Prove me wrong

Dustofyears wrote:Have a feeling the old myth that most Christian bands are copy and paste of Secular bands might be exactly that- a Myth.

Not sure whether or not I agree yet, but there's a couple of other factors against

1. The original bands tend to do better because they have something to say musically, we forget the copycats
2. If you listen to anything enough you'll notice enough subtleties to make it appear unique.

On the second point I never really linked Deliverance with Metallica because I listened to them so much and enjoyed them (partly lack of musical experience too), but once told of the connection I could see it. Even Jimmy admitted on a podcast a few years ago that he repurposed Master riffs. The first point comes in here too as Jimmy has oodles of talent to make this approach work.

Yeah, I agree in that I always felt like Precious Death had their own thing going. But up until that point I never paid any attention to acts that could be classified as Alterna-metal, so wouldn't really have anything to compare to. Thought they were great though.

Another band that just really stood out to me as something that I'd never heard the likes of before was Extol on their 1998 debut. I didn't even know what to make of it initially, but after a few listens I "got it" and was enthralled from that point on. But again, since I wasn't exposed to really any secular technical black metal at that time, it just sounded totally fresh and unique to my ears.

There may be another comparable band out there from before, but I don't know what that would be.

Pethead wrote:

Sweet mercy, I hope Torn Flesh is unique.

Hahaha!
Oh man, agreed.

elManique wrote:

Dustofyears wrote:Have a feeling the old myth that most Christian bands are copy and paste of Secular bands might be exactly that- a Myth.

Not sure whether or not I agree yet, but there's a couple of other factors against

1. The original bands tend to do better because they have something to say musically, we forget the copycats
2. If you listen to anything enough you'll notice enough subtleties to make it appear unique.

On the second point I never really linked Deliverance with Metallica because I listened to them so much and enjoyed them (partly lack of musical experience too), but once told of the connection I could see it. Even Jimmy admitted on a podcast a few years ago that he repurposed Master riffs. The first point comes in here too as Jimmy has oodles of talent to make this approach work.

Here's another factor that is becoming clear and one I overlooked and forgot about; A number of Christians don't listen to secular music and especially Metal. My introduction to metal was through a cousin of mine who liked Motley Crue, Cinderella, White snake etc. And among the glam stuff was an underground metal band called, Metallica. Of course, like everyone else, I loved Bon Jovi Slippery when wet and Def Leppard when they were big, but when I became a christian I got rid of all that and cleansed my soul of the "evil secular" music, and Bride, Silence is madness album, was the first true heavy metal record I owned. Point being, for years after that I stopped listening to Secular music and couldn't tell you then that Saint were a copy and Paste of Judas Priest or Deliverance first couple of albums (bar the vocals) a copy and paste of generic thrash (Metallica, Slayer, anthrax etc). To me they were original bands with their own riginal sound- so let's factor that in there too.

And let's not forget, it's a small niche of listeners and just about the same cult status of listeners that have been listening to it over the years, and those listeners don't forget about copy paste bands like saint or the like- to those listeners Saint is their Judas Priest if or not they know that and most of us are in aging bracket so no one else really cares about christian metal.

Influences are fine, everyone is influenced by something and you might hear a bit of this and a bit of that which is normal, But it's when the band has something unique enough to call their own and is a bigger part of that equation than the influences themselves (to my mind Kneeways) that it can be called- original. I suppose a better way to get down to the nub of things is by pointing out the bands (talking mostly the bigger names of the golden age here) that are Copy and paste. Would that be a short list? My bet we will make mention of the same bands, and that list could likely be shorter than we think (maybe. It's the point of this thread).

Thanks for your input, it helped put other elements into perspective.

Deadpool wrote:Yeah, I agree in that I always felt like Precious Death had their own thing going. But up until that point I never paid any attention to acts that could be classified as Alterna-metal, so wouldn't really have anything to compare to. Thought they were great though.

Another band that just really stood out to me as something that I'd never heard the likes of before was Extol on their 1998 debut. I didn't even know what to make of it initially, but after a few listens I "got it" and was enthralled from that point on. But again, since I wasn't exposed to really any secular technical black metal at that time, it just sounded totally fresh and unique to my ears.

There may be another comparable band out there from before, but I don't know what that would be.

Haven't heard a huge amount of Extol so I got nothing... Member when Vomoth (swear that's Jayson) and then Horde first released their album I thought that was original. Until I listened to Dark Throne a few years later. Being original in the Black metal world now must be quite the challenge I imagine.

