"Good Soil and Seeds" Bands

by Kerrick Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:46 pm

Jesus wrote:As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.

With so many "Christian" bands of old who've since left the faith, it's easy to get discouraged and dismayed (for good reason). But we can leave that for the other threads... What are some Christian bands whose members have been planted in that good soil (as far as one can tell) and have thus continued along that narrow path, bearing good fruit? Which bands have remained consistent in the edification of believers and furthering the Good News to unbelievers?

I can think of many, but the first to come to mind is Victor Griffin of Place Of Skulls. From everything I've ever seen or heard of him, he's the real deal and has an incredible heart for God's Word.

(I don't mean for this to be a thread praising or elevating men, but rather to have a reminder of God's goodness and faithfulness to His own.)

by Pethead Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:08 pm

Steve Rowe
Most of the guys from Petra
Bloodgood
Saint

Dana Key (RIP) ran the race well.

by Follower of Jesus Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:46 pm

Stryper
Sacred Warrior
Trytan
Barren Cross
Sardonyx
The Brave
Whitecross

by Constantine Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:06 pm

Some notable ones that come to mind for me are (older and newer):

All For The King
Ancient Prophecy
Angel 7
Antidemon
Bloodgood
Chaotic Resemblance
Demoniciduth
Gloriam Dei
Grave Declaration
HB (until they retired....)
Letter 7
Leviticus
Menchen (Bill Menchen and his various bands....)
Messenger
Mortification / Steve Rowe
Narnia / The Waymaker
Newsboys (Not metal but they've been very consistent)
Northern Flame
Petra
Place Of Skulls
Ritual Servant
Sardonyx
Stryper
Temple Of Blood
Theocracy
True Strength
Trytan
Whitecross
XT

There are a few others, and then others that I am just not sure about.

A very cool track:

by ThomasEversole Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:58 pm

A little shameless self promotion. I've put a lot of effort into Orationem retaining a bold Christian message, with theologically non-partisan lyrics.

After 6 albums of POV prayers (self talking to God, not so much opinions about other stuff) I ran out of applicable topics to pray about. So, verbatim scripture for the 7th album and what's completed of the 8th "album" "so far". Not the BabylonBee version of Christian death metal verbatim scripture (referencing old testament violence because its metal) but carefully chosen passages focusing on faith, hope, love, salvation and of course, prayer.

by TZ75 Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:14 pm

Off the top of my head, these are the ones I truly believe are the real deal...

Steve Rowe
Victor Griffin
Jim Chaffin (The Crucified)
Mike Phillips (Deliverance)
Alice Cooper
Ron Rinehart (Dark Angel)
Brian “Head” Welch

There’s plenty more, but I can’t think of them all.

by TZ75 Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:25 pm

I want to include Dave Mustaine and David Ellefson from Megadeth, but I sometimes get a weird feeling about them. More Mustaine than Ellefson... but who am I to judge? I don’t want their conversions to be just an after effect from their AA and drug rehab meetings. I want to believe it’s authentic. I think Mustaine is a bit more reserved about his faith than Ellefson is. But at the same time, Ellefson sometimes gives the feeling of doing it as a family tradition kind of thing. I’m not sure... I hope they are the real deal.

by TZ75 Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:30 pm

I will add Michael Sweet and Oz Fox to my list. I don’t know that much about Robert Sweet because he doesn’t talk that much about himself. I think he is genuine... but I have no doubt about Michael and Oz, because they have been very unashamed and bold about it!

by ThomasEversole Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:58 pm

After reading some of the other replies, I'm wondering if I'm misunderstanding this thread? The title says "bands", but the first example in the first post is a "person".

I don't see bands/shows/albums as being the same thing as people. I mean, one can be a creation of the other, but not the other way around. For some reason, I have a gut feeling some folks quantify how Christian a band/performance/recording is, by direct proportion to how Christian the person who made it is.

