Secular Metal Lyrics

I chose 5.

I'll listen to most anything, in general. There are a number of secular bands whose lyrics are, for lack of a better term, unobjectionable. For example: Ahab, Bolt Thrower, Summoning. I'd have no problem at all recommending Ahab to any Christian (provided I thought they would actually like the music). The lyrics are essentially harmless.

There are other bands whose lyrics would be considered highly offensive by a lot of people, but which I don't have a problem with. For example, Autopsy and Cannibal Corpse. Reading their lyrics is like watching a cheesy 80's horror movie. It's like a dumb joke. (I actually don't really listen to Cannibal Corpse, because I tend to find them boring).

I've been thinking about this off and on for a while, and I still haven't come to a firm decision about explicitly anti-Christian lyrics. One one level, it seems possible to appreciate music regardless of the lyrics. If I were to shun bands because of their beliefs, it would make a lot of otherwise harmless stuff off-limits for no obviously good reason. For example, Summoning's members are/were, according to Metal Archives, involved in some other bands with anti-Christian lyrics. I think one of their early releases had occult lyrics. But their lyrics now are Tolkien-inspired; do some past lyrics or the band members' side projects disqualify Summoning from enjoyment? That seems...really odd to me.

But on the other hand, I simply find myself generally disinterested in bands whose lyrics are that hostile. For example, I have a Belphegor album. The music is good, but I never actually care to listen to it. It's not like listening to it bothers me on a spiritual level or anything--I just lack interest in it, so I don't listen to it.

So I'll generally avoid bands like that. It's not all that hard to find quality bands whose lyrics don't cross over into that territory anyway.

I know some people that cross bands off their "safe secular" list because of other past/current bands they're involved in are seen as blasphemous.  That seems odd to me as well.

Unrelated to faith, I know other people (Christian and secular) that refuse to listen to good music solely because of these scenarios:
- band member X was a jerk to me at a live show 10 years ago so I don't like their music anymore
- band member X just did Y crime and it offended me too much to like their songs
...and my opinion, the worst one...
- band member X did Y immoral act before he got saved and it offends me too much to enjoy his music knowing he did that in the past

Maybe someone could explain that to me?  
...cause I don't get it either.
______________________

Something else I recently thought about, have you guys thought that in certain scenarios, it might actually leave a pretty bad taste in someone's mouth / damage a potential witnessing to refuse to listen to satanic or anti-Christian music?

Lets say I'm an extreme metal artist and/or label owner that is a Christian and works with Christian bands / have my own music.  Lets also say that I avoid satanic and anti-Christian music because of my "conviction".  

Because of live shows, I find myself in communication with satanic and/or anti-Christian bands and labels along with the other Christian ones.  ...I mean, anyone who buys a ticket can go to a show, right?  New contacts might mean new business.

In this scenario, a satanic band/label/doesn't-matter is open minded and willing to check out my band's Christian tunes.  They actually like it!  Might be an awesome witnessing opportunity, right?  

After they check out my tunes first and want to know what I think of their music, or want to trade,

I decline to even listen to it.  ...because its "against my beliefs" and I have a conviction against listening to anything satanic/anti-Christian.  

I can't imagine a different response than them being annoyed, offended, thinking I'm close minded, petty, unfair, prejudice...  etc. etc. etc.  It still wouldn't warrant them all of a sudden not liking my music and refusing to listen to it, but it would certainly damage my ability to witness to them because "common courtesy" and rapport just took a major hit.

Thoughts?

ThomasEversole wrote:I know some people that cross bands off their "safe secular" list because of other past/current bands they're involved in are seen as blasphemous.  That seems odd to me as well.

Unrelated to faith, I know other people (Christian and secular) that refuse to listen to good music solely because of these scenarios:
- band member X was a jerk to me at a live show 10 years ago so I don't like their music anymore
- band member X just did Y crime and it offended me too much to like their songs
...and my opinion, the worst one...
- band member X did Y immoral act before he got saved and it offends me too much to enjoy his music knowing he did that in the past

Maybe someone could explain that to me?  
...cause I don't get it either.
______________________

Something else I recently thought about, have you guys thought that in certain scenarios, it might actually leave a pretty bad taste in someone's mouth / damage a potential witnessing to refuse to listen to satanic or anti-Christian music?

Lets say I'm an extreme metal artist and/or label owner that is a Christian and works with Christian bands / have my own music.  Lets also say that I avoid satanic and anti-Christian music because of my "conviction".  

