As I Lay Dying - My Own Grave

Temple of Blood wrote:

strangerhoncho wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:Those guys are total whores for working with that murderer again.


1 Corinthians 5:
"It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is intolerable even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife.   And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have been stricken with grief and removed from your fellowship the man who did this?…"

Do pagans tolerate the attempted murder of a woman?


I see not a thing funny about this.

That passage is about unrepentant people flaunting their sin as acceptable and laudable within Christian community.  Not relevant to this situation, where a man has been punished, has repented, and is remorseful and seeking to make amends to those he can.

"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.'  But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."  -- Matthew 5:22-23

So we're all just as guilty, according to Jesus.  It's a scandalous, ridiculous thing that we can repent of the worst sins and be covered by his blood, but that's the crux of Christianity.  We don't get to judge who is sincere and who is not, lest we presume to be God.

The world is where there is no forgiveness for the repentant sinner.  Every one a self-righteous judge, stone ready in hand.

I thought I made it clear before that this isn't about forgiveness.

Serving two years for murdering a woman isn't "punishment".  The only reason she isn't dead is because he is incompetent, not because he didn't have every intention of murdering her.

He has still not faced the appropriate punishment.  It's ludicrous that the Christian community should have lower standards for behavior than the pagan community.

He is not "seeking to make amends to those he can" either.  This is MURDER we're talking about, not a theft or something.  Give the money from AILD to his wife and kids and get a real job on the side if you really want to TRY to make amends.  He would never do that because this is all about him, as it always has been.

If you think 2 years is just fine, why not 2 hours in jail?  I mean, let's not judge his heart amirite?  He repented as soon as the handcuffs were snapped on.  Stop conflating the issue.

I think a lot of this "forgiveness" is really just folks who couldn't care less if his wife had actually been murdered.  But do unto others, right?  If she was my loved one, I would want him to do his time.  You guys would be OK with only 2 years served if it was your wife/mother/daughter?

His sentencing and the implementation of it are outside our domain, and in the hands of the court system.  They gave him a sentence with certain conditions (I.e. parole/commutation)that were set up under the constraints of law, and judge that those conditions were fulfilled as set forth.....
Whether or not anyone is “OK” with it isn’t about Tim Lambesis at all.  It’s about dissatisfaction with the court system’s handling of the case.  The only conflating of issues going on here is on your part.

As far as the concept of “appropriate punishment” goes......the “appropriate punishment” under the law (and OT decree) for the adulterous woman in John 7/8 was execution, and Jesus upended that idea pretty firmly.

Are you going to answer my questions I posed?

Temple of Blood wrote:Are you going to answer my questions I posed?

They’re quite irrelevant, for the reasons I gave in my previous post.  Doesn’t MATTER if i’m OK with things or not....and i’ll GUARANTEE that a whole lot of the populous thought the adulterous woman didn’t receive the appropriate punishment, either.

It hurts the Christian metal scene to be so willfully blind to the phoniness of this high-profile band.  Those of us who care about this scene do care about how it's viewed, especially when the critics are completely right.

He should not be accepted in the same position he had pre-attempted murder. 

It matters if you're OK with it if you consider buying his music, go see him play, or even bother listening to that song at all.  Also if the band should be promoted at all in Christian forums or ex-communicated, so to speak.  The Bible even speaks about believers being removed from the church.

Is there any crime at all that could be committed where people here would think a musician/band should not be promoted on Christian websites?  If it's not murder, I take it that's a no.  What if he was a child molestor and a mass murderer?

Temple of Blood wrote:It hurts the Christian metal scene to be so willfully blind to the phoniness of this high-profile band.  Those of us who care about this scene do care about how it's viewed, especially when the critics are completely right.

He should not be accepted in the same position he had pre-attempted murder. 

It matters if you're OK with it if you consider buying his music, go see him play, or even bother listening to that song at all.  Also if the band should be promoted at all in Christian forums or ex-communicated, so to speak.  The Bible even speaks about believers being removed from the church.

