Is this how persecution starts ?

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/01/13/christians-rally-to-defend-fire-chief-who-wrote-anti-gay-book/


Freedom of religion ? Only if the secularists agree with it. Otherwise.....they will get ya !

Mozilla CEO resigns...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/03/brendan-eich-anti-gay-moz_n_5085006.html

sentient 6 wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/01/13/christians-rally-to-defend-fire-chief-who-wrote-anti-gay-book/


Freedom of religion ? Only if the secularists agree with it. Otherwise.....they will get ya !

Except discrimination against christians.....ah, tolerance the most misunderstood word in the english language!....along with discrimination

"“I will not tolerate discrimination of any kind within my administration.”

sentient 6 wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/01/13/christians-rally-to-defend-fire-chief-who-wrote-anti-gay-book/


Freedom of religion ? Only if the secularists agree with it. Otherwise.....they will get ya !

Is this how persecution starts ?

Yes.

It's the means they'll use to devalue us. We will be labeled as hateful and oppressors. Then, they'll take that to justify taking away our livelyhoods, just like in the Cochran case. Later, move to the ghetto, then back to the lions.

There's a very interesting review by a reviewer named J. Gordon and subsequent dialog with him and other reviewers on the Cochran book on Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A10ZUFMEBHS1P5/ref=pdp_new_read_full_review_link?ie=UTF8&page=1&sort_by=MostRecentReview#R303IAMTXE6HU5

Song: The Wrong One
Artist: The Crucified
Album: The Pillars Of Humanity

you live double-standard, the law of convenience
such as the right to freedom of speech
name any religion - you'll take the lecture
but you'll pull the plug once Jesus Christ is preached?

It's amazing, 10 years ago would any of us have thought that gay marriage would be even considered appropriate anywhere?  Now they are persecuting anyone and everyone they can because they simply see the lifestyle as wrong and don't extol the depraved lifestyle as liberals seem necessary.  They are suing florists, bakers and everyone they can for holding the same position obama and hillary clinton shared at one point.  This is all beyond absurd.

Oh and also liberals seem to be doing everything within their power to bring up the backward cult islam that embraces a pedophile, slavery and utilizing suicide bombings.

Peter who was Vaak wrote:It's amazing, 10 years ago would any of us have thought that gay marriage would be even considered appropriate anywhere?  Now they are persecuting anyone and everyone they can because they simply see the lifestyle as wrong and don't extol the depraved lifestyle as liberals seem necessary.  They are suing florists, bakers and everyone they can for holding the same position obama and hillary clinton shared at one point.  This is all beyond absurd.

Oh and also liberals seem to be doing everything within their power to bring up the backward cult islam that embraces a pedophile, slavery and utilizing suicide bombings.

Yep! Spot on! It's amazing how quickly (in the last 10-15 years) things have accelerated towards oblivion.. The west is self immolating, as it abandons the absolutes, truth and freedoms that were built on a judeo/christian heritage. If you suggested the idea of gay marriage even around 2004 the idea would've been scoffed at by my most people, yet now it seems to be speeding towards majority view. In all of history - thousands of years - homosexual marriage was never implemented by the world at large. Sure ancient Rome had vile emporers etc who practiced sick sexual practices, yet there was no ''gay marriage'' back then. 

I remember being a young christian in the mid 80s and I believed Jesus would come back by the year 2000. When it rolled around I didn't sense that was the time.....Yet the last few years of quick self destruction throughout the west (yes it had been building for some time) speaks to me that we really are near the end....The 21st century could make the 20th century's wars seem like nothing...if it lasts that long.

Honestly, no.  It's my opinion/observation that we as Americans have something of a persecution complex where we're often seeing it or seeing it come or whatever whether it's here or not.  There is no persecution for the sake of Christ in the United States, at least by any reasonable definition of "persecution," in my opinion.  I'm not saying that there never will be or never could be, but not today, no.  Persecution is only all too real, but I don't think that believers in Indonesia or Iraq or places like that would have incidents like these show up as a blip on their persecution radar.  Churches are still tax exempt in this country (I am sure that this won't last forever, but at least for the moment)!

I do believe that separation of church and state is a great thing, and things get messy in a hurry when that line is blurred or crossed.  Even in this thread, I'm seeing political statements, and frankly political statements that are slanderous to those who hold different positions, as sadly misrepresentation and demonizing are normal in political issues/discussions.  Often when "we" are slandered/labeled/misrepresented ("homophobic" or "hate gay people" or whatever) "we" are just experiencing the back edge of the exact same blade that we use on those with whom we disagree, and I can scarcely imagine that it's anything close to "persecution" in what I would see as the legitimate sense.


