The Tourniquet albums with Gary Lenaire have always been my favorites and I listen to them somewhat frequently. I still like my Vengeance Rising albums! Please don’t tell me I put them on the shelf. My assessment was not a condemnation. It’s just a thought on this topic. Don’t let my thoughts upset you. I’m not telling you how to think. Just do your thing!

Kerrick wrote:Hey, if you are edified and encouraged by listening to VR, great!  Praise God.  But for those who feel uneasy about listening to them... why not just let them be?  (Romans 14:21)

I would never try to police people's convictions. My upset was never about any list or recommendation anyone made here, or that you were trying to compile a list of currently righteous bands.

Kerrick wrote:I think it's unfair to suggest that the secular realm gets a free pass since there is a certain amount of vetting...

You're right. I'm wrong about my free pass remark - it was a clear emotional exaggeration from me. But I'd still say it seems a completely different set of vetting rules for things Christian in comparison to secular. It rings more for inconsistency than it does unfairness.

Kerrick wrote:Well to your Vengeance Rising / Iron Maiden comparison... it's pretty simple in my mind.  To use an analogy, let's say you go to a standup comedian on Saturday and then church on Sunday.  It'd be silly to hold both the comedian and the pastor to the same standards regarding content for obvious reasons.  I don't see music as being too different.

That's a great example. But I'd like to point something out with that particular analogy.

You wouldn't sift through the comedian's life to see how it corresponds to his jokes, but you would sift through the pastor's life to see how it corresponds to his sermons.

The difference between you and I, I don't sift through people's lives looking for things to judge them OR THEIR STUFF over. I'm not a judge, and you aren't either.

If a joke is funny, I laugh. I don't hold my laughter until I correspond it to a comedian and then what I think of the comedian depends on if I laugh or not.

If a sermon hits my heart, then it hits my heart. I'm not going to stalk a pastor's social media to see if there's something I can find he said 7 years ago so I can use that to invalidate within myself the message I just heard.

If I run into a new Christian metal lyric video that has a message that really speaks to me, I don't search through months of interview statements and online activity first, just to have a reason to not add it to my current playlist.

People sin. People lose faith. People also repent.

Jokes, songs and sermons don't do any of that, so it's bizarre to see them lumped together in the same judgment bundle. (hence my inanimate object rant before that apparently only I understood)

Kerrick wrote:Thomas, is it that I'm not clear enough and need to explain further or are you just in disagreement?  I realize that conveying my thoughts over text is not my strongpoint... but it seems that maybe it's more the latter than the former?

I think it's as clear as it's going to be.

I can think of a number of songs edifying to me, but they would be useless to mention in this thread. I haven't done all the background checks other Christians have to determine how Christian something is, and I'm just too concerned over the fallout of even bringing it up.

Looks like concern and upset is just my lot for this thread.

Ever heard the phrase “called to a higher standard”? 

Comparing secular/worldly entertainment to a serious message of salvation is “ridiculous”. It’s not a game. Fake and phony doesn’t fly. 

Besides... that Maiden song was written based on a nightmare Steve Harris had. They never endorsed satan worship. Although they are guilty of capitalizing from it. 

Pretending to be a Christian to take advantage of people and their money is terrible. Secular artists are what they are. It’s a shallow scam to take money from some gullible angst filled teenagers that think satan and evil is cool. They almost always grow out of it and claim to be atheist or whatever...

I respect bands like Trouble and King’s X because they never claimed to be Christian bands. They wrote songs that reflected spirituality and Bible teachings, but they didn’t promote themselves to take advantage of the Christian market. Unfortunately, I think some Christian Metal artists did see the opportunity to be “big fish in a small pond” rather than another dime a dozen secular musician. There was a time when Christian Metal was profitable. Stryper was proof of that.

For the record...

Some satanic and hardcore bands are just as finicky about authenticity. This isn’t just a Christian Metal issue.

TZ75 wrote:Some satanic and hardcore bands are just as finicky about authenticity. This isn’t just a Christian Metal issue.

TZ75 wrote:Ever heard the phrase “called to a higher standard”?

Comparing secular/worldly entertainment to a serious message of salvation is “ridiculous”. It’s not a game. Fake and phony doesn’t fly.