Because of live shows, I find myself in communication with satanic and/or anti-Christian bands and labels along with the other Christian ones.  ...I mean, anyone who buys a ticket can go to a show, right?  New contacts might mean new business.

In this scenario, a satanic band/label/doesn't-matter is open minded and willing to check out my band's Christian tunes.  They actually like it!  Might be an awesome witnessing opportunity, right?  

After they check out my tunes first and want to know what I think of their music, or want to trade,

I decline to even listen to it.  ...because its "against my beliefs" and I have a conviction against listening to anything satanic/anti-Christian.  

I can't imagine a different response than them being annoyed, offended, thinking I'm close minded, petty, unfair, prejudice...  etc. etc. etc.  It still wouldn't warrant them all of a sudden not liking my music and refusing to listen to it, but it would certainly damage my ability to witness to them because "common courtesy" and rapport just took a major hit.

Thoughts?

In that kind of situation I don't necessarily think it would violate one's conviction to listen to it for the purpose of giving an opinion. In that case, it would basically be an academic exercise. (Similar to a Christian website reviewing a movie and then recommending that nobody watch the movie due to its content.)

That's a good analogy.  ...but that just confuses me more.  HAHA!!!  

I wouldn't think conviction would go away if the intent/purposes was changed?  Or even the presentation?  I always saw it as something clearly cut and dry.

Even though satanic black metal doesn't convict me, I totally get conviction.  Sticking to the movie reference, I'm assuming most Christians wouldn't just sit down and watch a porn DVD on their own accord knowing the premise... myself included.  

...but I don't understand it being all of a sudden being ok, or me being ok to watch that same DVD for "research".  Being truly convicted, I'd want to cut the power or run out of the room!

Sorry, not trying to be difficult.

Also, there are songs that may SOUND "evil" or "dark", but are really completely innocent. For example, Tipper Gore famously said that Twisted Sister's "Under the Blade" was about violent sex. It's actually about throat surgery (she also parroted the claims that suicide solution, fade to black, and dont fear the reaper were pro-suicide, which Ozzy, Metallica and Blue Oyster Cult have all claimed wasnt the case).

ThomasEversole wrote:I can't imagine a different response than them being annoyed, offended, thinking I'm close minded, petty, unfair, prejudice...  etc. etc. etc.  It still wouldn't warrant them all of a sudden not liking my music and refusing to listen to it, but it would certainly damage my ability to witness to them because "common courtesy" and rapport just took a major hit.

Thoughts?

as far as the response, it totally depends on the person. for example it doesn't sound like Penn Jillette would have that kind of reaction:




and, if we are living "Christianly", the general attitude toward us will not be great:

GOD wrote:“If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

- John 15:18-19 ESV

besides, God is the one that draws people to Himself, not our action/inaction. as Jesus said:

www.gotquestions.org wrote:The clearest verse on God’s drawing to salvation is John 6:44 where Jesus declares that “no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.” The Greek word translated “draw” is helkuo, which means “to drag” (literally or figuratively). Clearly, this drawing is a one-sided affair. God does the drawing to salvation; we who are drawn have a passive role in the process.

http://www.gotquestions.org/drawn-salvation.html

GOD wrote:No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

- John 6:44 ESV

That was a good video. Too bad that even despite what he said, he still has a truck barreling toward him. ...as said in his video.

I would think them being annoyed, offended, thinking I'm close minded, petty, unfair, prejudice wouldn't have as much to do with them not liking the Christian conviction,

but because their art wasn't even given a chance for reasons that aren't related to the music itself. The same reason I'd think the same thing if the shoe was on the other foot -

ie: I jammed there satanic song, thought it was talented and had an awesome sound. The refused to even listen to my music because they don't like Christianity.
I'd think they were petty and a chicken.

Good post man.

I only do Christian metal anymore.  I know some of the lyrics can be watered down, or senseless, but the fact Christians are behind it is enough for me.
I think people overlook the meanings behind a lot of stuff, also.  What may seem benign, or even good, may not exactly be pleasing to God.  I had on a shirt the other day, a metal themed shirt with a clear Christian message.  God told my roommate it was macabre, so it and another two went in the trash.  I liked it, thought it was good, but that's what it was.

ThomasEversole wrote:That was a good video.  Too bad that even despite what he said, he still has a truck barreling toward him.  ...as said in his video.