If I paid someone to wallpaper my house and I come home and see they did an amazing job, but my wife says they spent the whole time yelling at their imaginary friend Kirby while they were working, does that mean their wallpaper job isn't as amazing as I thought it was? My gut is telling me some folks would hire someone else to just re-wallpaper again after that experience.

Sorry. This doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

by crucifyd Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:00 am

I think we are spinning our wheels to try to figure out whether people (most of us) don't actually know, or only "know" online, are truly regenerate. It seems to me that whatever we see of their life is, like seeing what somebody's life is like on facebook, only telling a fraction of the story.

Roger Martinez was "very unashamed and bold about it" back in the day.

No offense to Kerrick or anyone, just putting down what came to mind...

by TZ75 Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:27 am

crucifyd wrote:I think we are spinning our wheels to try to figure out whether people (most of us) don't actually know, or only "know" online, are truly regenerate. It seems to me that whatever we see of their life is, like seeing what somebody's life is like on facebook, only telling a fraction of the story.

Roger Martinez was "very unashamed and bold about it" back in the day.

No offense to Kerrick or anyone, just putting down what came to mind...

No one knows anything for certain. It’s all “gut feeling” and maybe discernment.

Regarding Roger Martinez... you have a point. But the dust has settled after 30 years and we see who is still standing.

Some have flat out left the faith and others have struggled, but never completely left. I think some have also changed their doctrinal views. It’s not like the 80s and early 90s when everyone seemed to be united with the same evangelical message.

by TZ75 Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:39 am

In relation to this topic,

I’m really hoping Gary Lenaire has returned to faith in Christ. On his website, he made a statement that indicates a change is happening.

by BaleMaster Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:02 am

John Schlitt
The 77s
The Choir
Jimmy Brown/Deliverance
Eric Clayton
Neal Morse
Darrell Mansfield
Kerry Livgren

by alldatndensum Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:33 am

Saint
Fear Not
Lovewar
Bill Menchen of Titanic/Final Axe/Menchen/Seventh Power. Ok, Bill IS all of those project.
Narnia

by ThomasEversole Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:27 pm

TZ75 wrote:
crucifyd wrote:I think we are spinning our wheels to try to figure out whether people (most of us) don't actually know, or only "know" online, are truly regenerate. It seems to me that whatever we see of their life is, like seeing what somebody's life is like on facebook, only telling a fraction of the story.

Roger Martinez was "very unashamed and bold about it" back in the day.

No offense to Kerrick or anyone, just putting down what came to mind...

No one knows anything for certain. It’s all “gut feeling” and maybe discernment.

Regarding Roger Martinez... you have a point. But the dust has settled after 30 years and we see who is still standing.

For us Christian metal music listeners who are quantifying most edifying bands/musicians, it doesn't appear to really be about what they do or don't do, believe or don't believe. Its about us knowing what they do or don't do, believe or don't believe, and then apparently "completing our assessment" and presenting it in this thread, with what few puzzle pieces we have.

I wasn't in Roger Martinez's circle when he was in the Christian metal scene.... but I was in close contact at the time with someone who was. Roger was doing some very "unChristian" things in his life off stage, at the same period of time he would go on stage and pour his heart out for Jesus. I'd heard tales of people purging their Vengeance Rising CD collections after it was public knowledge he left the faith, yet they most likely still cherished those same CDs while Roger was mired in sin off stage. (again, its what they know he's done, not what he's actually done)

When it comes to people and our interactions with people, this sort of thing makes sense to me - to make decisions on if we should be around them or not. When it comes to inanimate recordings, and inanimate CD collections, and one-off performances, or bands as in a more than one person "group" - having the "edifying status" of those changed, based on what's known one author/artist does or doesn't do.... this doesn't make ANY sense to me.

