When a "Christian band" says they're not a Christian band...

There was a brief discussion on The Blackest Light regarding this. I'm interested in the opinions of those here on this topic.

Circle of Dust states in this interview that they were never a Christian band and only joined a Christian label because of opportunity.
http://iprobablyhateyourband.com/interviews/interview-klayton-celldweller-circle-of-dust-scandroid/

Also, starting at 1:55 in this video. (LOL at him saying he would have joined a satanic label if that was the opportunity)


Despite knowing this, it seems to be that more than a few people STILL consider Circle of Dust to be a Christian band even though the artist says it is not.

My question to you all - can music still be Christian even if the artist denies it?
__________________________

My opinion, while personal interpretation can be everything regarding a song's context, (ie: that song is Christian TO ME, etc.) I don't think its accurate to place them in the Christian genre (for everyone looking) if the one making the art isn't on board to being labeled "Christian".

Thoughts?

Anyone that would disown Christ before men is certainly not a Christian band. This one is easy.

Klayton doesn't publicly disown or own Christ. Basically when asked (regarding his music or even him being Christian), he just gives a political style "unanswer". The only thing he has been clear on is that Circle of Dust is not a Christian band.

I agree with you. I think to be Christian art, the artist has to be on board with that idea, but as I mentioned from the other forum - there are those who think otherwise. I'm not out to tell anyone they're wrong because I disagree - more than anything, this concept of "Christian despite the artists claims" intrigues me.

I made some secular black/death metal under the name Ankou Awaits. There's 5 full length albums of music on 4 different record labels.

One of those Christian black metal Facebook pages included Ankou Awaits in their list of Christian black metal bands. I actually found myself reasonably annoyed by this.

Obviously as a Christian, I support Christianity. Obviously as a Christian extreme metal musician (Orationem) I support Christian extreme metal. ...but Ankou Awaits isn't Christian music. Sure, the lyrics on the 2015 album have positive metaphorical message, sure there's nothing negative in the other lyrics, sure I have an open faith... but that music (by me) wasn't intended, presented, portrayed to be Christian music. Its just fun, no-strings-attached extreme metal.

Because of this (on a smaller scale because my music is nowhere near as popular as Circle of Dust) I understand Klayton's frustration when people STILL claim his art is faith based when he doesn't.

I think it can be a bit of a grey area.  If the artists claims the band isn't Christian, and the lyrics don't reflect Christ.....I would be inclined to agree with the artist.
However, Micheal Sweet claimed that Stryper was never a "Christian band", yet the lyrics in a number of Stryper songs explicitly point to Christ.  So you have to look at the artist's intent and the intent of the person using the term "Christian band".
In the simplest terms does it meant one of the following?

A. A band that sings/performs for the glory of Christ, and the lyrics explicitly reflect that.
B. A band that sings/performs music that sometimes has lyrics that seem to elude to Christ (or can possibly be interpreted that way).
C. A band that plays together and writes song lyrics about just about anything that interests them....oh and all/most of the members consider themselves Christians.
D. Something else.

I think whether Micheal Sweet likes it or not, most people are going to consider Stryper a Christian band, because the members are (supposedly) all Christians and many of their songs point to Christ.....

Not sure if I pushed this off topic, but just my two cents.  I don't think you can claim that your band was never Christian if many of the song lyric point to Christ....but if they never did it's going to be hard to argue with the artist.

I think that Staybrite pretty well nailed this one down.

I just realized that Klayton looks like a younger Jesse Ventura with a wig.

alldatndensum wrote:I think that Staybrite pretty well nailed this one down.

DeathIsGain pretty much did too.

Staybrite wrote:
However, Micheal Sweet claimed that Stryper was never a "Christian band", yet the lyrics in a number of Stryper songs explicitly point to Christ.  So you have to look at the artist's intent and the intent of the person using the term "Christian band".

I had no idea that Michael Sweet claimed Stryper was never a Christian band. That's very interesting. ...and confusing. The Circle of Dust fans that felt the band was obviously Christian, the lyrics they referenced seemed too ambiguous to me. I'm guessing Stryper isn't the same way? (I'm not familiar with any Stryper lyrics)

I think that "something else" you mentioned could be "Christian band" = "band in the Christian music market". I've always known Stryper to be in the secular music market.

I know this doesn't change anything, but I still don't like the idea that what fans conclude could still trump all artist intention. Like if (hypothetically speaking) 3/4ths of the fans decided that Stryper was a "screamo" band, then using the same logic, it would pretty much mean that Stryper is screamo... (I would imagine, much to the horror of Michael Sweet... LOL)

Google some of Stryper's lyrics.  They cannot be mistaken as anything but Christian in content.

I did and I agree.