I would think them being annoyed, offended, thinking I'm close minded, petty, unfair, prejudice wouldn't have as much to do with them not liking the Christian conviction,

but because their art wasn't even given a chance for reasons that aren't related to the music itself.  The same reason I'd think the same thing if the shoe was on the other foot -

ie: I jammed there satanic song, thought it was talented and had an awesome sound.  The refused to even listen to my music because they don't like Christianity.
I'd think they were petty and a chicken.

Good post man.

See, I don't think it would actually be unrelated to the art, which is the whole package: music, lyrics, image, etc.......it's all wrapped up as one package, or else they wouldn't bother with "satan" as the chosen subject matter.  It's just silly to say that it's NOT related to the art, because all the choices made in assembling the ensemble are quite deliberately made, and thus affect an individual's potential enjoyment o said art.

Whether or not "art" is "good" is a purely subjective judgement, and it's quite natural to say something isn't good if one doesn't enjoy it.  If folks don't wish to partake of MY art because ANY aspect of it, well, so be it......I'm not making my art for others, necessarily.....

ThomasEversole wrote:That's a good analogy.  ...but that just confuses me more.  HAHA!!!  

I wouldn't think conviction would go away if the intent/purposes was changed?  Or even the presentation?  I always saw it as something clearly cut and dry.

Even though satanic black metal doesn't convict me, I totally get conviction.  Sticking to the movie reference, I'm assuming most Christians wouldn't just sit down and watch a porn DVD on their own accord knowing the premise... myself included.  

...but I don't understand it being all of a sudden being ok, or me being ok to watch that same DVD for "research".  Being truly convicted, I'd want to cut the power or run out of the room!

Sorry, not trying to be difficult.

This is my personal take on it.  I only listen to Christian metal.  However, if somebody personally asked me to listen to their secular metal, I would many of the times have no problem with that.  If God said he didn't want me to listen to it, I would honour that and not do it.  The main reason I don't listen to metal with lyrics that are anti-Christian is not because it would cause me to stumble or have temptation, but because I want to honour God in my choices.  In the same way that I wouldn't listen to a song suggesting I should cheat on my wife, or a song saying my son is a horrible person.  If I listened to those songs, I wouldn't necessarily be tempted to believe those lies, but it certainly is not honouring to them.

If someone clearly knows you are a Christian, and that you only listen to Christian metal, and they ask you if you would like you to listen to their satanic metal CD, there could be two possibilities: 1. they are deliberately trying to test you to see if you will be "faithful" or 2. they are just asking.  #2 would be the majority of the time I would guess.  I've listened to lots of friends metal to see how it is.  I have no problem with that.  I think there is a major difference between listening to anti-Christian music for the sole purpose of entertainment (and having a healthy diet of it) compared to listening to a friends CD once to hear it based on their request. 

I personally believe music does have an affect on someone's spiritual life (moreso in relation to the "honouring God" aspect compared to tempting to believe in satanism).  I also believe just as the presence of God comes through music that is praising him, if Satan is praised in music, it allows the demonic realm to be released.  Satan is an opportunist and a deceiver, and any loop-hole or opportunity given to him, he will take it.  Therefore if the lyrics were quite anti-Christian, I would definitely give this to God, pray to Him, and bind the demonic realm before I listen.  Not because of some religious fear of Satan or something, but out of honour of God, and to involve Him in it for his glory and purpose.

In relation to the other scenario about watching a porn video a friend suggested, I believe that is completely different.  Watching porn without a doubt causes temptation in the high majority of people.  So not only is it not honouring to God, but it also involves temptation.  If listening to a friends metal also gives somebody temptation (such as they are really struggling with not listening to anti-Christian music) they shouldn't do it either.  Also there would be no reason why a person would want you to watch their porn video.  What reason would they suggest?  To assess their work on the lighting or production skills?  Every maker of a porn video would know the amount of temptation it would bring to a person, and if they knew someone was a Christian, they would never ask them to watch it to assess their production skills.  They would clearly understand if someone said they didn't want to watch it due to their conviction and faith.

With my movie review analogy, I was thinking more about the typical PluggedIn review (for example), where they might recommend against watching a movie because of the swearing, or the violence, or various reasons. Obviously watching a porn movie for "academic reasons" is totally not acceptable, for obvious reasons.

