Battle of the Debut (Tourniquet or Flood)

Flood debut or Tourniquet debut, which do you prefer?

Not even close.

Stop the Bleeding is an all-time "Desert Island " disc for me. Literally. When I went to Africa for 9 months in 97/98 STB made my 12-CD case list.

Stop the Bleeding by far. Polarized is good, but it’s not in the same league.

I love the Flood debut. But it doesn’t compare to STB.

It’s a win/win for Gary and Guy. They made both albums!

My apologies to all who love Tourniquet but as someone who spent a major portion of my metal loving life listening to King Diamond and placing "Them" in my top 10 albums of all time and "Abigail" in my top 20, I don't like Guy's high vocals on Stop The Bleeding. Beyond that, the debut is an amazing piece of metal. As it is, I can hardly get through some of the songs. It's unbearable. I wish it weren't so.

The clear conclusion for me is, with none of those vocals present and a 100% solid album in Polarized (I don't dislike anything about it. Songs, vocals, performances, etc), I prefer Polarized.

I like STB okay, some great songs but it feels like Guy doesn't have total control of his vocals, he would get much better on the next couple albums so for me, it's Flood.

My choice was STB.

I've stated before that I COULD NOT STAND STB when it came out and it is now easily one of my desert island records.

That being said I have some thoughts.

I've been listening to STB for over 30(!) years and Flood for (less than) 30 days. Time / sentimentality are factors. I think also the hate-to-love factor makes a difference. When you love a record from the first note (like Flood) it's different than when you turn a complete 180 on how you feel about it... The Flood debut doesn't have the 180 factor, although, I think even without these things I mentioned I would answer the same way...

That being said I think the Flood record is excellent.

Thoughts on Flood / Polarized:
- the band name is meh and as I stated somewhere before there are a flood of Floods on discogs
(https://www.discogs.com/search/?q=flood&image.x=3&image.y=0&type=artist&strict=true)
side note: oddly when you do a strict artist search on discogs for "our" Flood, they don't come up in the results(?)

- apparently I'm one of the few weirdos around here. I also think My Last Ride is weird lyrically and the video is cringe. It feels like it's elevating animals to the same level as humans (just my take not implying that is what they mean by it). None of that will stop me from listening to it though...

- also, being a weirdo, I like the instrumentals

- can't get enough of gary's playing as always...easily my favorite shredder

- can't get enough of guy's vox as always...again, easily my favorite vocalist

I don’t like everything about Guy’s vocals on STB, I actually prefer his Exodus thrash style on Psycho Surgery. With STB his voice was a lot more over the top and “colorful”. In the same way that Chris Cornell was on Badmotorfinger vs his painfully boring performance with Audioslave. I think Guy’s vocals with Flood is a nice balance. He definitely is closer to his Echo Hollow style than his STB screaming. This is just the debut. The next album may be even better!

My love of STB is mostly the awesome music.

Yeah Polarized is not even close with Stop the Bleeding.

The only thing it's absolutely better at is the guitar sound. While I love both Stop the Bleeding and Vanishing Lessons (both have the exact same guitar tone), I don't really like the way the guitars sound on those albums. Flood's Polarized has great guitar sound and the guitars sound better than any of Gary Lenaire's previous projects (two Echo Hollows, four solo albums, Talking Snakes, Cripple Need Cane - and maybe 2050 too).

Now, if we are to compare Polarized with Tourniquet, it's not better than Stop the Bleeding, Psycho Surgery, Pathogenic Ocular Dissonance or Vanishing Lessons. All those four albums are better than Polarized, but then again they are all on the very top of the best metal albums ever made so it's not a wonder if not many albums surpass them.

Ok, let's do the dirty deed and compare Polarized to every Tourniquet album!

(the underlined album is the winner)
Polarized vs. Stop the Bleeding
Polarized has better sounding guitars but it's not really even close to the quality of the songs in Stop the Bleeding. The first three songs on StB are all pure 5/5 classics, and the rest of the songs are very close to that quality too, with Harlot Widow being another 5/5 track.