ThomasEversole wrote:
I had no idea that Michael Sweet claimed Stryper was never a Christian band.  That's very interesting.  ...and confusing.

After digging around some, I figured out why he said Stryper is not a Christian band.
He doesn't like labels.  "If you are going to label a band a Christian band, then you got to label all the other bands."  (his point being calling bands with Christians in them a "Christian band", you might as well call a band full of drug addicts a "drug addict band")

Meh.

I get what he's trying to say and I will admit that logic is kind of clever, but its to the level of ridiculousness I can't even think of a proper way to describe it.  I mean, when 95% of your songs are religous themed, and you have Isaiah 53:5 under your logo, and you say your logo is a religious anagram, and you throw out bibles at your shows, and you wear 777 on your gear, and you say prayers after your shows - its a lot harder to consider you NOT a Christian band...

...especially since the "drug addict band" doesn't bang heroin on stage.

Put me in the 'Staybrite nailed it' camp.  I would even subdivide his D part further.

The definition of "Christian music" is a continuum.  The lyrics to the first two Circle of Dust albums are written from a Christian perspective.  To answer the initial question, yes I do consider them "Christian."  Disengage not so much and definitely not Machines of Our Disgrace.  It's not doing anyone on either side of the fence justice not to clarify what Circle was and what Circle is now lyrically.  He was known as a Christian musician and didn't deny it at the time.  When I saw that recording initially I wished he would have owned it more.

I understand artists wanting to avoid labels, especially for marketing purposes (when I rip something to iTunes I change the genre from 'Religious' to whatever the actual musical genre is).  I'd rather find Stryper in the metal section of FYE than the religious section.  It would help a lot if when a band is asked "are you a Christian band?" that they would say where they fall and let the consumer decide if it fits their definition of "Christian."  Thomas, you're a perfect example of this: I don't have any Ankou Awaits (yet) but if I did it would really depend on the context if I called it "Christian" or not.  To anyone on this board and anyone who REALLY understands the issue I don't listen to "only Christian" music.  My collection is about 70-80% Christian and 20-30% not-Christian-but-Christian-friendly/marketed as Christian/some Christians in the band/mistaken for Christian.  No, I don't think Ankou Awaits is "Christian music" but you're a Christian and the music is not inappropriate for a Christian so it would fall into the second category.  To some I give the short answer: "yes, it's all Christian."  In those scenarios I wouldn't feel guilty saying that with any Ankou Awaits in the collection.

ThomasEversole wrote:After digging around some, I figured out why he said Stryper is not a Christian band.
He doesn't like labels.  "If you are going to label a band a Christian band, then you got to label all the other bands."  (his point being calling bands with Christians in them a "Christian band", you might as well call a band full of drug addicts a "drug addict band")

Meh.

I think if you asked Michael Sweet what a "Christian Rock Band" is, he would say something that sounds like Rich Mullins or Newsboys, DC Talk (etc.), and those bands performed mostly at churches and Christian music festivals.  I think the reason he doesn't think Stryper is a Christian rock band is because they didn't sound like many of the popular 80's Christian rock bands, and for the most part they didn't play exclusively in churches or at Christian music festivals, they played concert arenas and clubs...often with secular bands.  I get the difference, but lyrically they weren't any different than many of the other 80's Christian rock bands. I get artists wanting to "transcend labels"....but most of them don't really, and just because your band might fit (at least partially) several different labels, doesn't mean that you are something completely different.

Staybrite's first post in this topic is very on point, at least to me.

This reminds me of Leah (here at home she's called "metal mama"). She recently said that she doesn't consider her music "christian", with more or less the same argumentation as Michael Sweet. You know, the story of "I'm a christian, and I make music that's about my life".
It pretty much adds up to the music being christian because the author is christian and this christianity comes out because of the origin of the music (the christian author).

As for not liking to be labeled as a christian band, I think that's mainly a US thing. Apparently, there has been a lot of hypocrisy in the christian metal scene over at your side of the Atlantic.

Concerning Circle of Dust, I'm not sure. I don't know if there's christians in that band, and I don't know their lyrics.

eatbugs wrote:
The definition of "Christian music" is a continuum.  The lyrics to the first two Circle of Dust albums are written from a Christian perspective.  To answer the initial question, yes I do consider them "Christian."  Disengage not so much and definitely not Machines of Our Disgrace.  It's not doing anyone on either side of the fence justice not to clarify what Circle was and what Circle is now lyrically.  He was known as a Christian musician and didn't deny it at the time.  When I saw that recording initially I wished he would have owned it more.