On the topic of t-shirts--I volunteer at my church's youth group and help lead a discussion group. I decided not long ago that I was going to be a lot more careful in what shirts I wear on these nights, not because I think any of the shirts I wear are wrong, but because I'm acting as a representative of the church and I don't want there to be any potential difficulties or misunderstanding. I really like my Crimson Thorn "Unearthed" shirt, but I'm not going to wear it to youth group because of the potential confusion it might cause, with what some might deem violent imagery. It's worth noting that Crimson Thorn is not at all tentative about their being a Christian band--their lyrics are firmly Christian.

I'm a pretty non-confrontational guy, so I don't like to make a big deal out of this stuff. I keep my weird, extreme music tastes mostly to myself and if people disagree with them I'm happy to keep the music away from them and let it go.

Savage Amusement wrote:S6's post made me think for a moment...Do you guys think that whatever theology/doctrine a person holds would have an effect on their answer to this poll? (When I say doctrine/theology I mean the way one views God, the holy spirit, Christ, Obedience, holiness, morality, the Bible, sin and forgiveness...) It  doesn't mean any of us are better or more holy (or more lost)..just different...

Yes, we are all a product of our beliefs.

ThomasEversole wrote:
Back to metal in comparison.  Its inanimate as well.  I feel like some Christians put music lyrics on a pedestal a few pegs down from scripture itself.  ...at least, give those lyrics almost that much weight in their heart.

Music is art, and usually deals with thoughts and concepts. People make music from the overflow of what is in their heart. And unless you compartmentalize your mind and heart, what we consume for entertainment reflects on us as well. The thing is though, we are so driven by the need to gratify ourselves with entertainment that we cannot easily see when we compromise our beliefs.

exo wrote:The I've discovered over the years that bands, especially many earlier "Christian metal" bands strike me as too "try hard", and can't listen to a lot of them.  If they can be rated on the "JPM" scale (that's the "mentions of Jesus per minute" that used to jokingly be referred to), my brain interprets it as "forced/false", and it bothers me to the point that i have just as much trouble listening to it as I do Behemoth or the like.

I can understand that for sure. For me, its always been about how " scriptural " the " Christian " music is over the " JPM. " And to go farther than that, i'm always testing the scriptural content from a historical protestant evangelical world view.

ThomasEversole wrote:
Something else I recently thought about, have you guys thought that in certain scenarios, it might actually leave a pretty bad taste in someone's mouth / damage a potential witnessing to refuse to listen to satanic or anti-Christian music?

Lets say I'm an extreme metal artist and/or label owner that is a Christian and works with Christian bands / have my own music.  Lets also say that I avoid satanic and anti-Christian music because of my "conviction".  

Because of live shows, I find myself in communication with satanic and/or anti-Christian bands and labels along with the other Christian ones.  ...I mean, anyone who buys a ticket can go to a show, right?  New contacts might mean new business.

In this scenario, a satanic band/label/doesn't-matter is open minded and willing to check out my band's Christian tunes.  They actually like it!  Might be an awesome witnessing opportunity, right?  

After they check out my tunes first and want to know what I think of their music, or want to trade,

I decline to even listen to it.  ...because its "against my beliefs" and I have a conviction against listening to anything satanic/anti-Christian.  

I can't imagine a different response than them being annoyed, offended, thinking I'm close minded, petty, unfair, prejudice...  etc. etc. etc.  It still wouldn't warrant them all of a sudden not liking my music and refusing to listen to it, but it would certainly damage my ability to witness to them because "common courtesy" and rapport just took a major hit.

Thoughts?

I think they may have less respect for your beliefs if they see that your willing to compromise them.

Also, if you are in conversation with them, then that is a witnessing opportunity in of itself.

I know many might over this question, but I think its quite a interesting one. What number do you guys feel that Jesus would fit into ? Honestly, he was 100% human as well as 100% divine, so I think its appropriate to ask. Jesus ate, drank, slept, cried and laughed, and i'm sure he enjoyed music as well. I know he was at at least one wedding and there was probably music. The Jewish culture had music. You could say that this wasn't a valid question because Jesus was in a very different culture from the one we are used to now. But I think there are many principles that would translate today. Would Jesus partake of goings on at the Roman Colosseum ? Would he partake of some Greek or Roman songs in devotion to their gods ?