Dustofyears wrote:

elManique wrote:

Dustofyears wrote:Have a feeling the old myth that most Christian bands are copy and paste of Secular bands might be exactly that- a Myth.

Not sure whether or not I agree yet, but there's a couple of other factors against

1. The original bands tend to do better because they have something to say musically, we forget the copycats
2. If you listen to anything enough you'll notice enough subtleties to make it appear unique.

On the second point I never really linked Deliverance with Metallica because I listened to them so much and enjoyed them (partly lack of musical experience too), but once told of the connection I could see it. Even Jimmy admitted on a podcast a few years ago that he repurposed Master riffs. The first point comes in here too as Jimmy has oodles of talent to make this approach work.

Here's another factor that is becoming clear and one I overlooked and forgot about; A number of Christians don't listen to secular music and especially Metal. My introduction to metal was through a cousin of mine who liked Motley Crue, Cinderella, White snake etc. And among the glam stuff was an underground metal band called, Metallica. Of course, like everyone else, I loved Bon Jovi Slippery when wet and Def Leppard when they were big, but when I became a christian I got rid of all that and cleansed my soul of the "evil secular" music, and Bride, Silence is madness album, was the first true heavy metal record I owned. Point being, for years after that I stopped listening to Secular music and couldn't tell you then that Saint were a copy and Paste of Judas Priest or Deliverance first couple of albums (bar the vocals) a copy and paste of generic thrash (Metallica, Slayer, anthrax etc). To me they were original bands with their own riginal sound- so let's factor that in there too.

And let's not forget, it's a small niche of listeners and just about the same cult status of listeners that have been listening to it over the years, and those listeners don't forget about copy paste bands like saint or the like- to those listeners Saint is their Judas Priest if or not they know that and most of us are in aging bracket so no one else really cares about christian metal.

Influences are fine, everyone is influenced by something and you might hear a bit of this and a bit of that which is normal, But it's when the band has something unique enough to call their own and is a bigger part of that equation than the influences themselves (to my mind Kneeways) that it can be called- original. I suppose a better way to get down to the nub of things is by pointing out the bands (talking mostly the bigger names of the golden age here) that are Copy and paste. Would that be a short list? My bet we will make mention of the same bands, and that list could likely be shorter than we think (maybe. It's the point of this thread).

Thanks for your input, it helped put other elements into perspective.

That‘s true for me. Grew up with Bon Jovi but when I changed to harder stuff I was in a Christian only phase so I never listened to secular thrash. To this day I haven‘t consciously listened to a Slayer record, for example, so I wouldn‘t know what they sound like to begin with nor which Christian act resembles them.

The first Living Sacrifice album is pure Slayer worship.

Black Rider wrote:The first Living Sacrifice album is pure Slayer worship.

It is. I actually heard LS first and loved it (still do). Then when I heard Slayer, I recognized the similarity right away.

I still wish LS would’ve stuck to emulating Slayer.

Pethead wrote:

Black Rider wrote:The first Living Sacrifice album is pure Slayer worship.

It is. I actually heard LS first and loved it (still do). Then when I heard Slayer, I recognized the similarity right away.

I still wish LS would’ve stuck to emulating Slayer.

Agreed. That first LS has some moments that are just, still, unmatched. And an amazing production. Wish that they would have stayed on that train.

The next two are fantastic in many ways as well. But the vocal choice on Nonexistent just doesn't work for me.

Like, at all.

To this day I don't understand what D.J. was going for there. It's like mumble-grind or something, but it's just not benefiting the music in any way. 
And then on top of that it's pushed WAY way too hot in the mix making it even more obnoxious.

The drumming also. Somehow it sounds kind of, I don't know, sloppy to me on that album. Which is weird because I know that Lance is a laser-beam player, super tight and focused. So I don't really know why the drumming on NE sounds like that to me, but it just doesn't feel synced somehow.

It's a hard record to listen to, but the music underneath is SO great.

Whoops, I'm totally hijacking this thread huh...sorry, you just got me thinkin'.  

Dustofyears wrote:

Deadpool wrote:Yeah, I agree in that I always felt like Precious Death had their own thing going. But up until that point I never paid any attention to acts that could be classified as Alterna-metal, so wouldn't really have anything to compare to. Thought they were great though.