Polarized vs. Psycho Surgery
No contest again. Psycho Surgery is my all time Top 1 favorite album. Nothing has been able to beat it, and this Polarized hasn't done an exception.

Polarized vs. Pathogenic Ocular Dissonance
Again, no contest. I don't think I have to explain myself with this opinion.

Polarized vs. Vanishing Lessons
Here we go to more interesting territory as for some this album was the beginning of the downfall of Tourniquet and some who love Polarized feel like it's what should've come after Pathogenic, and some even say it sounds like as if it came after Pathogenic.

Well, for me this is no contest again. Vanishing Lessons is another classic and most songs in that album are better than anything on Polarized. The only thing where Polarized is certainly better is the guitar tone.

Polarized vs. Carry the Wounded EP
While the title track is better than any song on Polarized, and the new version of My Promise is mind blowingly beautiful, the three other songs are all less exciting than perhaps any song on Polarized.

Polarized vs. the new tracks on The Collected Works of Tourniquet
Both tracks of The Collected Works are among the best of Tourniquet, especially The Hand Trembler.
It could be that none of the songs on Polarized are better than these tracks. At least with The Hand Trembler that is the case. That song even has the best vocal performance Gary Lenaire has ever done. And both songs have incredible guitar tone too, perhaps my favorite guitar tone in the whole history of Tourniquet.

Polarized vs. Crawl to China
This choice kinda stings quite a bit.
I love Crawl to China and some songs on it are better than any song on Polarized (Going, Going... Gone for example). I also like the sound of Crawl to China and the drumming is warmer and more exciting even though the album is mostly mellower, but on the whole I think I kinda like Polarized more.

Polarized vs. the new track on Acoustic Archives
It could be that Trivializing the Momentous is better than any track on Polarized, but this is a bit closer call than with the songs on The Collected Works.


Polarized vs. Microscopic View of a Telescopic Realm
No contest. A "modern" classic. Some songs in Polarized are better than, say, Servant of the Bones but the vast majority of Microscopic is better than the songs on Polarized.

Polarized vs. Where Moth and Rust Destroy
This one is a closer call. I actually almost chose Polarized over this.
Polarized has way better guitar tone, but I think the only songs the songs in Polarized have an edge on are A Ghost at the Wheel and In Death We Rise (which I absolutely love, but come on, let's be honest here), and maybe Convoluted Absolutes.

Polarized vs. Antiseptic Bloodbath
I know many people don't like Antiseptic Bloodbath, but I think it's still pretty fantastic and perhaps even better than Where Moth and Rust Destroy.

Polarized vs. Onward to Freedom (yes, counting this as a Tourniquet album here)
Onward to Freedom is my least favorite album that has been released under the name Tourniquet.
It's not a bad album and I've grown to like it more over the years, but Polarized is a clear winner. No contest here.

Polarized vs. Gazing at Medusa
This kinda hurts to say too...
I think songs like Memento Mori and the title track are better than anything on Polarized, and I love / really like most songs on Gazing at Medusa too, but as I just a moment ago finished listening Polarized again I have to say the riffs and the melodies in Polarized made me more excited than Gazing at Medusa as a whole.

Gazing also has the problem of having "too quirky" parts in the songs, and I say this as a lover of quirky Tourniquet! For example, I absolutely love most of the song Can't Make Me Hate You, but what's the deal with the part that comes at the 0:50 mark. And One Foot in Forever would be nearly a 5/5 track, but the completely misplaced awkward guitar melody gets close to ruining the whole thing for me (the one that first comes at the 1:29 mark). I get the melody itself. I love the melody itself. Played differently and perhaps with a different instrument it would be a beautiful thing, but the way it's presented in it now more hurts my ears than makes me enjoy it.

So, Gazing at Medusa has several little moments like that that borderline ruins the mood in otherwise good and great songs. Polarized, while having a mediocre part here and there, doesn't have anything like that (apart from the sometimes distracting mix on drums, which then again is the complete opposite of Gazing at Medusa as the drumming on that is very warm and humanlike throughout the whole album).