Is there any crime at all that could be committed where people here would think a musician/band should not be promoted on Christian websites?  If it's not murder, I take it that's a no.  What if he was a child molestor and a mass murderer?

ah so it’s all about the optics ans scene pride for you.  Gotcha.  I can disengage comfortably from this conversation at this point, because we’ll never see eye to eye, not do I feel any particular need to justify my disagreements with your position.

It's not optics.  It's who we accept to represent us.  That's not superficial, as you suggest it is.

You're just having trouble answering my final question.  I understand though, because it simply can't be justified.

What other organization anywhere would accept ANYONE no matter what they did to represent them and their views?  Apparently only the Christian metal scene!

Temple of Blood wrote:It hurts the Christian metal scene to be so willfully blind to the phoniness of this high-profile band.  Those of us who care about this scene do care about how it's viewed, especially when the critics are completely right.

He should not be accepted in the same position he had pre-attempted murder. 

It matters if you're OK with it if you consider buying his music, go see him play, or even bother listening to that song at all.  Also if the band should be promoted at all in Christian forums or ex-communicated, so to speak.  The Bible even speaks about believers being removed from the church.

Is there any crime at all that could be committed where people here would think a musician/band should not be promoted on Christian websites?  If it's not murder, I take it that's a no.  What if he was a child molestor and a mass murderer?

Re: mass murderer, you mean like the apostle Paul?

If the worst of us can't be forgiven by Christ, then what is the point?  Of what use was his death and resurrection if that same death and resurrection is not possible in the hearts of vile sinners?

Again, you're conflating.  I never said the worst aren't forgiven by Christ.

As I understand it, you've said a man who intended murder in his heart should not be forgiven as you or I hope to be for our equally heinous (according to Jesus) sins, because he has not yet been punished sufficiently by the world's justice system to be truly repentant by your standards.

strangerhoncho wrote:As I understand it, you've said a man who intended murder in his heart should not be forgiven as you or I hope to be for our equally heinous (according to Jesus) sins, because he has not yet been punished sufficiently by the world's justice system to be truly repentant by your standards.

No, I don't think he should be a representative of Christian metal anymore or allowed anywhere near Christian outlets.  Shows, fests, forums, labels, anything like that.  I also don't think Christians should continue to give him money and support his work.  Treat him as a heathen and a tax collector, so to speak.

Tim did a lot more than "intend murder in his heart".  Through his actions he committed murder and only because of his ineptness it didn't happen.  He had DAYS of contemplation on this where he intended to kill the woman he pledged to protect and love.  This was not an act of passion in a moment.  100% pre-meditated and cold-blooded.

I don't think he's sincere in his repentance but that's not really a factor here for me.   He should not be restored to the same position that he was in before the attempted murder.

Why should the Christian scene have lower standards for behavior than the secular scene? 

A recent example:
The black metal band Inquisition had a scandal where their band leader was convicted of owning child pornography.  When it came to light, their tour was cancelled.  Their label immediately dropped them.

Similar things have happened to members of Decrepit Birth and Iced Earth.  They were FIRED.  Their severe crimes were not overlooked.  They weren't ignored in the interest of protecting the band's name/brand the way AILD has done here.


Forgiveness in one's heart and real-life consequences are not equivalent.  That's what I mean by conflating unequal things.

I'm curious where's he repented as all i've seen is him saying he made mistakes. I will say, two years is no punishment for someone who tried to have someone killed. Forgiveness and repentance don't do away with the punishment for the crime.

Temple of Blood wrote:It's not optics.  It's who we accept to represent us.  That's not superficial, as you suggest it is.

You're just having trouble answering my final question.  I understand though, because it simply can't be justified.

What other organization anywhere would accept ANYONE no matter what they did to represent them and their views?  Apparently only the Christian metal scene!

You know, after a day’s reflection, maybe disengaging isn’t the right track to take.

Dude....you just described EXACTLY what “optics” is.  Don’t understand what about that’s sonhardfor you to decipher.  Your concern is based around how the acceptance “looks”.  