Like if someone made a 3 minute Christian metal track where the only lyrics were "God rulz" over and over, it wouldn't be edifying at all if it was from an unknown person or someone newly converted to the faith... The internet would probably chirp that out of the 2 word lyrics, one of the words is misspelled. ...but since the track is known to be by Mortification/Steve Rowe from 30 years ago ("The Majestic Infiltration Of Order" from their self titled), its an edifying recording, no questions asked. Because its Steve Rowe/Mortification, and that's enough.

It just seems like some sort of a bias based spirit-to-object imprinting going on? Seriously - I keep thinking back to this Vice interview where dude shows people a sweater and tells them it belonged to MLKjr, and everyone's eyes light up when they "now know" that. Then later when he goes "Just kidding, its actually Jeffery Dahmer's sweater" and the same people cringe and recoil, again based on what they "now know". (and actually it wasn't a sweater of either person, so what's "known" doesn't even have to be true for people to make the exact same assessment)

Rolling Eyes

by TZ75 Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:17 pm

ThomasEversole wrote:
TZ75 wrote:
crucifyd wrote:I think we are spinning our wheels to try to figure out whether people (most of us) don't actually know, or only "know" online, are truly regenerate. It seems to me that whatever we see of their life is, like seeing what somebody's life is like on facebook, only telling a fraction of the story.

Roger Martinez was "very unashamed and bold about it" back in the day.

No offense to Kerrick or anyone, just putting down what came to mind...

No one knows anything for certain. It’s all “gut feeling” and maybe discernment.

Regarding Roger Martinez... you have a point. But the dust has settled after 30 years and we see who is still standing.

For us Christian metal music listeners who are quantifying most edifying bands/musicians, it doesn't appear to really be about what they do or don't do, believe or don't believe. Its about us knowing what they do or don't do, believe or don't believe, and then apparently "completing our assessment" and presenting it in this thread, with what few puzzle pieces we have.

I wasn't in Roger Martinez's circle when he was in the Christian metal scene.... but I was in close contact at the time with someone who was. Roger was doing some very "unChristian" things in his life off stage, at the same period of time he would go on stage and pour his heart out for Jesus. I'd heard tales of people purging their Vengeance Rising CD collections after it was public knowledge he left the faith, yet they most likely still cherished those same CDs while Roger was mired in sin off stage. (again, its what they know he's done, not what he's actually done)

When it comes to people and our interactions with people, this sort of thing makes sense to me - to make decisions on if we should be around them or not. When it comes to inanimate recordings, and inanimate CD collections, and one-off performances, or bands as in a more than one person "group" - having the "edifying status" of those changed, based on what's known one author/artist does or doesn't do.... this doesn't make ANY sense to me.

Like if someone made a 3 minute Christian metal track where the only lyrics were "God rulz" over and over, it wouldn't be edifying at all if it was from an unknown person or someone newly converted to the faith... The internet would probably chirp that out of the 2 word lyrics, one of the words is misspelled. ...but since the track is known to be by Mortification/Steve Rowe from 30 years ago ("The Majestic Infiltration Of Order" from their self titled), its an edifying recording, no questions asked. Because its Steve Rowe/Mortification, and that's enough.

It just seems like some sort of a bias based spirit-to-object imprinting going on? Seriously - I keep thinking back to this Vice interview where dude shows people a sweater and tells them it belonged to MLKjr, and everyone's eyes light up when they "now know" that. Then later when he goes "Just kidding, its actually Jeffery Dahmer's sweater" and the same people cringe and recoil, again based on what they "now know". (and actually it wasn't a sweater of either person, so what's "known" doesn't even have to be true for people to make the exact same assessment)

Weird rant...

I don’t throw away albums from people that left the faith (if I still like the album). I have my Vengeance Rising CDs. My assessments are based on their public declarations in interviews. The whole thing about inanimate objects was weird. It doesn’t apply to me. I still like all the albums I liked before. Regardless of their current belief. I never threw away my Tourniquet CDs when Gary left either.

