Star Wars church... the farce is strong with this one.

d@v!d wrote:What does one say?...

If this vv is what Todd Friel was referring too, then I think the criticism is probably deserved.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/star-wars-themed-church-service-highlight-parallels-n480171

Garve and colleague Lucas Ludewig plan to highlight Romans 12:21 from the Bible, which states: "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

" Luke Skywalker does not give in to the dark side, the Emperor or Darth Vader, and even puts down his lightsaber in the end "

...hold on.

Didn't watch it all, but still not sure I'm against it.

I was at a ministry conference that this pastor spoke at last year.  I thought he was excellent.

sentient 6 wrote:

d@v!d wrote:What does one say?...

If this vv is what Todd Friel was referring too, then I think the criticism is probably deserved.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/star-wars-themed-church-service-highlight-parallels-n480171

Garve and colleague Lucas Ludewig plan to highlight Romans 12:21 from the Bible, which states: "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

" Luke Skywalker does not give in to the dark side, the Emperor or Darth Vader, and even puts down his lightsaber in the end "

You are doing the same thing Friel is doing, but to a greater degree.  You have taken one quote from a news article and are using that to base your opinion of what this church is doing and deciding they are distorting the Gospel.  Besides, I fail to see how that is a bad message to spread.

I really doubt this is what he was referring to anyway, since it is a more liturgical church in Germany and what he is referring to sounds more like an American church.  Trivia:  the Zionskirche-Berlin (the church in the article) was once pastored by Deitrich Bonhoffer.

messiaen77 wrote:
You are doing the same thing Friel is doing, but to a greater degree.  You have taken one quote from a news article and are using that to base your opinion of what this church is doing and deciding they are distorting the Gospel.  Besides, I fail to see how that is a bad message to spread.

Agreed.

To me, it's ironic that to expose distortion, he ends up succumbing to it.

That's usually how it works. I've noticed that those pastors and leaders who are the quickest to 'point fingers' at other ministries ... are actually guilty of the very thing they are trying to judge. Goes back to Romans 2 about judging others.

Also ... to me ... these ministers who try to 'expose the sin' of other ministries like is often done with Joel Osteen. Well, these ministries ... while trying to point out sin (though in the meantime have no more substantial message of their own to share, so this becomes their entire ministry - writing books even - to disgrace the likes of these successful ministers) ... and the whole time. They are standing there pointing their dirty fingers of condemnation and they themselves have slipped into one of the most poisonous and sickening sins of all.

Self-righteousness.

Jesus hates self-righteousness. Moreso than all the other kinds of sin put together!

But it's ironic ... these 'witch-hunters' ... with no message of their own to tell of God's goodness (because they don't necessarily believe God is good ... could be that He is bad. Better no one make Him mad ... shhhhhh) ... but they have no message of their own ... so they go on pointing fingers of judgement ...

Worse sinners of the bunch. Self-righteous ... as if they KNOW for certain that their little 'doctrinal passafire' is the perfectly right one to suck on!!! And anyone else's doctrine must be wrong ... because after all ... I am ... self-righteous.

Ministries who point fingers to expose the sin of other ministries is not a ministry at all IMO

Aaron C wrote:Ministries who point fingers to expose the sin of other ministries is not a ministry at all IMO

Exactly! But for some reason ... there are those (especially in the Fundamentalist camp, though not exclusively) who tend to gather around and applaud these ministers ... who are saying all the other successful ministries out there are wolves (though they themselves are the actual wolf, taking money for slandering these ministries, while saying these ministries are wrong for taking money??? HUH? What???)

I would think a successful ministry would be one who helps the poor and the homeless and shows Gods love and grace

Do you remember awhile back some minister needed a million dollars for a private plane?  that came to mind reading some of this

Yes, helping the poor is very important! Jesus is HUGE on it!!

RavenWolf wrote:while saying these ministries are wrong for taking money???

the point isn't taking money, the point is false teaching

Yeah, but how are measuring " success " ?

crucifyd wrote:

RavenWolf wrote:while saying these ministries are wrong for taking money???

the point isn't taking money, the point is false teaching

The point isn't false teaching, it's making a "ministry" out of out of context videos and slandering our family in Christ for trying to reach someone in an untraditional way.

