Cannabis

I've avoided posting here mostly because I don't really have a well thought out position on this.  I think it is easy to justify what we want to do and just as easy to use the Bible to support it, so I think it is important to be cautious about doing so.  I have no problem with medical marijuana and know several people who have found relief through it.  However, I think it also has the potential to be a slippery slope, particularly if you are someone who has addiction issues.  Then there is the legality issue.  I don't know what the laws are where you live, but make sure you stay on the right side of the law.  I would also suggest finding someone you trust to be accountable to.  I'm convinced that having an accountability partner is the best thing a person can do.  Overall man, I pray for your healing.

I absolutely believe 100% that this is a slippery slope. ...but that doesn't mean I'm going to fall.

I have known of a few instances where people (addicts) were in a situation of chronic pain, and refused ALL potentially intoxicating medications (their intention was complete sobriety) and after X days/weeks/months of intense never stopping pain, they "snap" with a big EFF IT and a binge.

I'm not saying that would always happen to people in pain that DON'T take something intoxicating, but I can certainly vouch for making exceptions because of pain. For years after getting sober, I scratched weed off my list - FOREVER. ...now that I'm in the situation I'm in, having dealt with more pain than I want to deal with, its back on my list as a "lesser evil". (than painkillers and doing the opiate nod and losing functionality)

People get broken bones, glass stuck in them, cancer... and just because someone abused a substance before, doesn't mean its morally any different than someone else who's "normal" taking that same substance in a medicinal/responsible manner.

Regarding being on the right side of the law, if I was "caught" with the cannabis I bought, it would be a misdemeanor. In retrospect, if I was "caught" with the Norco's I (STILL) have in my medicine cabinet that were prescribed to me last year when my back went out, it would be a felony.

Why would I put those in my car, drive around with them, and do something to draw the attention of the police TO get caught? This is MEDICINE and I'm trying to be responsible and sober while taking just enough to get some real relief.

Not "get doped up", drive around, raise hell and get charged...

I know being on a slippery slope does not mean falling is inevitable, my words are being written out of a place of care and concern, not condemnation.  I cannot comprehend the pain that you are in as I've never experienced it myself although I have watched friends and family members suffer through it.  I also know there are risks involved with all treatments.  My wife is currently on two different types of medicine that *may* treat her condition but also *may* cause a rare brain cancer.  It sounds cold to say it, but it all comes down to a cost/benefit analysis--does what you potentially gain from the treatment outweigh the potential risks from it.  That is really a question only you (with your wife) can answer.  Honestly, I don't think there is anything noble or morally superior to go through life in extreme pain, and (off the subject) if pressed on the issue, I would likely support any measure that would allow a person to prioritize quality of life over length of life.  Obviously I don't mean people should kill themselves because they can't have the newest and best phone, an 85" TV, or One Direction tickets, but if a person's "life" comes down to opening their eyes and staring around the room while the medical establishment and pharmaceutical industry keeps their vital signs plugging along, is that really life? 

I know that was off-topic, but I just wanted to explain where I'm coming from.  I hope this works for you AND that God brings healing into your life.

I appreciate the concern. ...and I'm sorry to hear about your wife's condition and the risk she has to take.

Being a recovered alcoholic, I still go to AA meetings and I explained this situation last night at the meeting. (to make sure I wasn't way off base)

The consensus was, they hoped I continue to use it with extreme caution and if it was addressing symptoms and was not getting me intoxicated, its really a non-issue. What's important is how the substance is used and what are its effects, not what the substance is.

I like what you had to say regarding quality of life. My worst "attacks" have me on the toilet each 20 minutes for hours on end in a lot of pain. I think about 4 hours of that and I've about had it.

I never thought two breaths of ANYTHING would turn 20 minutes to 2 hours and cut the pain in half...

...but there it is.

