Persecution of Christians in America

Gandalf the White wrote:

Wow... I don't think I've ever had anyone say their response to my opinions would lead to a thread being locked. So are you leaving the thread? You said yourself it was written from a pacifist point of view. If you don't address the pacifism, you can no longer comment.

I don't think my responses have ever gotten a thread locked, but everyone I get into ( like this ) seems to end up that way. I guess I would say that I am not against pacifism per se, but I don't see it as the most balanced view. The proverbs say that there is a time in history for everything, and includes love and war. Heck, most Christians don't realize that the Word before the incarnation ordered whole cities to be put to the sword. Jesus told the disciples to buy a sword. sure, Jesus told Peter to put his sword away, but the scripture is much deeper and richer than mere pacifism.

 Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. ⁵³ Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? ⁵⁴ But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?”

.....peter did something similar earlier..

²¹ From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. ²² And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, “Far be it from you, Lord! This shall never happen to you.” ²³ But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”


I believe that Jesus was once again rebuking Peter. Before, Peter used words. But in the garden, Peter used a sword. I do truly believe that when Jesus was telling peter that if he continues with his hot temper that he would reap what he sowed with violence ( live by the sword ). And just maybe Jesus knew the motives in peters heart when he struck out - maybe pride. Because not long after this, he would betray Jesus in his heart.

Mortal wrote:

sentient 6 wrote:Is there some denomination or church or orthodox teacher ( as opposed to the west boro type ) that is teaching this ?

How about Christ Himself?


Not good enough for ya?

sentient 6 wrote:To speak to the chaplains point, I think the problem in general is the cultures constant emphasis that we have to always be entertaining ourselves to be happy. Then we seek out the movies that entertain us more - plots involving violence and revenge.

I don't think you are improving on the point at all.

Christ is teaching patriotism over Christianity ?





Not improving it ? maybe not. But I think there is probably a more balanced way to teach loving our enemies without the liberal baggage.

Gandalf the White wrote:

sentient 6 wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

No but I am. I also think most people confuse "pacifist" with "do-nothing-ist."

Well, lets define our terms then. Scripturally, what does it mean to be a christian pacifist ?

Frankly, being a "Christian pacifist" is kinda like being a Christian Bible reader. It's a silly term.

But from my own approach:

You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matt. 5:38-39)

Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. (Matt. 5:43-48, Luke 6:27-28)

Put your sword back in its place...for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. (Matt. 26:52)

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Matt. 5:9)

This is what makes a "Christian pacifist".

Sure, I would agree that this is simply part of real Christian teaching. But if you believe that people have a right to protect themselves and their family, that there are times for war and that Christians can serve in combat....then  are you really a pacifist ?

sentient 6 wrote:I never heard a real Christian who is conformed to the Word of God equate patriotism with real Christian faith.

And yet ANOTHER attempt to change the subject by making strawman arguments.

No one is saying that real Christians who are conformed to the Word of God equate patriotism with real Christian faith.

In case you haven't noticed by now, the word "Christian" can refer to both real Christians....and "Churchians".

Both fall under the name of "Christian".

If you had been trying to follow the subject this whole time instead of just trying to win the argument, you probably would have caught on to that.

But you are trying to dismiss this whole subject because REAL Christians don't act like that.

sentient 6 wrote:Christ is teaching patriotism over Christianity ?

That's not what I was talking about

You obviously do not know how to stick to a single subject. You hop, skip and jump around more than a child playing hopscotch.

But of course, you are not really here to follow the subject, are you?

You are only here to win the argument, aren't you?

sentient 6 wrote:Not improving it ? maybe not. But I think there is probably a more balanced way to teach loving our enemies without the liberal baggage.

Oh really??

Why don't you stop then?

sentient 6 wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

But I thought Christianity was about truth and what's real, not our feelings and experiences...?

I know plenty of people who do this. I guess relativism is alive and well in Christianity...

What do they do ? I never heard a real Christian who is conformed to the Word of God equate patriotism with real Christian faith. Sure, I have seen politicians play that card at times. But I can't think any person who is relevant to the real work of Gods Kingdom and the Church teach stuff like that.

Heres the pastors whole sermon for anyone whos interested...I wanted the whole context..

http://www.newsforage.com/2015/03/christian-college-chaplain-fired-for.html


And in a wider and more general point, I am all for Christians doing some self reflection on the music, TV and movies they enjoy and have a desire for. And for the record, I do believe that things that glorify violence and hatred and revenge are antithetical holiness.