Sort of side note -- I don't believe that Revelation or other apocalyptic (or really anything, specifically) portions of the Bible are meant to be read as though they were written directly to 21st century Americans.  I think we have a tendency to read them as though they are without even realizing it -- I know I did until my own subconsciously accepted perspective was pointed out to me, at which time I immediately recognized both that I tended to do so and that it was illegitimate.  For what it's worth.

edit -- freerange, this last part now looks like it's pointed at you.  It wasn't, I wrote it before your post was up.

Grindboy wrote:Honestly, no.  It's my opinion/observation that we as Americans have something of a persecution complex where we're often seeing it or seeing it come or whatever whether it's here or not.  There is no persecution for the sake of Christ in the United States, at least by any reasonable definition of "persecution," in my opinion.  I'm not saying that there never will be or never could be, but not today, no.  Persecution is only all too real, but I don't think that believers in Indonesia or Iraq or places like that would have incidents like these show up as a blip on their persecution radar.  Churches are still tax exempt in this country (I am sure that this won't last forever, but at least for the moment)!

I do believe that separation of church and state is a great thing, and things get messy in a hurry when that line is blurred or crossed.  Even in this thread, I'm seeing political statements, and frankly political statements that are slanderous to those who hold different positions, as sadly misrepresentation and demonizing are normal in political issues/discussions.  Often when "we" are slandered/labeled/misrepresented ("homophobic" or "hate gay people" or whatever) "we" are just experiencing the back edge of the exact same blade that we use on those with whom we disagree, and I can scarcely imagine that it's anything close to "persecution" in what I would see as the legitimate sense.


Sort of side note -- I don't believe that Revelation or other apocalyptic (or really anything, specifically) portions of the Bible are meant to be read as though they were written directly to 21st century Americans.  I think we have a tendency to read them as though they are without even realizing it -- I know I did until my own subconsciously accepted perspective was pointed out to me, at which time I immediately recognized both that I tended to do so and that it was illegitimate.  For what it's worth.

edit -- freerange, this last part now looks like it's pointed at you.  It wasn't, I wrote it before your post was up.

I mostly agree with you, but I do think that this Cochran incident is the begging of something.

Grindboy wrote: There is no persecution for the sake of Christ in the United States, at least by any reasonable definition of "persecution," in my opinion. 

Well, I believe this is how it could start. Homosexual politics could be one of the things that could start the " world " believing that it is " good " to limit Christian free speech. I could easily see a day when telling people that they are sinners would be considered " hate " speech. But I do agree partly with your comments on revelation.

Now, if I uphold Jesus' standard for marriage as taught in Matthew 19 would it not have the same effect ? I don't know how anyone can separate Jesus from his moral commands.

Adam wrote:Song: The Wrong One
Artist: The Crucified
Album: The Pillars Of Humanity

you live double-standard, the law of convenience
such as the right to freedom of speech
name any religion - you'll take the lecture
but you'll pull the plug once Jesus Christ is preached?

..good song...good call.

sentient 6 wrote:

Grindboy wrote: There is no persecution for the sake of Christ in the United States, at least by any reasonable definition of "persecution," in my opinion. 

Well, I believe this is how it could start. Homosexual politics could be one of the things that could start the " world " believing that it is " good " to limit Christian free speech. I could easily see a day when telling people that they are sinners would be considered " hate " speech. But I do agree partly with your comments on revelation.

Now, if I uphold Jesus' standard for marriage as taught in Matthew 19 would it not have the same effect ? I don't know how anyone can separate Jesus from his moral commands.

In these post modern times of moral relativism, the issue they raise against Christianity for it's condemnation of homosexuality makes a lot more sense than Rome's justification to throw us to the lions calling us cannibals for taking the Lord's supper. Again, this quite plausibly is the beginning.

d@v!d wrote:

In these post modern times of moral relativism, the issue they raise against Christianity for it's condemnation of homosexuality makes a lot more sense than Rome's justification to throw us to the lions calling us cannibals for taking the Lord's supper. Again, this quite plausibly is the beginning.

If you look at Pauls argument in Romans 1, you and I both know whats truly behind this. In addition to what you mentioned about Rome, Caesar worship also played a large role in persecution.

I've been sayin' that we are Rome in reverse. Rome started out hostile to Christianity, and then ended up enjoying state protection and ended up being favored religion. And now, we are following the exact opposite pattern.

sentient 6 wrote:

Grindboy wrote: There is no persecution for the sake of Christ in the United States, at least by any reasonable definition of "persecution," in my opinion. 

Well, I believe this is how it could start. Homosexual politics could be one of the things that could start the " world " believing that it is " good " to limit Christian free speech. I could easily see a day when telling people that they are sinners would be considered " hate " speech. But I do agree partly with your comments on revelation.