Thought this was interesting ...

http://norml.org/news/2016/01/21/twin-study-marijuana-use-does-not-effect-iq-decline


In today's news from Los Angeles:

Twin Study: Marijuana Use Does Not Effect IQ Decline

Los Angeles, CA: The cumulative use of cannabis by adolescents has no direct effect on intelligence decline, according to longitudinal data published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
Investigators at the University of California, Los Angeles and the University of Minnesota evaluated whether marijuana use was associated with changes in intellectual performance in two longitudinal cohorts of adolescent twins. Participants were assessed for intelligence at ages 9 to 12, before marijuana involvement, and again at ages 17 to 20.
Researchers reported no dose-response relationship between cannabis use and IQ decline. They also found no significant differences in performance among marijuana using subjects when compared to their non-using twins.
Investigators concluded: "In the largest longitudinal examination of marijuana use and IQ change, ... we find little evidence to suggest that adolescent marijuana use has a direct effect on intellectual decline. ... [T]he lack of a dose-response relationship, and an absence of meaningful differences between discordant siblings lead us to conclude that the deficits observed in marijuana users are attributable to confounding factors that influence both substance initiation and IQ rather than a neurotoxic effect of marijuana."
The findings follow the publication of a separate longitudinal study in the Journal of Pharmacology which concluded that cumulative adolescent marijuana use is not associated with lower IQ or poorer educational performance once adjustments are made for potential confounders, specifically cigarette smoking.

There's a documentary on Netflix called "Super High Me" where a comedian goes pot free for 30 days, takes physical/mental/academic tests, then smokes ridiculous amounts of weed daily for 30 days, then takes more physical/mental/academic tests.

He scored the same on everything except physically, he gained 8 pounds.

Obviously, he wasn't high during testing - he had just been getting high daily beforehand.

ThomasEversole wrote:There's a documentary on Netflix called "Super High Me" where a comedian goes pot free for 30 days, takes physical/mental/academic tests, then smokes ridiculous amounts of weed daily for 30 days, then takes more physical/mental/academic tests.

He scored the same on everything except physically, he gained 8 pounds.

Obviously, he wasn't high during testing - he had just been getting high daily beforehand.

That's actually a pretty good documentary! It's basically like the other famous documentary about McDonalds, "Super Size Me". I think he parodied that. But it was very good and quite informative!

I just had an epic conversation with my mother regarding marijuana. EPIC.

In case you guys didn't know, I've always known my mom as a conservative Baptist, in church almost every Sunday, her Bible is ragged from use with all sorts of handwritten notes...
definitely not a ringer for someone open minded to "drug use", and definitely did not approve when I was abusing it before I got sober. We were talking about my chemo starting on Monday and what that will be like.
My mom just blurted out: "Can't you just smoke marijuana instead?"

LOL wut?

She went on to explain that I need to just start smoking marijuana because (her) Uncle Leroy told her that it helps with *insert benefits list* and it really helped Uncle Leroy's dad with cancer years ago. (side note: looks like there IS a family history of cancer on my mom's side)

I hadn't told my mom I've been using cannabis to treat my symptoms. While its a moral grey area IMO, I never wanted to bring it up and rock the boat since I did abuse it when I was drinking back before 2007. I know, It doesn't exactly smell of rigorous honesty to omit that sort of detail to your mom, but I made the decision to not tell her I was using it, because I didn't want her to worry and/or doubt my motive for using it.

So, here's my chance.
I open up to her about using it, how long Ive been using it, how much I use, my motives for using it... everything.
(felt great to unload like that)

She was THRILLED, and then wanted to make sure I had enough (LOL) and if what I was getting was a good price and quality.
I'm so trying not to laugh. Maybe you'd have to know my mom, but I thought this was hilarious.

I know pot is slowly appearing to be a long villainized medical hero, but I never thought my mom would be on board to the point of making sure I get my weedies every morning. LOLOLOL

Not THAT surprised, dude.  My own mom falls in to the same type of "typical Baptist conservative" net.  We did church twice on Sunday's, and on Wednesday nights, they made sure I went to all the youth activities, they taught Sunday school classes, sang in the choir, all that stuff.

She's also suffered from chronic migraines and fibromyalgia for as long as I can remember......and she's told me she's 100% in favor of medical use cannabis.  If Indiana every legalizes that, I have no doubt she'll adopt it as a manner of dealing with the pain issues just to get OFF the crap they prescribe her now.