Your last question isn’t “tough” for me.  It’s IRRELEVANT to me, because i’m quite legitimately not concerned with how the world views the Christian Metal scene.  They ALREADY call us clowns, hypocrites, and liars......and NOTHING is going to change that. The world will think what it will, and to be frank, neither you nor I are any better than Lambesis in the eyes of God, damned but for Christ.  As Strangerhoncho pointed out roughly half the NT was written by a repented muderer, and that’s our instruction manual right there were talking about.  

I don’t find your take o the matter to be justifiable, just full of anger, wounded pride, and scorn.


Like I said, we’re never going to see eye to eye on this.

Have you ever heard of that man who committed adultery and murdered the husband’s woman he committed adultery with? He also contemplated and worked his way around to have the husband killed and succeeded!!! And he still was called a man according to God’s heart!!! 
King David, does it resonate with you? Does God has low standars too? 


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BTW, hello everyone!!! Me and my family are doing great, tons of things have happened in the last year. I really don’t have much time for FB and forums as I am working from 7am to 10pm 24/7 the good part is that I have a good income that has allowed us to help our family to come with us, not everyone has come thou but most of them have. 

I will try to come a post more frequently. 

God bless you all.

KaramKaram wrote:BTW, hello everyone!!! Me and my family are doing great, tons of things have happened in the last year. I really don’t have much time for FB and forums as I am working from 7am to 10pm 24/7 the good part is that I have a good income that has allowed us to help our family to come with us, not everyone has come thou but most of them have. 

I will try to come a post more frequently. 

God bless you all.

Wow good to hear you are still doing well brother!

Hope to hear some more from you soon

KaramKaram wrote:BTW, hello everyone!!! Me and my family are doing great, tons of things have happened in the last year. I really don’t have much time for FB and forums as I am working from 7am to 10pm 24/7 the good part is that I have a good income that has allowed us to help our family to come with us, not everyone has come thou but most of them have. 

I will try to come a post more frequently. 

God bless you all.

Look who's alive!

Thanks for the update!

KaramKaram wrote:Have you ever heard of that man who committed adultery and murdered the husband’s woman he committed adultery with? He also contemplated and worked his way around to have the husband killed and succeeded!!! And he still was called a man according to God’s heart!!! 
King David, does it resonate with you? Does God has low standars too? 

His son died as a result of his sin.  Ever heard that?

Devon Hill wrote:However, I am curious to hear the thoughts of those that disagree that Tim should be back in the band.  Is this simply due to the perceived lack of doing something similar as above?  I'm curious to hear your thoughts if the same thing happened with a secular artist.  As an example, let's say the singer of Cannibal Corpse did the same thing as Tim, served his jail sentence, issued a sincere apology, and then desired to join Cannibal Corpse again.  Would you be opposed to that?  If so, why?  If not, why?  What if he started a brand new band?  Would you be opposed to that?  Again why or why not?  What if he became a sound guy for the band or something like that (so not the public face of the band) - would you think that was ok?  Is it only the fact that it is perceived as a Christian band that is causing the concern of Tim joining again?  Just curious to hear your thoughts on the matter.

Good question.

I don't think even George Fisher would be allowed back in CC after being convicted of attempted murder.  I think CC would be active with a fill-in vocalist(s), one of whom would become their new singer.  I don't think they would wait until their murderer vocalist is out of jail to be active again.  They replaced their original singer and would do it again if absolutely necessary IMHO. 

But I think you're asking "should he be allowed back in the band", regardless of the practical considerations.  I don't think the standards of a Christian band are equal to the standards of a shock-metal band like CC.  For one thing, CC are dealing in fantasy/horror/fictional scenarios and obviously not advocating for what they sing.  That is completely different from what Christian metal bands do.  I don't think a murderer should be even allowed back in CC, much less any Christian band.  I wouldn't care if Tim got a job running sound for some band, but I personally would never hire him.  If CC did hire a murderer to be their vocalist, I think they would have bands not wanting to tour with them and I think it's likely they would get dropped from Metal Blade after recording like 10+ albums for them.  There would be serious real-world consequences and it would not be glossed over in favor of cheap entertainment.