...and I agree 100% with this.

Aaron C wrote:Ministries who point fingers to expose the sin of other ministries is not a ministry at all IMO

ThomasEversole wrote:

The point isn't false teaching, it's making a "ministry" out of out of context videos and slandering our family in Christ for trying to reach someone in an untraditional way.

First of all what Todd does is what I would call a bit of satire. When churches are mimicking the same ridiculous stuff in the culture, it really makes my faith look silly. I mean seriously, we can't put down " star wars " ( or whatever entertains the culture ) long enough to go to church and worship and learn about the things of God ? No room for the sacred cause we always need to be " entertained. " We are obsessed with culture and it really shows in many churches.

There is power in the Gospel and in the rightly dividing of Gods Word. If your a solid bible teacher you won't have to resort to a gimmick for people to come into the Kingdom or to instruct Gods people.

The core disagreement though between liberal Christianity and traditional Christian will always be what the Gospel truly is and what authority drives each sides beliefs.

RavenWolf wrote:
Worse sinners of the bunch. Self-righteous ... as if they KNOW for certain that their little 'doctrinal passafire' is the perfectly right one to suck on!!! And anyone else's doctrine must be wrong ... because after all ... I am ... self-righteous.

So, there is no beliefs that you hold firmly too that you believe are essential to Christianity ?

Or is it anything goes ?

This is still going? 

sentient 6 wrote:
So, there is no beliefs that you hold firmly too that you believe are essential to Christianity ?

Or is it anything goes ?

I can safely say he holds firmly to the fact that Christ is Lord and Savior. Like myself, he doesn't hold firmly to religion, doctrine and all the other jargon unrelated to salvation, and doesn't question/judge the beliefs of others.

All the things you're way too eager to start a fight with someone over.

messiaen77 wrote:
You are doing the same thing Friel is doing, but to a greater degree.  You have taken one quote from a news article and are using that to base your opinion of what this church is doing and deciding they are distorting the Gospel.  Besides, I fail to see how that is a bad message to spread.

A general story about " good " vs " evil " may be fine for a the evening movie....but that's not what people need to hear to come to a saving knowledge of God. Sure, I would need to hear the whole sermon...but the MO is there. You can hear a story about good vs evil from the Hindu Vedes.

....you gotta admit that the greatest sin within liberal Christianity is making a judgment....right ?

The liberal knee-jerk is to always claim criticism is done for self righteousness. But some of us actually care about Christianity not looking some big marketing scheme ( and silly ) and believe there is power in Gods word when the Holy Spirit works. Todd will never say that God doesn't ever use means to bring people to His Son. But Christian leaders should have enough wisdom to know what those good " means " are or could be. Motive need to be explored too.

ThomasEversole wrote:

I can safely say he holds firmly to the fact that Christ is Lord and Savior. Like myself, he doesn't hold firmly to religion, doctrine and all the other jargon unrelated to salvation, and doesn't question/judge the beliefs of others.

All the things you're way too eager to start a fight with someone over.

Isn't saying " Christ is Lord and savior " a doctrine ? If you hold to that, then a guess you believe in at least one doctrine. Do you have a doctrine of " salvation " ? You must have a belief of what one needs for this salvation...right ?

sentient 6 wrote:
Sure, I would need to hear the whole sermon...but the MO is there.

In other words, you'd need more information to make a decision, but since it LOOKS the way it does, you've made a decision.

sentient 6 wrote:....you gotta admit that the greatest sin within liberal Christianity is making a judgment....right ?

What!??!!!?

sentient 6 wrote:The liberal knee-jerk is to always claim criticism is done for self righteousness. But some of us actually care about Christianity not looking some big marketing scheme ( and silly ) and believe there is power in Gods word when the Holy Spirit works.