So Christians are called to a higher standard, but Christians are still on the same "poser witchhunt" standard, exactly like hardcore kids and satanic black metalers are.

TZ75 wrote:My assessment was not a condemnation. It’s just a thought on this topic. Don’t let my thoughts upset you. I’m not telling you how to think. Just do your thing!

You're setting up a double standard in this thread.  You're going to tout here that you're not telling me how to think, but then you to berate me for not thinking the same way you do.

TZ75 wrote:I respect bands like Trouble and King’s X because they never claimed to be Christian bands. They wrote songs that reflected spirituality and Bible teachings, but they didn’t promote themselves to take advantage of the Christian market. Unfortunately, I think some Christian Metal artists did see the opportunity to be “big fish in a small pond” rather than another dime a dozen secular musician. There was a time when Christian Metal was profitable. Stryper was proof of that.

This is just Exhibit A on how too much bias and more double standards are involved with all of this.  

Any seemingly Christian band denounces being a Christian band in an interview, many people will immediately find them inauthentic. (because, like you do, they judge their lives)  Not the real deal. "It’s not a game. Fake and phony doesn’t fly."

Styper, Kings X and Trouble denounce being Christian bands and its "respectful" and "not taking advantage of the Christian market" and they're the most authentic bands ever.

Who knew that Kings X and Trouble would show us all, that being a Christian band is only exploiting the niche Christian music market.  Except Steve Rowe with Mortification.  They can be a Christian band that doesn't just use the Christian music market as an advantage.

TZ75 wrote:I want to include Dave Mustaine and David Ellefson from Megadeth, but I sometimes get a weird feeling about them. More Mustaine than Ellefson... but who am I to judge?

Who are you to judge?  Well you already are, if you're adding people you have weird feelings about, to a public list of edifying people/bands.

I tell you what, how about you just go your way of continuing to take the inventory of your Christian metal idol's lives to determine if their music is something you want to even grace your presence with...

...meanwhile, I'll listen to music I like, and I'll consider music edifying to me, based on the message contained in it, and for no other reason.  

You may call that inauthentic, but I actually consider it to be quite sincere.  

My approach is still very uplifting to me and doesn't involve unforgiveness or smeagol-ing judgement of musicians in my heart, behind their back.  The same can't be said of your approach.

Thomas, kindly step off.  You've become unbearable lately.

BaleMaster wrote:Thomas, kindly step off.  You've become unbearable lately.

Truth can be unbearable sometimes. If you don't agree, then call me a liar, and we can talk about that.

Why don't you just block me then? Since I don't know if you're asking me to delete my account here or just not type anything in your presence. Since me forcing you to open this thread and read what I've said is so darn painful...

BaleMaster wrote:Thomas, kindly step off.  You've become unbearable lately.

Looks like we have a new antagonist on our hands. He is starting to make Contrarian Deist look sensible.

You're upset with me, so you insult him.

Unreal.

ThomasEversole wrote:

TZ75 wrote:Some satanic and hardcore bands are just as finicky about authenticity. This isn’t just a Christian Metal issue.

TZ75 wrote:Ever heard the phrase “called to a higher standard”?

Comparing secular/worldly entertainment to a serious message of salvation is “ridiculous”. It’s not a game. Fake and phony doesn’t fly.

So Christians are called to a higher standard, but Christians are still on the same "poser witchhunt" standard, exactly like hardcore kids and satanic black metalers are.

TZ75 wrote:My assessment was not a condemnation. It’s just a thought on this topic. Don’t let my thoughts upset you. I’m not telling you how to think. Just do your thing!

You're setting up a double standard in this thread.  You're going to tout here that you're not telling me how to think, but then you to berate me for not thinking the same way you do.

TZ75 wrote:I respect bands like Trouble and King’s X because they never claimed to be Christian bands. They wrote songs that reflected spirituality and Bible teachings, but they didn’t promote themselves to take advantage of the Christian market. Unfortunately, I think some Christian Metal artists did see the opportunity to be “big fish in a small pond” rather than another dime a dozen secular musician. There was a time when Christian Metal was profitable. Stryper was proof of that.

This is just Exhibit A on how too much bias and more double standards are involved with all of this.  