You know, I’m gonna apply a little of your own logic and reasoning to another Biblical example: Peter, often referred to as chief amongst the disciples. There is an important part of his history that is a direct comparison to the Tim Lambesis situation. The only reason he is not a successful murderer is his own ineptness with his sword in the garden of gethsemane, and he outright denied Christ multiple times......and yet he was the first of the disciples Christ appeared to after His resurrection and Christ himself called the Peter the “rock” the church was to be built upon.

A great deal of the foundation of Christianity comes from a pair of murderers and Christ-deniers that were accepted or re-accepted into prominent roles within the early days of the faith.

Furthermore, I’d argue that you’re not actually holding things to a “higher standard”....you’re clinging with everything you have to a worldly standard, and simply applying it more harshly. You keep citing how the secular scene has handled (some) incidents, as if that is the standard hold up and compare to. It’s not. Christ’s handling of multiple “punishable by death” incidents and murderers is well recorded.....

Temple of Blood wrote:

KaramKaram wrote:Have you ever heard of that man who committed adultery and murdered the husband’s woman he committed adultery with? He also contemplated and worked his way around to have the husband killed and succeeded!!! And he still was called a man according to God’s heart!!! 
King David, does it resonate with you? Does God has low standars too? 

His son died as a result of his sin.  Ever heard that?

Still a man of God’s heart.

Just for the record: the name Tim Lambesis makes my skin crawl. I have a VERY visceral reaction to it, and fight my base human nature about spewing venom and invective every time I hear it......but I’m not arguing from a “devil’s advocate” POV with what i’ve beensaying, either. I truly believe our “higher standard” bears little resemblance to a worldly one.

Saying someone who has truly repented and paid their dues (even if YOU don't think it was punishment enough) that they are not allowed to represent Christians anymore in any way is just the most unChristian thing I've ever heard. That's not the Christ I know.

KaramKaram wrote:BTW, hello everyone!!! Me and my family are doing great, tons of things have happened in the last year. I really don’t have much time for FB and forums as I am working from 7am to 10pm 24/7 the good part is that I have a good income that has allowed us to help our family to come with us, not everyone has come thou but most of them have. 

I will try to come a post more frequently. 

God bless you all.

Long time no see. Glad to see you are doing well.

petrafan007 wrote:Saying someone who has truly repented and paid their dues (even if YOU don't think it was punishment enough) that they are not allowed to represent Christians anymore in any way is just the most unChristian thing I've ever heard. That's not the Christ I know.

This.  The ONLY people who can represent Christians are repentant sinners saved by grace.

Those who don't represent Christ are the Pharisees, the judges, and those for whom forgiveness is foolishness.  That's who shouldn't represent Christian metal.

Temple of Blood wrote:

strangerhoncho wrote:As I understand it, you've said a man who intended murder in his heart should not be forgiven as you or I hope to be for our equally heinous (according to Jesus) sins, because he has not yet been punished sufficiently by the world's justice system to be truly repentant by your standards.

Why should the Christian scene have lower standards for behavior than the secular scene? 

A recent example:
The black metal band Inquisition had a scandal where their band leader was convicted of owning child pornography.  When it came to light, their tour was cancelled.  Their label immediately dropped them.

Similar things have happened to members of Decrepit Birth and Iced Earth.  They were FIRED.  Their severe crimes were not overlooked.  They weren't ignored in the interest of protecting the band's name/brand the way AILD has done here.

It's not a lower standard.  It's a higher standard, that of repentance and forgiveness.  That's why Christ's sacrifice and grace is called the "foolishness of God."  Can't be understood by the world's standard of justice.

The world's standard is an eye for an eye.  Judgement of others, despite everyone's guilt.  That's the lower standard here.

WOW