There may be hope for your mom's fibromyalgia without marijuana.  Check this out, exo.

http://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/High-pressure-oxygen-Israeli-researchers-develop-very-effective-treatment-for-fibromyalgia-406222

alldatndensum wrote:There may be hope for your mom's fibromyalgia without marijuana.  Check this out, exo.

http://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/High-pressure-oxygen-Israeli-researchers-develop-very-effective-treatment-for-fibromyalgia-406222

They use that treatment (high pressure oxygen) to treat cluster headaches. From what I saw on a documentary about it, it's about as effective as rubbing an ice cube on a 3rd degree burn.

exo wrote:She's also suffered from chronic migraines and fibromyalgia for as long as I can remember......and she's told me she's 100% in favor of medical use cannabis.

My mom has also had chronic migraines for over 37 years and also seemed open to medical marijuana because she's TRIED everything else. Some kind of herb in coffee has been the latest thing that works, but its never been an issue with something working - its that after several weeks/months everything usually stops working. The thing that worked the best was this experimental vibrating head band from Belgium, but even that only held on so long...

Yes, one documentary makes one an expert.   I will take my chances with the doctors.

I don't buy in to the whole "marijuana is bad because 'DRUGZ!!!' " type arguments.  

At the end of the day, it's ALL just chemicals, whether lab manufactured or naturally derived, and there's JUST as much of an issue with those lab derived ones being abused or over-used.  

Things like high pressure oxygen or cryotherapies are pretty much just as "witch doctory" as "smoke this plant", TBH.  There's actually MORE scientific info about how well the plant addresses various issues than there is for the oxygen therapies at this point.

People make a waaaaaaaay bigger issue over "oooooh.....but it's POT" than they need to.

That's NOT to say I support full decriminalization for recreational use and whatnot.......just that at the end of the day, a chemical compound is a chemical compound is a chemical compound, never mind that it comes from a plant instead of a lab......

alldatndensum wrote:Yes, one documentary makes one an expert.   I will take my chances with the doctors.

Jeez, you'd think my analogy jabbed you in the face or something from that passive aggressive response
.
Yes, I'll take my chances with doctors as well. In fact, my surgeon recommended marijuana from the initial consultation, and I'd probably look into oxygen therapy if he recommended that as well.

exo wrote:I don't buy in to the whole "marijuana is bad because 'DRUGZ!!!' " type arguments.

True, especially when someone has that view with no first hand experience with it. The prohibition planted a lot of seeds. America has had a few mass stereotypes like "pot is bad". "Sugar is good for you in moderation" is another one that's wrong.

Jeez, you'd think my analogy jabbed you in the face or something from that passive aggressive response

Lighten up.  It is called 'sarcasm', Sheldon.

alldatndensum wrote:

Jeez, you'd think my analogy jabbed you in the face or something from that passive aggressive response

Lighten up.  It is called 'sarcasm', Sheldon.

Don't about paranoia being an affect of the chemical...

Yeah, if it truly helps you with your condition, what more is there to say?

About stigma, I should hope all you hard rockin dudes know how to buck it by now.

Amazing how a talk about illicit drugs can deepen the parent-child relationship, no?


I don't think it's a good idea to use it recreationally. I'm not in favor of it being legalized for such either.

d@v!d wrote:

alldatndensum wrote:

Jeez, you'd think my analogy jabbed you in the face or something from that passive aggressive response

Lighten up.  It is called 'sarcasm', Sheldon.

Don't about paranoia being an affect of the chemical...

It's not paranoia if people really are out to get you.

I'd like to chime in a little bit on this thread. I mean, how could I, a dutchie, keep my mouth shut on this topic?

First of all: it is only now that I read about your condition. The best of blessings to you when it comes to dealing with the situation, words fall short on that subject.

Secondly, I'm a firm opponent of recreational drug use. I don't care how innocent it can be, and I don't care if alcohol makes more victims. I mean, so what if it is relatively "better"? It just means that there's alot of work to be done about people's use of alcohol. I'm taking my responsibility lately (although it has been more than five years since I have been drunk).
There's a fundamental difference between alcohol and drugs. In my opinion, you should never drink so much alcohol that your senses get numb. If that means only one glass per week, that's fine. Recreational drug use however is purely aimed at numbing the senses. In other words: alcohol CAN make you being "under influence", drugs WILL make you being "under influence".