Polarized vs. the new track on The Slow Cosmic Voyage to Wisdom
Ok this one is a bit of a joke answer, but as I've included the other earlier bonus tracks in this comparison battle I figured to include this one too. A track is a track, right!

I like the bonus track surprisingly lot. 25 minutes of nothing but guitar noise with occasional drum sound here and there - no riffs, no melodies, pure noise - might sound like an impossible thing to go through, but it's surprising how well it works as the "finale" of the doom compilation and how surprisingly quickly 25 minutes of that noise passes.

That said, obviously a regular metal song is a much more enjoyable listen than that. You have to be some serious Tourniquet apologist to say this track is better than even the worst song on Polarized.





Overall
I think people are overhyping it when they call it something like the best Tourniquet album since Pathogenic. First of all, to call it something like a "tourniquet comeback" is just plainly wrong in my opinion, as even with Guy, Gary and Erik on board, it still misses the hugely distinct part of Tourniquet which is Ted's drumming.

Every single Tourniquet album has a distinct sense of creativity in the drumming part of the albums, and I think that if you are really honest about that, you would admit Polarized has none of that. It has good/great drumming, sure, but I don't think it can be denied that Ted has a very rare talent as a creative drummer and he can make albums have distinct drum section with sometimes smaller and sometimes bigger touches in the details of the drums. His drumming on the albums has always, and I mean always, sounded very natural and human with a distinct sense of technical detail without it ever sounding mechanical and robotic. The drumming on Polarized is very good, very precise and detailed, but it lacks the creativity (which is to be expected as only rare few drummers are creative like that in their drumming, and Ted happens to be one of those rare drummers).

Polarized surely is a really good album. The guitar solos are REALLY good and if there's something that can survive a battle with the early Tourniquet albums at least for a while, it's those solos.

Polarized doesn't really have a single bad song. Perhaps the title track is more on the average side but the rest of the album goes from good to great, and sometimes even fantastic. Not many albums can do that.

It mostly tells about the quality of Tourniquet (both pre and post Lenaire) that an album that is as enjoyable as Polarized is still can't beat most of the Tourniquet catalog.

The production quality is excellent on Polarized and it shows both Lenaire and Ritter both have their old sensibilities on songwriting, song details and performance intact. They are still both among the best in heavy metal, and Mendez is truly one really underused guitarist who should have a lot more recognition in guitarist circles. It's sad how small amount of albums he has been part of.

In any case it's better than Gary's and Guy's projects since Tourniquet. I've been there listening to the early demos of what came to be the Cripple Need Cane album, I've been there to listen to the Talking Snakes project. I've really enjoyed a lot of that, and I like/love both Echo Hollow albums. And I can honestly say FLOOD is easily the best of the bunch.

But is this better than Stop the Bleeding or the other classic Tourniquet albums or even most of the later ones?
No. It's really good, but it's not that good.

(but man, it really is GREAT at some points - I'm right now going through the album the second time while writing this and I just passed the fast part of Darfur, and man that's soooo good! Initially I wasn't too excited about all the changes this version of Darfur had but I've listened through the album maybe 10 times now and each time I'm increasingly more loving the new version of the song, and the fast part really gets me each time!)

Aside from the first three Tourniquet albums, the only songs that compare to most of the Flood debut are the two previously unreleased tracks on the Collected Works album. In my opinion, Polarized is better than all the post Lenaire Tourniquet releases.

I think Polarized is already becoming a bit overrated. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a great album with no bad tunes on it. But I don’t think it’s quite the second coming of Master of Puppets that everyone seems to think it is. I’ll be curious to see how everyone feels about it a year from now. As of now, I think it's an excellent album and I’m super thankful that Guy, Gary, and Erik are together making killer music again!

That´s a good thread, love it,

but to me I don´t depend on names. To me Flood is Tourniquet without an excelent drummer and songwriter.
From STB until Pathogenic the people of "Flood" defined and composed the early Tourniquet sound also.
Tourniquet after the leaving of Guy, Gary and Eric was not the same.

