Persecution of Christians in America

Interesting article. While no longer a Christian, emphasis on loving one's enemies is something I have appreciated growing up in the Mennonite church.

Yeah, interesting article. I'm not sure I totally agree with it, but it seems to have some merit.

Yes...I agree with this article.

It is what I have been saying for a long, LONG time.

There is a huge difference between...

A) Bible believing Christians

..and..

B) Church system believing "Churchians" who like to call themselves "Christians".

I do not think that "the tribulation" will be a time of fleshly war and bloodshed. But rather it will be a time of false Christianity and a time of false peace. It will be a time when more and more people are influenced by this false Christianity and false peace rather than the TRUE prince of peace, Jesus Christ.

That is not to say that there won't be fleshly violence and bloodshed, but from a Christian perspective, the war is not against flesh and blood (Ephesians 6:12).

We are NOT to fear those who can harm the flesh body, but rather we are to fear Him who can destroy both body and soul (Matthew 10:28).

Christ said that wars and rumors of war would come, but the end is not yet.

It is when they start crying "Peace...Peace!" that sudden destruction comes.

This religious "Churchian" system is starting to become a political system now.

That should get the attention of alot of people who are familiar with their Bible.

" but as Dr. Beckum has now learned, you cannot talk about what Jesus taught regarding enemy love. That is off-limits and heresy. "


In a nutshell, I agree with some things that were said, but for the most part I think he is really overstating the case.

Also, there can be a danger in turning christianity into a social justice system - were that is the main emphasis. One were the emphasis is more on what we do to be " Christ like " rather than what Christ did, for us.

sentient 6 wrote:" but as Dr. Beckum has now learned, you cannot talk about what Jesus taught regarding enemy love. That is off-limits and heresy. "


In a nutshell, I agree with some things that were said, but for the most part I think he is really overstating the case.

I don't think he's overstating the case. I think he's pretty well spot on.

I see it like this...

How do "Churchians" treat those that they disagree with?

They start boycotting stuff. They shun people. They turn away from them and don't want anything to do with them. They call names. They criticize. They ridicule. They say they're going to hell.

And they call this "standing up for Jesus".

If these "Churchians" see that you are not joining them in "standing up for Jesus", they consider it off-limits and heresy.

Mortal wrote:

sentient 6 wrote:" but as Dr. Beckum has now learned, you cannot talk about what Jesus taught regarding enemy love. That is off-limits and heresy. "


In a nutshell, I agree with some things that were said, but for the most part I think he is really overstating the case.

I don't think he's overstating the case. I think he's pretty well spot on.

I see it like this...

How do "Churchians" treat those that they disagree with?

They start boycotting stuff. They shun people. They turn away from them and don't want anything to do with them. They call names. They criticize. They ridicule. They say they're going to hell.

And they call this "standing up for Jesus".

If these "Churchians" see that you are not joining them in "standing up for Jesus", they consider it off-limits and heresy.

Well first, you seem to be suggesting by your use of " churchians " that these people cannot be true Christians. I believe people can truly be a born " from above " Christian, while being misguided on how they handle things like social issues. That said, I still believe this is a bit over blown because I just don't see it to the extent that you are saying in among the real Christian community that I am in or around.

For something like this I wouldn't want to generalize, but I would look at everything on a case by case basis. Maybe you can list some specific examples that will back up your view. Now, I am not saying that Christians don't over react to the secular culture sometimes, but is this the real crisis in the Christian church today ?

sentient 6 wrote:Well first, you seem to be suggesting by your use of " churchians " that these people cannot be true Christians. I believe people can truly be a born " from above " Christian, while being misguided on how they handle things like social issues.

I'm not saying that "Churchians" can't turn things around and become Christians,

But as long as they are caught up in the worldly church system, and keep putting the worldly church system before the teachings of Christ,

Then they are simply just "Churchians".

sentient 6 wrote:That said, I still believe this is a bit over blown because I just don't see it to the extent that you are saying in among the real Christian community that I am in or around.

Try looking at it as a whole instead of just focusing on what you see in your own personal community.

sentient 6 wrote:For something like this I wouldn't want to generalize, but I would look at everything on a case by case basis.

I don't think I am generalizing the big picture as a whole.

I don't think I'm even generalizing about any individual.

I agree that each individual is unique, and that we should give each individual the benefit of the doubt.

sentient 6 wrote:Maybe you can list some specific examples that will back up your view.

Well, see? It seems that you think I am generalizing on individuals.

I am not calling any particular individuals "Churchians"

Therefore I can not provide any specific examples that would to point to any individual as being a "Churchian".

I wouldn't feel the need to point any individuals out anyway, because that is not how we identify them.

We identify them by their fruits.

sentient 6 wrote:Now, I am not saying that Christians don't over react to the secular culture sometimes, but is this the real crisis in the Christian church today ?

I feel that it is a very real crisis in the Christian church. And I feel that it will continue to be a crisis until Christ returns and puts a stop to it.

Here is a good sermon by John Butler Book titled "Churchianity vs. Christianity".

It is not a deep Bible study. It is simply a sermon which makes some great points in order to make you think.

(P.S. - This is not an invitation to change the subject and start going after John Butler Book. It is simply a sermon that I find interesting and want to share here.)

Here is the sermon...

John Butler Book - Churchianity vs. Christianity

(P.S. Again - When the site comes up, you'll notice the player there. Simply click on the player where the "play" arrow would normally be, and sit back and listen.)

Mortal wrote:

sentient 6

Maybe you can list some specific examples that will back up your view.

Well, see? It seems that you think I am generalizing on individuals.

I am not calling any particular individuals "Churchians"

I know. But what are some specific examples of what you feel is the problem.