Now, if I uphold Jesus' standard for marriage as taught in Matthew 19 would it not have the same effect ? I don't know how anyone can separate Jesus from his moral commands.

You use "could" three times, and with that I'll agree.  It's certainly possible, and even plausible.  It wouldn't surprise me a bit, actually.

Part of my post that may or may not have made sense was responding, really, to people in my life who (and I think this is common) read things like Revelation from a modern American point of view as though it is specifically about the US and therefore are certain a great tribulation is promised us in our future.  So when the culture becomes increasingly secular it's seen as slipping inevitably toward terrible persecution.  "Here it comes, it's starting!"  I think that's a mistake.  As church and state continue to interweave and retract from one another (such as the government employee losing his job referenced above) and those lines wiggle to work out the differences between free speech and religious freedom and dealing with the consequences of one's actions, where others see persecution I often see reasonable cause. 

Just explaining myself.  It sounds like we may generally agree (ha ha, too bad for you, because I'm wrong a LOT!).

Grindboy wrote:

sentient 6 wrote:

Grindboy wrote: There is no persecution for the sake of Christ in the United States, at least by any reasonable definition of "persecution," in my opinion. 

Part of my post that may or may not have made sense was responding, really, to people in my life who (and I think this is common) read things like Revelation from a modern American point of view as though it is specifically about the US and therefore are certain a great tribulation is promised us in our future.  So when the culture becomes increasingly secular it's seen as slipping inevitably toward terrible persecution.  "Here it comes, it's starting!"  I think that's a mistake.  As church and state continue to interweave and retract from one another (such as the government employee losing his job referenced above) and those lines wiggle to work out the differences between free speech and religious freedom and dealing with the consequences of one's actions, where others see persecution I often see reasonable cause. 

Just explaining myself.  It sounds like we may generally agree (ha ha, too bad for you, because I'm wrong a LOT!).

Far enough, and I really do agree with you and  how some people view the US in light of Revelation.

Even though losing ones employment is very, very bad, I don't want to see the day when you can't share the Gospel because its viewed as hate speech. I don't really see a day in the future with people being throw in jail because they won't deny Jesus Christ in their personal lives. but I do see it as a possible day coming for someone who told someone that homosexuality is a sin and they may be judged in hell.

You will see even more people criminally punished for free speech surrounding homosexual marriage and relations.  That is exactly what happened to this fire chief.  He has been completely and utterly discriminated for having a public opinion.  He should take this to the courts.

When a few more common citizens are illegally reprimanded this way, look for the focus to come to the church.  Remember the case a few years ago now about the homosexuals who sued that bakery for not wanting to do their wedding cake?   Next, they will be suing Christian pastors who refuse to do their ceremonies.  That, too, will go to court.  However, in our current political climate, religioius freedoms will be stripped away and they will jail clergy for refusing.  They will strip churches of their tax-exempt status (killing some smaller congregations).  This will happen in our lifetimes.

Did we see this coming 10 years ago?  Yes!  When Hollywood put the first openly homosexual character in a tv series back in the 90's, (Ellen & Rosanne shows come to mind), we knew the push to make this wrong seem right.  But, did we even bother to change the channel as Christians?  No!  All we do nowadays is cry about our rights being violated when we did nothing about it to start with.

I have felt for quite some time that the concept of "Intolerance" as it is used today is really just a protective blanket used to make griefing Christians alright. On one side you will have a Christian who does not believe gay marriage is holy in God's eyes, but is accepting of them as people. However then on the other side you have the LGBT community which upon learning said Christian holds a stance opposite to theirs we are suddenly intolerant. Indeed its similar to racism as the person accusing is in fact the one exercising the intolerance/racism etc.

Its pretty much come to a point where we have outsiders translating the Word of God for us and telling us what it does and doesnt mean. By outsider I mean a non-Christian. I think persecution started quite some time ago, although not to an extreme degree. To me intolerance is a game that people play to legally defame Christians. At least thats the way it appears to me.

Most accusations you see about these sort of things are beyond ridiculous.

What standards of marriage will the proponents of gay " marriage " use to critisize this relationship ?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/01/17/woman-plans-to-marry-her-father-after-two-years-dating/

Christians tried to tell the country that we'd slide down a slippery slope once homosexual marriage was legalized and seen as normal behavior.  Looks like we are losing some footing right there.

Is it just me, or do some on the left have a double standard in regards to making cakes that violate their beliefs ?

http://www.wretchedradio.com/podcast.cfm?h=99B4FC65C53397B6B6EEF4A1A669A9FF&page=1

sentient 6 wrote:Is it just me, or do some on the left have a double standard in regards to making cakes that violate their beliefs ?

http://www.wretchedradio.com/podcast.cfm?h=99B4FC65C53397B6B6EEF4A1A669A9FF&page=1

Nice analysis.