Also, I personally would be uncomfortable watching some movies or listening to some music if Jesus were with me at that moment. When I do, I feel like a disobedient bond slave of Christ. See, I know God knows it when I sin. But I guess i'm just a practical atheist in those moments.

For the record I put Jesus at number # 1. I just don't think it would be a desire that he would have in his heart and mind.

Peter who was Vaak wrote:I had on a shirt the other day, a metal themed shirt with a clear Christian message.  God told my roommate it was macabre, so it and another two went in the trash.  I liked it, thought it was good, but that's what it was.

I don't know what to say to this.
This would be like someone else never drinking a beer again because I'm an alcoholic.

Peter who was Vaak wrote:I only do Christian metal anymore.  I know some of the lyrics can be watered down, or senseless, but the fact Christians are behind it is enough for me.
I think people overlook the meanings behind a lot of stuff, also.  What may seem benign, or even good, may not exactly be pleasing to God.  I had on a shirt the other day, a metal themed shirt with a clear Christian message.  God told my roommate it was macabre, so it and another two went in the trash.  I liked it, thought it was good, but that's what it was.

Sure. Many people just are not desensitized to the images and things associated with the " metal " world that we are. I try to look at things from other peoples perspective when comes to metal " images. " When some Christian band is aping the concepts and visuals of certain secular bands, they can't tell the difference.

Devon Hill wrote:
I personally believe music does have an affect on someone's spiritual life (moreso in relation to the "honouring God" aspect compared to tempting to believe in satanism).  I also believe just as the presence of God comes through music that is praising him, if Satan is praised in music, it allows the demonic realm to be released. 

I personally believe that music CAN have an effect on someone's spiritual life, not that it WILL and not that it ALWAYS WILL. Like my alcohol scenario in the previous post, the variable is the person - not the alcohol.

Regarding releasing demonic forces - you're taking that genre way too literal. Just because Christian music is a very honest and sincere, doesn't mean that satanic black metal is. I'm guessing you have no bands to directly refer to - which makes the conclusion wreak even more of contempt prior to investigation.

I've listened to many bands over the course of 15 years. Heard a lot of good music, and my heart is still in the same place and I'm still here.

sentient 6 wrote:
Music is art, and usually deals with thoughts and concepts. People make music from the overflow of what is in their heart. And unless you compartmentalize your mind and heart, what we consume for entertainment reflects on us as well. The thing is though, we are so driven by the need to gratify ourselves with entertainment that we cannot easily see when we compromise our beliefs.

Music is art and art usually deals with fantasy. People portray fiction and scenarios that would never happen because it's entertainment. The thing is though, "we" are so driven to point out boogeyman that "we" forget to pray for discernment.

Do you think Jesus wants you to be falsely lead to believe something is truth when it's not?
Then why are you doing it?

sentient 6 wrote:
Also, I personally would be uncomfortable watching some movies or listening to some music if Jesus were with me at that moment. When I do, I feel like a disobedient bond slave of Christ. See, I know God knows it when I sin. But I guess i'm just a practical atheist in those moments.

I can't believe I'm reading this. I'm not sure whether to snap on you or applaud how openly blunt you are.

For the record, I don't become a temporary atheist when I jam not-Christian metal or watch horror gore. I'm just not a gullible schizophrenic and think everything not Christian is out to get me and Jesus. This is seriously like 1 chromosome away from watching a horror movie and calling the police because someone just taped a manic killing 14 people.

ThomasEversole wrote:

Peter who was Vaak wrote:I had on a shirt the other day, a metal themed shirt with a clear Christian message.  God told my roommate it was macabre, so it and another two went in the trash.  I liked it, thought it was good, but that's what it was.

I don't know what to say to this.
This would be like someone else never drinking a beer again because I'm an alcoholic.

I look at it more as, am I pleasing God?  If the One who created us all is not pleased with an action of mine, I will change and I am happy to.  I want Him to be able to tell me anything and I will do it.

Why would God not be pleased by wearing a shirt with His message on it? Did you feel anything when you first wore it? First bought it? Thought about buying it?

Sounds to me like your friend is manipulating you and will probably want you to throw away CDs or books next.

Sounds to me like your friend is manipulating you and will probably want you to throw away CDs or books next.

probably so...thats what religion does..manipulates people

to go farther than that, i'm always testing the scriptural content from a historical protestant evangelical world view.

this comment says more to me about your view and religious beliefs than anything you have ever said

Is that a good thing? Sounds way too complicated to me.