Mortal wrote:

I'm not saying that "Churchians" can't turn things around and become Christians,

But as long as they are caught up in the worldly church system, and keep putting the worldly church system before the teachings of Christ,

Then they are simply just "Churchians".

See, this is were specific examples will help. What are the things that you feel are some examples of a worldly church system ? I know that Christianity can be turned into a religious system, where people get a false sense of salvation. But thats probably not quite what your talking about ?

sentient 6 wrote:I know. But what are some specific examples of what you feel is the problem.

sentient 6 wrote:See, this is were specific examples will help. What are the things that you feel are some examples of a worldly church system ? I know that Christianity can be turned into a religious system, where people get a false sense of salvation. But thats probably not quite what your talking about ?

There is a resounding trail of a worldly church system all throughout Scripture.

Christ dealt with it in His day. Paul dealt with it in his day also.

Paul actually came out of the worldly church system and became a Christian.

Scripture itself gives us plenty of examples that there is indeed a worldly church system.

sentient 6 wrote:" but as Dr. Beckum has now learned, you cannot talk about what Jesus taught regarding enemy love. That is off-limits and heresy. "


In a nutshell, I agree with some things that were said, but for the most part I think he is really overstating the case.

Also, there can be a danger in turning christianity into a social justice system - were that is the main emphasis. One were the emphasis is more on what we do to be " Christ like " rather than what Christ did, for us.

I just reread it. I agree with you that this is an overstated issue.

undead toaster wrote:Interesting article. While no longer a Christian, emphasis on loving one's enemies is something I have appreciated growing up in the Mennonite church.

Beckum sounds like a Mennonite.

d@v!d wrote:I just reread it. I agree with you that this is an overstated issue.

d@v!d wrote:Beckum sounds like a Mennonite.

I don't think it is an overstated issue.

And you sound like one who is trying to change the subject in a desperate attempt to gain recruits to help you run Beckum into the dirt.

I really hope that you get ZERO recruits.

So wait... you guys think the issue is overstated? A professor getting fired for preaching Jesus' love and compassion from a Christian university?

Yikes.

I agree with the article. And I agree with the transcript of what he preached. I've been ostracized because I don't fit in or am "too liberal" or whatever. I think he has a very interesting point.

Gandalf the White wrote:So wait... you guys think the issue is overstated? A professor getting fired for preaching Jesus' love and compassion from a Christian university?

Yikes.

I agree with the article. And I agree with the transcript of what he preached. I've been ostracized because I don't fit in or am "too liberal" or whatever. I think he has a very interesting point.

No, the instance is sad and wrong. I believe that it is fairly isolated and that's why I say it's overstated.

d@v!d wrote:No, the instance is sad and wrong. I believe that it is fairly isolated and that's why I say it's overstated.

Of course Beckum's case is an isolated incident, It only happened to him.

But that is not to say that this sort of thing can not and does not happen to others around the world.

Beckum's case is part of a much bigger problem that is not at all isolated.

While I said I can appreciate what he has to say, for what it's worth I think he makes the same mistakes that people who say Christians are persecuted in the US do. He takes one incident and makes it out to be a widespread problem. That incident is a major problem obviously, and I'm sure there's some merit in his argument, but calling it persecution on a large scale is a stretch.

undead toaster wrote:He takes one incident and makes it out to be a widespread problem.

No he's not.

He's not saying that his particular incident is a widespread problem.

He's saying that his particular incident is PART of a widespread problem.

Take for example the way that the religious "Churchian" system treated Christ and cried out "CRUCIFY HIM!!"

The religious "Churchian" system is nothing new, and is certainly not isolated.

Just some points to further the discussion so we don't get all... you know...

1. If the mission statement of the university is this:
“At MidAmerica Nazarene University we encourage the exchange of ideas and individuals are free to express their individual perspective and opinions, even when those opinions may not reflect the official policy or practices of our university, our core values or our affiliations.”

Why did Dr. Beckum get fired? Especially when their associated with the Church of the Nazarene, who's motto is "To make Christ-like disciples in all the nations." Was Dr. Beckum discouraging people to not be like Jesus? Why did he quote all that Scripture?

2. Dr. Beckum's main point was that American Christians (in general) are revenge and violence minded - in his transcript he pointed to the fact that American Sniper made so much money in it's opening weekend. This was one of a couple attitudes that he pointed out Jesus not having.

3. In the article, the writer says this:
"In many Christian circles you can talk about the Bible all you want, a you can speak as much Christianese as possible, but as Dr. Beckum has now learned, you cannot talk about what Jesus taught regarding enemy love. That is off-limits and heresy."

I know some of you may not think this is true, but it happens here all the time.

Case in point, I posted a link to my blog with a little piece I wrote about 50 Shades of Grey and (what I call) the mistreatment of those who see the movie by Christians. Reading back, people got outright vehement about how bad the movie was - totally missing the point I was making about loving people as Jesus loved them and so forth.

I didn't feel persecuted but I'll admit I got pretty pissed off because people were so focused on the movie and other people's behavior that something I worked really hard on was ripped up and made pointless.

I'm sure some folks don't see this kind of thing, and that makes sense. But some folks do and I think that makes it more widespread that we may realize.

Christ was not talking just to hear Himself talk when He said...

Matthew 10:[22] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

John 15:[18] If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

Seriously...Don't tell me this is an isolated incident.

You make some great points, Gandalf.

Gandalf the White wrote:Was Dr. Beckum discouraging people to not be like Jesus?

No and yes.

No...because he was not discouraging them from following the true Christ, he was encouraging it.

Yes...because he was encouraging them to turn away from their own made up/false idea of Christ.

" One is a movement of people who want to live and be like Jesus. "

Those that agree with the author basic premise, can you explain to the fullest extent possible on what this means to you ?

....also do you feel someone must be a " pacifist " to truly be Christian ?