The only thing I was trying to convey is that I have a “gut feeling” about sincerity sometimes. And keep in mind that I said: “nobody knows for certain”.

by ThomasEversole Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:30 am

TZ75 wrote:The only thing I was trying to convey is that I have a “gut feeling” about sincerity sometimes. And keep in mind that I said: “nobody knows for certain”.

My apologies for my weird rant and my confusion. I'm still unclear if this is about music or people.

I'm not saying it's bad to have convictions about music, or people. If the gut feeling about people's sincerity puts a condition on what music you can retain an edifying message from, then, I'm also sorry to hear that.

by TZ75 Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:08 am

ThomasEversole wrote:
TZ75 wrote:The only thing I was trying to convey is that I have a “gut feeling” about sincerity sometimes. And keep in mind that I said: “nobody knows for certain”.

My apologies for my weird rant and my confusion. I'm still unclear if this is about music or people.

I'm not saying it's bad to have convictions about music, or people. If the gut feeling about people's sincerely puts a condition on what music you can retain an edifying message from, then, I'm also sorry to hear that.

It’s a case by case thing. Secular music is basically just entertainment only. When spirituality is involved, it just doesn’t sit right sometimes if it isn’t genuine. That’s how I view Christian Metal. If someone has a change of heart, it’s better if they’re honest about the situation. That doesn’t mean I stopped being a fan of the music. Don’t know how else to put it...

by ThomasEversole Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:13 am

It sounds like its case by case for Christian metal. Secular metal is on your table because its entertainment. Christian metal is on your table, unless the author doesn't live according to your feelings, then everything they've touched that you have is reduced to gathering dust.

Since the same genre of music gets a totally different standard depending on people's beliefs/lives and the music's lyric themes, I can only imagine the level of scouting involved to see if something Christian is worthy of being canceled or not.

by Kerrick Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:35 pm

LOL Thomas I think you're way overthinking/overcomplicating this! There have been numerous discussions in the past regarding the necessity (or not) of the authenticity of the members. (IIRC you've mentioned before that secular black metal band Batushka that made a "Christian" album which makes a good example for the discussion.) I don't mind if we discuss that again here, but the purpose of me starting this thread was more along the lines of just offering a list of bands/members that the folks here who DO care about that "authenticity" or whatever you wanna call it could check out. Also to be a reminder that not everyone in the scene apostatizes... It seems like recently there have been so many instances of apostasy and at least for me, I find encouragement in seeing my brothers and sisters in Christ persisting.

I thought this was obvious, but I should probably be explicit in that NOBODY here on earth has access to the Lamb's book of life. So of course none of us can say for certain one way or the other. But that "gut" feeling and discernment are our tools. Also, yes obviously a band doesn't have a soul and can't be judged as such. I didn't think that'd need to be made explicit either. I see a band as a sort of "fruit" of its member(s). This thread was started somewhat in response to the Detritus thread in which lyrics were posted that left many users here uneasy and uncertain about wanting to support/listen to the band. We don't know where all the Detritus members are regarding faith and such, but the edifying/encouraging/whatever value and draw towards them (for some) has been diminished by those "fruits." For many, the draw to Christian metal is more than just entertainment. But for others, "if it jams, it jams" and music is solely for personal enjoyment purposes so why care what the lyrics or what the authenticity of the members is. I don't see the need to "win" anyone over to the other side on that topic. For me personally, it's difficult to separate the music from the musician. So this thread is helpful for me in discovering new music I may really enjoy and I hope it is for others too!

by ThomasEversole Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:08 pm

Kerrick wrote:NOBODY here on earth has access to the Lamb's book of life.

Kerrick wrote:yes obviously a band doesn't have a soul and can't be judged as such.

Of course. I'm assuming I was extremely unclear before as to why you're even saying this...

Kerrick wrote:I think you're way overthinking/overcomplicating this!

Kerrick wrote:I thought this was obvious,

Kerrick wrote:I didn't think that'd need to be made explicit either.