Stop the bleeding is my alltime favourite album and Polarized is no debut to me. Crawl to china is more of a debut to me. Speaking of debuts I´d rather compare Polarized to Crawl. Is Polarized compared to the rest of the Tourniquet albums the ranking for me is this:

1. Stop the bleeding
2. Psycho Surgery
3. Pathogenic Ocular Dissonance
4. Polarized and collected works

The skills in playing (rhythm and lead) guitars and bass and the vocals on Polarized conquer every Tourniquet album after POD.

... then ...
    . Gazing at medusa
    . onward to freedom

Pethead wrote:I think Polarized is already becoming a bit overrated. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a great album with no bad tunes on it. But I don’t think it’s quite the second coming of Master of Puppets that everyone seems to think it is. I’ll be curious to see how everyone feels about it a year from now. As of now, I think it's an excellent album and I’m super thankful that Guy, Gary, and Erik are together making killer music again!

I don’t think it’s anywhere near Master of Puppets status. But it is surprisingly good and better than Gazing at Medusa and some other 00’s Tourniquet albums. My opinion of coarse!

My favorite Tourniquet album after the first four classics is Microscopic View.

TZ75 wrote:

Pethead wrote:I think Polarized is already becoming a bit overrated. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a great album with no bad tunes on it. But I don’t think it’s quite the second coming of Master of Puppets that everyone seems to think it is. I’ll be curious to see how everyone feels about it a year from now. As of now, I think it's an excellent album and I’m super thankful that Guy, Gary, and Erik are together making killer music again!

I don’t think it’s anywhere near Master of Puppets status. But it is surprisingly good and better than Gazing at Medusa and some other 00’s Tourniquet albums. My opinion of coarse!

I think it’s probably better than Antiseptic Bloodbath. I don’t think it’s better than Microscopic or Moth and Rust. Still undecided how it ranks against Gazing. 

I still think Freeloading Larceny is the best tune. So killer.

Microscopic View is an excellent album. Luke’s best after Vanishing Lessons. I never liked Moth and Rust.

The songs I don’t like much on Polarized is: the Remission instrumental, the title track and Last Ride. 

Delete those songs and the album would be even better! Lean and mean with more of a streamlined flow.

Pethead wrote:
I still think Freeloading Larceny is the best tune. So killer.

Yeah that's a great tune. It's like a well produced and thrashier/speedier Holy Danger song (with a bit of Echo Hollow added to it).

I love both Guy's and Gary's vocals on that song so much. Especially on the second verse Gary has this nice haunting touch to the way he yells. The "now you are the one who wears the blame" line is so good! One of the things that separate good vocalists from bad is how they end their vocal lines. Gary has a great ability to give that extra punch and to not hold anything back and that line is a great example of that.

Another little thing I love in that song is the very guyritterish odd grunt he does at the 5:56 mark.

And speaking of details, the very odd sounding thing that happens in Biotech Babylon at the 1:37 mark right after the fast double bass drum moment still gets me every time! It kinda sounds like a mistake when editing the song, the cut is so abrupt, but I think it great and for some reason makes the song more exciting.

Airola wrote:

Pethead wrote:
I still think Freeloading Larceny is the best tune. So killer.

Yeah that's a great tune. It's like a well produced and thrashier/speedier Holy Danger song (with a bit of Echo Hollow added to it).

I love both Guy's and Gary's vocals on that song so much. Especially on the second verse Gary has this nice haunting touch to the way he yells. The "now you are the one who wears the blame" line is so good! One of the things that separate good vocalists from bad is how they end their vocal lines. Gary has a great ability to give that extra punch and to not hold anything back and that line is a great example of that.

Another little thing I love in that song is the very guyritterish odd grunt he does at the 5:56 mark.

And speaking of details, the very odd sounding thing that happens in Biotech Babylon at the 1:37 mark right after the fast double bass drum moment still gets me every time! It kinda sounds like a mistake when editing the song, the cut is so abrupt, but I think it great and for some reason makes the song more exciting.

I mentioned before that there are some chords and vocals that sound like Echo Hollow towards the end of the song. They definitely borrowed from something before.

Stop the Bleeding