The conservative knee-jerk is to always claim criticism is done for righteousness. But some of us actually care about Christianity not looking like a bunch of corrective and critical fight-starters who forgo peace and love for agenda and cultural prejudice. We all believe there is power in Gods word when the Holy Spirit works.

sentient 6 wrote:
Isn't saying " Christ is Lord and savior " a doctrine ? If you hold to that, then a guess you believe in at least one doctrine. Do you have a doctrine of " salvation " ? You must have a belief of what one needs for this salvation...right ?

Depends on which numbered dictionary definition you want to go with for the term doctrine.
(a) "a belief held and taught", yes.
(b)"a stated principle of (religious) policy", no.

So, I know you publicly flog people who have a different (b) doctrinal beliefs than you, but what are you trying to do here? Snake me out of being a dirty liberal Christian when I too have a "doctrine"? Or did I just see your logic twist as much as your misuse of scripture?

sentient 6 wrote:First of all what Todd does is what I would call a bit of satire. When churches are mimicking the same ridiculous stuff in the culture, it really makes my faith look silly. I mean seriously, we can't put down " star wars " ( or whatever entertains the culture ) long enough to go to church and worship and learn about the things of God ? No room for the sacred cause we always need to be " entertained. " We are obsessed with culture and it really shows in many churches.

There is power in the Gospel and in the rightly dividing of Gods Word. If your a solid bible teacher you won't have to resort to a gimmick for people to come into the Kingdom or to instruct Gods people.

...well said

ThomasEversole wrote:The conservative knee-jerk is to always claim criticism is done for righteousness. But some of us actually care about Christianity not looking like a bunch of corrective and critical fight-starters who forgo peace and love for agenda and cultural prejudice. We all believe there is power in Gods word when the Holy Spirit works.

discernment has a place...the bereans were commended for testing the teachings of the apostle paul himself



Things being out of context has come up several times. My earlier comments about most of the church are based on hearing many in context (ie, the whole sermon, including many by Joel Osteen) sermon reviews by Chris Rosebrough over at http://www.fightingforthefaith.com

Check his show out. As he will tell you, and as is obvious by comments in this thread, the show will rub some the wrong way. However, to really understand what's going on, give it three to four weeks worth of shows and really give him a chance to make a case...

crucifyd wrote:discernment has a place...the bereans were commended for testing the teachings of the apostle paul himself

Are you really comparing the Bereans testing Paul's teaching to criticizing the opinions of fellow Christians anonymously on a forum about metal?

ThomasEversole wrote:Are you really comparing the Bereans testing Paul's teaching to criticizing the opinions of fellow Christians anonymously on a forum about metal?

well no, I was referring to the likes of Friel testing what churches are teaching...

although I don't see a problem with doing what you are implying. anyone who puts anything forward as biblical should be bereanized and tested against scripture.

crucifyd wrote:
anyone who puts anything forward as biblical should be bereanized and tested against scripture.

Should any opinions also be berated bereanized and tested against scripture as well?

There's two reasons to test someone.
1) Make them stronger
2) Because you want to find out where they're wrong

I personally think exercising #2 "religiously" on a recreational themed Christian forum would not be a very good way to make friends...
...plus, its not really any of your business.

sentient 6 wrote:When churches are mimicking the same ridiculous stuff in the culture, it really makes my faith look silly. I mean seriously, we can't put down " star wars " ( or whatever entertains the culture ) long enough to go to church and worship and learn about the things of God ? No room for the sacred cause we always need to be " entertained. " We are obsessed with culture and it really shows in many churches.

Makes your faith "look silly"?  I could see how modern culture would ruin the "looks" of traditional Christianity, but that makes traditional Christian "FASHION".  I think anyone truly focused on God wouldn't care what the world thought their faith LOOKED like.  Only those plagued with vanity need to keep an image.

This is an excellent example of ego.  ...also known as
Edging
God
Out

It just blows my mind that teachings get dragged through the mud as being false, when REALLY its about a conceited aesthetic presentation.  

Sickening.

alldatndensum wrote:
I bet the guy in the video had no problems about sermon series and even Sunday school material being based on the Andy Griffith Show.

I bet it would still be too modern or the suits aren't nice enough.
Maybe not enough robes and funny hats.