See this gets tricky - I don't know who's a "real Christian" and who isn't. And I'm sure your definition will be different than mine so...

sentient 6 wrote:

Mortal wrote:

I find it odd that you hinge all of this on whether or not you yourself can name names.

Is there some denomination or church or orthodox teacher ( as opposed to the west boro type ) that is teaching this ? To speak to the chaplains point, I think the problem in general is the cultures constant emphasis that we have to always be entertaining ourselves to be happy. Then we seek out the movies that entertain us more - plots involving violence and revenge.

why is it you can read some things and seem to completely understand the point but when someone you disagree with (like me, or Mortal, or messiahen77) posts something, you completely miss the point? Is that intentional? If so, it makes you look like you're intentionally causing dissension. If not, it makes you look silly.

sentient 6 wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

Wow... I don't think I've ever had anyone say their response to my opinions would lead to a thread being locked. So are you leaving the thread? You said yourself it was written from a pacifist point of view. If you don't address the pacifism, you can no longer comment.

I don't think my responses have ever gotten a thread locked, but everyone I get into ( like this ) seems to end up that way. I guess I would say that I am not against pacifism per se, but I don't see it as the most balanced view. The proverbs say that there is a time in history for everything, and includes love and war. Heck, most Christians don't realize that the Word before the incarnation ordered whole cities to be put to the sword. Jesus told the disciples to buy a sword. sure, Jesus told Peter to put his sword away, but the scripture is much deeper and richer than mere pacifism.

 Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. ⁵³ Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? ⁵⁴ But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?”

.....peter did something similar earlier..

²¹ From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. ²² And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, “Far be it from you, Lord! This shall never happen to you.” ²³ But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”


I believe that Jesus was once again rebuking Peter. Before, Peter used words. But in the garden, Peter used a sword. I do truly believe that when Jesus was telling peter that if he continues with his hot temper that he would reap what he sowed with violence ( live by the sword ). And just maybe Jesus knew the motives in peters heart when he struck out - maybe pride. Because not long after this, he would betray Jesus in his heart.

You're compartmentalizing. You're assuming one can be a Christian and not be anti-violence or anti-revenge. Just because the disciples had a sword, Jesus didn't go on crusades. I have a gun but I'm anti-violence.

sentient 6 wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

sentient 6 wrote:

Gandalf the White wrote:

No but I am. I also think most people confuse "pacifist" with "do-nothing-ist."

Well, lets define our terms then. Scripturally, what does it mean to be a christian pacifist ?

Frankly, being a "Christian pacifist" is kinda like being a Christian Bible reader. It's a silly term.

But from my own approach:

You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matt. 5:38-39)

Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. (Matt. 5:43-48, Luke 6:27-28)

Put your sword back in its place...for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. (Matt. 26:52)

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Matt. 5:9)

This is what makes a "Christian pacifist".

Sure, I would agree that this is simply part of real Christian teaching. But if you believe that people have a right to protect themselves and their family, that there are times for war and that Christians can serve in combat....then  are you really a pacifist ?

Just because there's a time for war doesn't mean God likes it. That same passage (Ecclesiastes 3:1- also says there's a time to "refrain from embracing". Shall we use that verse to never hug our children or our wives?

So I know there's a time for war, but I disagree with it. And Christians can serve in combat because we have the freedom to choose that. And yes, I have a right to protect my family, but does that mean I have to kill someone to protect them?

Does all this also mean that I'm pro-violence or pro-revenge?

Keep in mind the unseen war.

I'm certainly no pacifist when it comes to the unseen war.

There is no specific time for the unseen war, it is a constant battle between light and dark.

God gave us the whole armour of God so that we may stand (Ephesians 6).

The whole armour of God is not for chickens, fraidy cats, or for those who give up too easily.

You can't be a wimp and expect to wear the whole armour of God.

I have quite a few thoughts on this but no time to lay them out. If it doesn't get locked, I'll update.

d@v!d wrote:I have quite a few thoughts on this but no time to lay them out. If it doesn't get locked, I'll update.

If you are referring to the post I just made about the unseen war, perhaps you should just keep your thoughts to yourself.

Don't try to twist what I'm saying. Don't try to make it look like I'm saying something when I'm really not.

I'm not talking about going out looking for demons under every rock. I'm not talking about being a stuck up, self-righteous hypocrite either.

If you're going to try to change the subject by making those strawman arguments, please keep it to yourself.

If that wasn't your intention, perhaps someone else needed it.

Yup, this one's done...