Another band that just really stood out to me as something that I'd never heard the likes of before was Extol on their 1998 debut. I didn't even know what to make of it initially, but after a few listens I "got it" and was enthralled from that point on. But again, since I wasn't exposed to really any secular technical black metal at that time, it just sounded totally fresh and unique to my ears.

There may be another comparable band out there from before, but I don't know what that would be.

Haven't heard a huge amount of Extol so I got nothing... Member when Vomoth (swear that's Jayson) and then Horde first released their album I thought that was original. Until I listened to Dark Throne a few years later. Being original in the Black metal world now must be quite the challenge I imagine.

Yeah, I mean some would argue the veracity of calling Extol black-metal I suppose (Kerrick will probably correct me on this, because he's forgotten more about black metal than I'll ever know ) , but that's the label I was told when first exposed to them. And at that time I hadn't heard what is traditionally labeled as BM so had no frame of reference. So that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

But still, I've never heard anything quite like them and feel that they are very original and identifiable in their sound and technique.

^LOL.  Funny you say that, because early on in my Christian metal journey I remember being gently corrected that Extol was never black metal but instead primarily progressive death metal by someone on Aletheian's now-defunct forum.

That being said, Lengsel was a black metal side-project [their first album, anyways] from some of the Extol guys and it's very good!

Kerrick wrote:^LOL.  Funny you say that, because early on in my Christian metal journey I remember being gently corrected that Extol was never black metal but instead primarily progressive death metal by someone on Aletheian's now-defunct forum.

That being said, Lengsel was a black metal side-project [their first album, anyways] from some of the Extol guys and it's very good!

Well the term Progressive certainly fits. Though as you know I've always thought of Death metal as being defined by those low gutturals which is not a benchmark of Extol, really. Peter generally sits up in those higher banshee limbs. 
So how 'bout we ride the fence and call them Progressive Black Metal?  You and I can start a trend of redefining everything!    

Oh, and thanks a bunch for the Lengsel lead, now I'll have to chase THAT too!! 

Hahaha you're welcome to call 'em whatever you want!    After all, what are words anyways?  

The vocals are definitely one of the more major defining characteristics of death and black metal, though I'd argue the guitars are the primary differentiators.  Death metal is typically more chugga-chugga whereas black metal has that tremolo-picking style, for example.  Though there's a very large grey area.  Either way, enjoy!

Pethead wrote:

Black Rider wrote:The first Living Sacrifice album is pure Slayer worship.

It is. I actually heard LS first and loved it (still do). Then when I heard Slayer, I recognized the similarity right away.

I still wish LS would’ve stuck to emulating Slayer.

I too, heard this album before I got into Slayer. And yet the emergence of the Living Sacrifice sound is ever present within.  It's a good, straight forward debut and thrash album. But it's no Seasons of the Abyss or Reign in blood (IMO).

Christian alternatives make sense from a marketing position too for a variety of reasons. Minds me of those cringe t-shirts like God's Gym and God and Moses... Oh dear...

Dustofyears wrote:

Pethead wrote:

Black Rider wrote:The first Living Sacrifice album is pure Slayer worship.

It is. I actually heard LS first and loved it (still do). Then when I heard Slayer, I recognized the similarity right away.

I still wish LS would’ve stuck to emulating Slayer.

I too, heard this album before I got into Slayer. And yet the emergence of the Living Sacrifice sound is ever present within.  It's a good, straight forward debut and thrash album. But it's no Seasons of the Abyss or Reign in blood (IMO).

Christian alternatives make sense from a marketing position too for a variety of reasons.

I actually prefer LS over Reign in Blood, but not over Seasons.

Deadpool wrote:

Pethead wrote:

Black Rider wrote:The first Living Sacrifice album is pure Slayer worship.

It is. I actually heard LS first and loved it (still do). Then when I heard Slayer, I recognized the similarity right away.

I still wish LS would’ve stuck to emulating Slayer.

The next two are fantastic in many ways as well. But the vocal choice on Nonexistent just doesn't work for me.

Like, at all.

To this day I don't understand what D.J. was going for there. It's like mumble-grind or something, but it's just not benefiting the music in any way. 
And then on top of that it's pushed WAY way too hot in the mix making it even more obnoxious.

The drumming also. Somehow it sounds kind of, I don't know, sloppy to me on that album. Which is weird because I know that Lance is a laser-beam player, super tight and focused. So I don't really know why the drumming on NE sounds like that to me, but it just doesn't feel synced somehow.

It's a hard record to listen to, but the music underneath is SO great.

So here's the thing. No.