According to Klayton in that video, he answered this "Circle of Dust is not a Christian band" back in 1995.  Maybe we missed him saying it then?  I mean, this type of information wouldn't have been as accessible over 20 years ago...

eatbugs wrote:
Thomas, you're a perfect example of this: I don't have any Ankou Awaits (yet) but if I did it would really depend on the context if I called it "Christian" or not.  To anyone on this board and anyone who REALLY understands the issue I don't listen to "only Christian" music.  My collection is about 70-80% Christian and 20-30% not-Christian-but-Christian-friendly/marketed as Christian/some Christians in the band/mistaken for Christian.  No, I don't think Ankou Awaits is "Christian music" but you're a Christian and the music is not inappropriate for a Christian so it would fall into the second category.  To some I give the short answer: "yes, it's all Christian."  In those scenarios I wouldn't feel guilty saying that with any Ankou Awaits in the collection.

That's a good point - and I agree for the most part, but how does artist claim fit in?  I mean, certainly it would be a different classification to have an Ankou Awaits CD, knowing I'm a Christian and that's all you hear.  Why wouldn't you lump that in as Christian music?  ...but having an Ankou Awaits CD, knowing I'm a Christian, but I'm waving my arms over here, getting your attention and saying "Hey!  This isn't Christian music!".

...does that make any difference to its classification whatsoever?  Also, there's the factor of the listener's faith.  I mean, Ankou Awaits wouldn't be "Christian" to someone who isn't of the faith.  There's no hint of Christ in the lyrics.  I'm saying its not Christian music.  Its in the secular market.  There's still my Christian beliefs, which them knowing that doesn't really change anything about the music...

Staybrite wrote:I get artists wanting to "transcend labels"....but most of them don't really, and just because your band might fit (at least partially) several different labels, doesn't mean that you are something completely different.

Yeah, but music can't be Christian and not Christian at the same time.  That's a paradox.  I feel like making a "decision tree" style graph regarding this.  LOL

Andreas89 wrote:
As for not liking to be labeled as a christian band, I think that's mainly a US thing. Apparently, there has been a lot of hypocrisy in the christian metal scene over at your side of the Atlantic.

I won't comment on hypocrisy by country.  I think there's certainly more variety in the US on whether a label is embraced or rejected.  I'm totally on board with Orationem being called a Christian project - look at the lyrics.  Its plain to see.  I'm not on board with Ankou Awaits being called Christian - because that's not what I intended this to be.  I mean, if my music is Christian just because I'm a Christian, does that make the work I do at my job Christian too?

Outside of classifying a band Christian or not, there's also genre of music.  I'm aware of a band that denounces the term "black metal", no, they play "majestic metal".  Don't get me started on "unblack" - worst genre descriptor ever.  

I think artist claim does make a difference, as long as they're not being ridiculous.  Stryper saying they're not Christian, I'd say that's ridiculous.  Dudes playing majestic metal?  Nah, you play black metal.  If we're just going to coin terms on the fly here, would a non-screamo hardcore band that sings about milk be called "Creamo"?

LOL

You just answered your own question (LOL) and I agree.  An artist's claim does make a difference as long as they're not being ridiculous. 

Again, there is a huge gray-area where depending on how broadly the genre is defined.  If someone claims to have no Christian music in their collection but has Ankou Awaits, recent Zao, Galactic Cowboys, or Rob Rock-era Impellitteri in their collection I can't call them wrong.  If someone claims to only listen to Christian music but has all of the same I can't call them wrong under the condition on both sides that they recognize where on the continuum it REALLY falls (and no, I don't consider any of those examples "Christian").  Sometimes it's just easier to say "Christian" than explain "Christian friendly."

There used to be some nasty, hateful threads on here about "Is ________ a Christian band?"  I found them useful until they got locked.  As someone who does have a personal/Spirit-based standard I do want to know where in the continuum a band or album falls instead of the political non-answers.  You've been great about explaining Ankou Awaits here and on other threads so I won't have a problem adding it to my collection as money permits.  I think you're right to have a problem with this music being listed on a Christian Black Metal Facebook page but don't have a problem with someone like me sometimes taking the easy way out.  Sometimes it's just easier to say "Christian" than explain "Christian friendly."

To me anyway, if the lyrics portray a salvation/Biblical related theme or message, and the members have some tie to Christ whether professing them on social media, thanking God in the album liner, or being out right signed to "Christian" label

I would say they are a Christian band, at least to me
(There are a few exceptions)


When talking about this The Showdown comes to mind, they released 4 albums on Christian labels, they have one album that every song draws lyrics from the Bible, and they have other moral messages in later songs, all the members have professed Christ at one point or another, considering 3/5ths of the band is in Demon Hunter

Yet they say they are not a Christian band, to me the things listed above make them a Christian band in my mind

ThomasEversole wrote:

Staybrite wrote:I get artists wanting to "transcend labels"....but most of them don't really, and just because your band might fit (at least partially) several different labels, doesn't mean that you are something completely different.