Any seemingly Christian band denounces being a Christian band in an interview, many people will immediately find them inauthentic.  (because, like you do, they judge their lives)  Not the real deal. "It’s not a game. Fake and phony doesn’t fly."

Styper, Kings X and Trouble denounce being Christian bands and its "respectful" and "not taking advantage of the Christian market" and they're the most authentic bands ever.

Who knew that Kings X and Trouble would show us all, that being a Christian band is only exploiting the niche Christian music market.  Except Steve Rowe with Mortification.  They can be a Christian band that doesn't just use the Christian music market as an advantage.

TZ75 wrote:I want to include Dave Mustaine and David Ellefson from Megadeth, but I sometimes get a weird feeling about them. More Mustaine than Ellefson... but who am I to judge?

Who are you to judge?  Well you already are, if you're adding people you have weird feelings about, to a public list of edifying people/bands.

I tell you what, how about you just go your way of continuing to take the inventory of your Christian metal idol's lives to determine if their music is something you want to even grace your presence with...

...meanwhile, I'll listen to music I like, and I'll consider music edifying to me, based on the message contained in it, and for no other reason.  

You may call that inauthentic, but I actually consider it to be quite sincere.  

My approach is still very uplifting to me and doesn't involve unforgiveness or smeagol-ing judgement of musicians in my heart, behind their back.  The same can't be said of your approach.

I’m sure you think you put me in my place... Lol

I like how you dissect everything I say and spin it to look foolish because I dare have my own mind and disagree with your “devil’s advocate” sensibility. You’re like a hypersensitive nag that nitpicks every word we say worse than a pissed off girlfriend. 

What is really going on? Are you going through something?? You seem a bit too angry about this frivolous topic. You can do whatever you want. Believe what you want. Twist the facts how you want...

Btw, I already told you I still listen to my old Christian Metal CDs regardless of the former members current beliefs. Let that sink in before you respond to this.

ThomasEversole wrote:You're upset with me, so you insult him.

Unreal.

So comparing him to you is an insult? Gotcha!

To be honest... you are acting way worse than him. He was opinionated and different, but you are antagonistic.

TZ75 wrote:
So comparing him to you is an insult? Gotcha!

Come off it. If I said "He is starting to make TZ75 look sensible." we'd see you butthurt from that.

TZ75 wrote:To be honest... you are acting way worse than him.

You would know all the nuanced differences wouldn't you, since you judge everyone.

ThomasEversole wrote:

TZ75 wrote:
So comparing him to you is an insult? Gotcha!

Come off it.  If I said "He is starting to make TZ75 look sensible." we'd see you butthurt from that.

TZ75 wrote:To be honest... you are acting way worse than him.

You would know all the nuanced differences wouldn't you, since you judge everyone.

Unreal...  

You accuse me of what you are doing. Who’s the judge now? You are condescending to anyone that doesn’t agree with you.

Are you judging me by saying I judge others? Nice to know that I judge “everyone”... because that is the first thing on my mind when I wake up every day. Lol

You are so judgmental.

TZ75 wrote:Are you judging me by saying I judge others?

You have to ask? You're the expert on that. You should know.

TZ75 wrote:Nice to know that I judge “everyone”... because that is the first thing on my mind when I wake up every day.

That wasn't so hard for you to admit now was it?

TZ75 wrote:You are so judgmental.

No. We're both trolling each other. And all everyone sees from our interactions this morning is 2 people taking a massive dump in the middle of a public street.

If you don't like being accused of being a judgmental person, have you thought about not doing that? I am outraged and I have concerns over this very topic. Criticism of judging others, is not the same as judging others.

Since I don't have your permission to think otherwise, you troll me, then I troll you back, and I feed your trolling and then you feed my trolling. You can call me wrong all you want, I will show you a mirror. I can call you wrong all I want, and you will show me a mirror.

Your move.

Well... you will need to claim to be God if you think you know me better than I know myself. You like to tell me who I am and what I do! Now do you claim that? 

Your snarky response to the second quote is what someone would say that has nothing to say... Congrats!

I’m not trolling. I made a comment above (not directed to you) and you decided to address me with a weird rant. I now am responding to your comments. I would suggest you look in your own mirror, but a cracked mirror is a distorted reflection.

Sorry for the delay all... but this thread is now locked.