At least you can accuse me of being stupid without actually saying that I'm stupid.

Kerrick wrote:I see a band as a sort of "fruit" of its member(s).

I absolutely see this the same way. ...but I don't see good fruit as turning rotten, just because the tree withers later after the good fruit is produced. Its still good fruit if the tree was good at the time it made it.

This is what doesn't make sense to me. Having a perfectly good piece of fruit (Christian metal album that's edifying) from a good tree (faithful Christian band), and then oh no, something happens to the tree after it already beared its good fruit (the band member did some crime or publicly denounces their faith) so now... "gut feeling and discernment" turns that same unchanged good piece of fruit that came from a good tree at the time, into being as vile and rotten and unedifying as the tree sadly is now.

I literally cannot think of anything more bassackwards than that. Its like saying a Christian who does good deeds and ministry when they're a Christian, if they lose their faith later, that turns all the prior good deeds and ministry they did, into straight up evil, lies or bad deeds.

Give me a break.

That's not "gut feeling and discernment". Its just cancel culture coupled with the inability to tell what time it is.

Kerrick wrote:This thread was started somewhat in response to the Detritus thread in which lyrics were posted that left many users here uneasy and uncertain about wanting to support/listen to the band. We don't know where all the Detritus members are regarding faith and such, but the edifying/encouraging/whatever value and draw towards them (for some) has been diminished by those "fruits."

A good tree produces good fruit. A bad tree produces bad fruit. Uneasy lyrics, would be a poor quality fruit, right from the get-go. I don't see what the issue is - just throw the fruit away if its bad. Why even look at the tree if the fruit in hand is already junk? Were people WANTING the release/band to still be Christian somehow and were trying to justify it?

Kerrick wrote:the purpose of me starting this thread was more along the lines of just offering a list of bands/members that the folks here who DO care about that "authenticity" or whatever you wanna call it could check out.

Just because I think this good fruit discrimination over a tree's current growth status is a bunch of rubbish, doesn't mean I don't I care about authentic Christian metal too...

Kerrick wrote:For me personally, it's difficult to separate the music from the musician.

Just for Christian music though. If its Iron Maiden, they can pretty much say or do whatever and still stay in the forefront of your playlist, right?

That's the 2nd part of this conundrum. Judgement for the Christian trees gone bad, (the good fruit from THEN is no longer edifying if the tree is bad NOW) but the unchristian tree can twist and turn however they want to and still have their fruit picked.

R-I-D-I-C-U-L-O-U-S

by Constantine Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:33 pm

I could be wrong but I think we're getting off into a straw man here, or at least a tangent. My impression of the intent of the post was listing which bands we see as still keeping the faith, as best as we can tell. It wasn't about "Let's determine who's not in the faith anymore so we can throw out their old material." If people want to do that that's their prerogative, but that doesn't have much bearing what's happening with the band now. If a band publicly says "we don't want to be considered a Christian band anymore," if their older material was good and enjoyable, great, praise God that we had that. No need for me to divest myself of their prior output.

We are all a snapshot in time, and we all (hopefully) change in different ways. If someone is going through a season where they're questioning their faith, well IMO better questioning than rejecting altogether. If they're angry and have turned their back on God, well we can pray for them and hope for the best. I might not want to listen to their new material, but no big deal, there's so much good music out there that I'm not going to be losing much of anything. But I would agree that it doesn't take away from their prior output being edifying.

by Black Rider Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:38 pm

Since you can't lose your faith you are either a good tree or not but of course God can use either for his purpose.

by Kerrick Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:10 pm

ThomasEversole wrote:
Kerrick wrote:NOBODY here on earth has access to the Lamb's book of life.
Kerrick wrote:yes obviously a band doesn't have a soul and can't be judged as such.

Of course. I'm assuming I was extremely unclear before as to why you're even saying this...