Yeah, but music can't be Christian and not Christian at the same time.  That's a paradox.  I feel like making a "decision tree" style graph regarding this.  LOL

Oh I agree, but now that you have said it out loud (well typed it and posted it on the internet)....you just know that some band is going to try and claim to be both Christian and Satanic at the same time.

I have felt like Klayton makes the claims of it never being a Christian band in the same way that some Christian bands try to avoid the label, and in the same way that I've had anti-Christian bands lie to me and tell me they were a Christian band in hopes of getting airplay on the radio. It is difficult to believe that he joined a Christian label only for opportunity when the self-titled album includes many clear references:

Twisted Reality:

Life with Jesus is endless hope, life without him is a hopeless end

Technological Disguise:

Born from the dust beginnings of man
A seed of disobedience
Stain of the curse we've brought on ourselves
Damnation of the soul
Black roots of sin planted firmly within
The soil of our hearts
One way alone mankind's only hope
Jesus Christ is our salvation

Consequence:

Eventually the winds of judgment will be stirred
A throne of white the book of life referred
See death and hell give up their dead
As the books are being read
A record of each life speaks for itself
Immortality there is a price that must be paid
Indispensable laws that cannot be disobeyed
Circumstantial gravity a weight of great vitality
A warning to us all (be aware)

Nothing Sacred:

The original version ended with a recording of Amazing Grace. The 2016 remaster however removed it entirely.

-----------------

With the new album it draws writing influence from CellDweller, because on his CellDweller albums Klayton started the trend of making his albums tell a story, so all his albums are a continuing sci-fi saga. I can only assume he is doing the same with this one with a focus on man augmenting himself with machine to become less and less human.

The song Outside In from the new album does, to me appear to be a cry out to God:

Father have mercy on your son
And always bring me home again however far I've run
Father grant wisdom for within
So I no longer have to be on the outside looking in!

I'm really not sure at this point what to think about the earlier CoD as the Disengage re-release has the "Uncensored" version of Deadly love, which after the "its easier to hate than love" part at the end he says "You F*ers".

I know Klayton is a Christian, but I feel his musical projects (Even CellDweller) exhibit a talented musician who desires to stay on the path but struggles. Does that make it Christian music? I don't know, but I do know we are all imperfect and all try our best in our walk with God.

I can't find it.  Does anyone have a link to the "exit interview" Klayton did with HM Magazine in 1998?  It seems like he addressed this issue and where he stood at the time.

Immortal were a Christian band and that's all that matters.

These revisionists and slaves to the world are pathetic.

ThomasEversole wrote:Andreas89

As for not liking to be labeled as a christian band, I think that's mainly a US thing. Apparently, there has been a lot of hypocrisy in the christian metal scene over at your side of the Atlantic.

I won't comment on hypocrisy by country.  I think there's certainly more variety in the US on whether a label is embraced or rejected.  I'm totally on board with Orationem being called a Christian project - look at the lyrics.  Its plain to see.  I'm not on board with Ankou Awaits being called Christian - because that's not what I intended this to be.  I mean, if my music is Christian just because I'm a Christian, does that make the work I do at my job Christian too?

Just to be clear, with "hypocrisy" I was referring to the fact that "christian music" has been way bigger business in the US than over here, at least so it seems to me. And too often it happens that things go wrong when it comes to business; apparently the christian music business doesn't has that good a reputation. Which doesn't say everything of course, but when I read multiple accounts of bad conduct, I'd still say that's a strong indicator.
In no way I'm implying any accusation on your address, if that's what you mean.

I do have some beef with the comparison between making music and everyday jobs like plumbing. Since my main object of study is copyright law, it's easy for me to see the distinction. Copyright law protects the work, and all over the globe the nature of a work is considered to be the expression of the author's mind. Music qualifies as a work (too simply put, but understandable, it's "art"); repairing pipelines does not. And since "art" is considered to be originating from a person's mind, I'd say that there's a relevant difference between the questions of whether a musician is a christian or a plumber is a christian.

I do have some beef with the comparison between making music and everyday jobs like plumbing. Since my main object of study is copyright law, it's easy for me to see the distinction. Copyright law protects the work, and all over the globe the nature of a work is considered to be the expression of the author's mind. Music qualifies as a work (too simply put, but understandable, it's "art"); repairing pipelines does not. And since "art" is considered to be originating from a person's mind, I'd say that there's a relevant difference between the questions of whether a musician is a christian or a plumber is a christian.

BFB--BIG FREAKIN' BINGO!

ToB pops in with a funny.