Okay to be fair- fair enough. Lots of folks are not fans of that album, like Destruction comes.

I probably like it for all the reasons people don't. Like, I mean love. The drums are so relaxing to listen to, like death metal drumming asmr, and the space Lance leaves by often using a single kick drum and bare bone drum patterns in the mix opens up the great black hole of darkness in the music and lets the dense atmosphere bleed through, thus we get the sluggish feeling- least to these ears. And Dj's irrational groans sound like a man drowning in that pool of blackness, suffering endlessly. Then you got those haunting Slayer like leads but darker than Slayer. They make no sense and add to the bleak madness that is Non Existent. Even the title is bleak. Love that album!

Deadpool wrote:

Dustofyears wrote:

Deadpool wrote:Yeah, I agree in that I always felt like Precious Death had their own thing going. But up until that point I never paid any attention to acts that could be classified as Alterna-metal, so wouldn't really have anything to compare to. Thought they were great though.

Another band that just really stood out to me as something that I'd never heard the likes of before was Extol on their 1998 debut. I didn't even know what to make of it initially, but after a few listens I "got it" and was enthralled from that point on. But again, since I wasn't exposed to really any secular technical black metal at that time, it just sounded totally fresh and unique to my ears.

There may be another comparable band out there from before, but I don't know what that would be.

Haven't heard a huge amount of Extol so I got nothing... Member when Vomoth (swear that's Jayson) and then Horde first released their album I thought that was original. Until I listened to Dark Throne a few years later. Being original in the Black metal world now must be quite the challenge I imagine.

Yeah, I mean some would argue the veracity of calling Extol black-metal I suppose (Kerrick will probably correct me on this, because he's forgotten more about black metal than I'll ever know ) , but that's the label I was told when first exposed to them. And at that time I hadn't heard what is traditionally labeled as BM so had no frame of reference. So that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

But still, I've never heard anything quite like them and feel that they are very original and identifiable in their sound and technique.

I listened to some of the album- Burial. It's all over the show. There's thrash, Black metal, death, trad metal Maiden like guitar harmonies, clean vox- it's quite disturbing. Septic Flesh is bit like that. But they don't sound like Septic Flesh. They're a real mash up of genres with, what's that, a hint of praise and worship (thankfully not the banal cold play kind of a megachurch Sunday service concert).

My favorite Extol has always been Undeceived.

Pethead wrote:My favorite Extol has always been Undeceived.

I'll check it out

Mantric 
Drottnar 
Deus Invictus
All things Fallen 
Extol 
Monotheist 
Cloth 
Idle cure
August burns red
Immortal souls 
Now I'm drawing a blank lol 
Dig hay zoose woah those guys were a head of there time

Grind4christ wrote:Mantric 
Drottnar 
Deus Invictus
All things Fallen 
Extol 
Monotheist 
Cloth 
Idle cure
August burns red
Immortal souls 
Now I'm drawing a blank lol 
Dig hay zoose woah those guys were a head of there time

Woah, Jason, that has to be you! Welcome buddy!

Grind4christ wrote:Mantric 
Drottnar 
Deus Invictus
All things Fallen 
Extol 
Monotheist 
Cloth 
Idle cure
August burns red
Immortal souls 
Now I'm drawing a blank lol 
Dig hay zoose woah those guys were a head of there time

Most of those bands I have not heard of. Stopped listening to new christian metal quite some time ago.only really know the golden age bands. Idle cure, ha! Forgot about them. Had one of their albums but can't remember the name of it. Probably one of their later ones if memory serves. Love Dighayzoose. Struggle Fish is a masterpiece in alt metal funk music and second album is great too. So, hate to say it again, but they are something of a clone- that being to the band Jane's Addiction. Even so I still like them better. The other bands, wouldn't know about them.

Guess the list of copy and paste bands would be a better way to get to the gist if this.

here's some I can think of off the top of my head

Saint

X Sinner

Dighayzoose

Barren cross
 Though I might add, I really don't think musically they sound much like Maiden. Maybe in the vocal department a little but the music to me, not so much- and I have listened to a ton of Iron Maiden and a probably enough of Barren cross. What you guys think...

Deliverance- First couple albums

Mortification's Album before the S/T was very Morbid Angel influenced and Primitive Rhythm Machine Could be claimed as a Sepultra- Chaos Ad clone.

That's all that comes to mind for now.

remember people saying christian metal was all clone music- Still have my doubts- all feel free to add to the clone list, might be harder than you reckons.