Kerrick wrote:I think you're way overthinking/overcomplicating this!
Kerrick wrote:I thought this was obvious,
Kerrick wrote:I didn't think that'd need to be made explicit either.

At least you can accuse me of being stupid without actually saying that I'm stupid.

Yes, sorry Thomas. I typed the overthinking/overcomplicating comment with a smile and meant it as a friendly elbow bump, not a criticism. (I should've put a smiley since I can't otherwise type my tone... my bad.) I certainly didn't mean to imply you're stupid (I know full well you're not!!!). I just got confused when you were addressing my assumptions and must've misunderstood what you were asking:

ThomasEversole wrote:After reading some of the other replies, I'm wondering if I'm misunderstanding this thread? The title says "bands", but the first example in the first post is a "person".

I don't see bands/shows/albums as being the same thing as people... Sorry. This doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

^This is what I was trying to clarify since it seemed from what you wrote that we weren't on the same page. As usual haha, we're probably just talking past one another. Smile

I think Constantine's correct in the straw-man rabbit hole; maybe it's best to not continue down that one.

Black Rider hit the nail on the head and I was about to write the same thing. I think much of this comes down to theology. I'm of the persuasion that nobody can gain or lose their salvation on a whim. I believe that God saves His elect and keeps them. I do not believe that a person can bounce back and forth between being a Christian and not - and just hope that they die on a "Christian day." That's a hotly debated theological concept though (amongst true believers) and the best we can do is to give one another grace and encourage each other in pursuing truth and knowledge - but acknowledging the inevitable disagreement there. So Thomas, even if you think it "ridiculous," consider that there are those of us who would see a "Christian album" from someone who later apostatizes to have never truly been a "Christian album" (whatever that may be... but I think you get what I'm saying?). Now, as BR said, God can still certainly use seemingly bad things for our good (Romans 8:28) and His glory. He's the God of redemption and that's what He does! But I don't believe that a bad tree can bear good fruit in the godly sense of "good" (now, there's that common grace so of course an unbeliever could help a granny across the street and that'd be good in a worldly sense, etc.). Does that help in making sense of where some of us are coming from Thomas?

by Frozen Fire Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:14 pm

ThomasEversole wrote:
I absolutely see this the same way. ...but I don't see good fruit as turning rotten, just because the tree withers later after the good fruit is produced. Its still good fruit if the tree was good at the time it made it.

This is what doesn't make sense to me. Having a perfectly good piece of fruit (Christian metal album that's edifying) from a good tree (faithful Christian band), and then oh no, something happens to the tree after it already beared its good fruit (the band member did some crime or publicly denounces their faith) so now... "gut feeling and discernment" turns that same unchanged good piece of fruit that came from a good tree at the time, into being as vile and rotten and unedifying as the tree sadly is now.

This is so interesting. I really like and appreciate these comments. I think of Roger Martinez preaching a pure gospel, even if he was never saved, as something that remains true and good, despite the life of the messenger. God's truth is truth and is separate from the life of the person. Their life may bear bad fruit but God's truth spoken remains untainted. If the message is twisted like Satan twisted God's Word in Christ's temptation in the desert, that is a different story.

I think what Paul says in Philippians 1:15-18 can help us understand the attitude we should have to the message spoken as separate from the life of the person speaking:

"It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so in love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. The former, however, preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can add to the distress of my chains. What then is the issue? Just this: that in every way, whether by false motives or true, Christ is preached. And in this I rejoice."

The key is the true Christ is preached. Paul never celebrates a twisted message yet here he rejoiced though the people had false motives.

Saying all that, I understand and struggle with the separation myself at times. I never bought the last two Vengeance Rising albums. I'll have a hard time listening to the Christian apologist Ravi Zacharias anymore, reading or recommending his books. Just being honest.

Contributing to the thread:

I've appreciated Demon Hunter's more consistent, deeper message as time has gone on. I still love and look forward to My Epic's material and message growing more nuanced and adding depth.

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