When it comes to medical applications, I'm in no position to disapprove of it however.

Fun fact: almost all of my childhood I lived at a place with a so called "coffee shop" just around the corner. And FYI, in the Netherlands, a coffee shop isn't about coffee...

Andreas89 wrote:
There's a fundamental difference between alcohol and drugs. In my opinion, you should never drink so much alcohol that your senses get numb. If that means only one glass per week, that's fine. Recreational drug use however is purely aimed at numbing the senses. In other words: alcohol CAN make you being "under influence", drugs WILL make you being "under influence".

This is extremely incorrect. For one, from a chemical standpoint, alcohol IS a drug. For two, whether the drug rolls off, drips off or blows off a table, the variable is the person consuming it, not the inanimate substance.

Google the stats. In the US alone, over 17 million people abuse or are dependent on just alcohol. All other illicit drugs TOGETHER (meth, cocaine, cannabis, heroine, etc.) total 23 million. That pretty much makes alcohol the king of intoxicants causing loss of control.

Finally, illicit drugs will NOT necessarily lead to abuse or dependence. Like alcohol, the word is "can" numb. I worked as a drug counselor for over 3 years and had more than a handful of clients who while they abuse heroine or meth, felt crack cocaine was "pointless" or "a waste of time". The point is, they were in active addiction, TRIED to abuse it, but it didn't scratch their itch.

d@v!d wrote:
I don't think it's a good idea to use it recreationally. I'm not in favor of it being legalized for such either.

Big picture, whether cannabis is legalized or not is moot to a lot of people. It's everywhere and easy to get and this day and age, unless you're slinging around massive amounts or doing stupid things while high, you're looking at a slap on the wrist if it's truly personal use.

I honestly think that if it was legal, the biggest difference we'd see is illegitimate transactions (which are accompanied by retaliatory violence) being lower in number.

ThomasEversole wrote:

Andreas89 wrote:
There's a fundamental difference between alcohol and drugs. In my opinion, you should never drink so much alcohol that your senses get numb. If that means only one glass per week, that's fine. Recreational drug use however is purely aimed at numbing the senses. In other words: alcohol CAN make you being "under influence", drugs WILL make you being "under influence".

This is extremely incorrect. For one, from a chemical standpoint, alcohol IS a drug. For two, whether the drug rolls off, drips off or blows off a table, the variable is the person consuming it, not the inanimate substance.

Google the stats. In the US alone, over 17 million people abuse or are dependent on just alcohol. All other illicit drugs TOGETHER (meth, cocaine, cannabis, heroine, etc.) total 23 million. That pretty much makes alcohol the king of intoxicants causing loss of control.

Finally, illicit drugs will NOT necessarily lead to abuse or dependence. Like alcohol, the word is "can" numb. I worked as a drug counselor for over 3 years and had more than a handful of clients who while they abuse heroine or meth, felt crack cocaine was "pointless" or "a waste of time". The point is, they were in active addiction, TRIED to abuse it, but it didn't scratch their itch.

First, take a deep breath. Secondly, try to read everything I posted instead of just focusing on my opinion about recreational drug use   In your counterarguments you mention alot of things that I am already aware of, as you could have read in my post. And quite frankly it feels like you kind of have your judgement ready for someone who says the thing that I say. But please, don't take this the wrong way. Let's just try to listen to each other better

And I don't know if I used the wrong terminology, but with "numbness" I don't mean to make a connection with dependence. It's the effect it has on your state of mind that I consider a leading component. I don't drink alcohol for whatever mental experience, whereas drugs are aimed at making you chill out/go wild.
I can imagine that people think I'm too strict when it comes to not wanting my mind to be clouded, but I consider it extremely important.

Let me repeat what I said though: the discussion shouldn't be about how good/bad drugs are in relation to alcohol. It's about how good/bad drugs are themselves.
And let me repeat this too: there is some serious reconsideration to be done about the use of alcohol. More and more studies show the negative effects it has on your body.

I understand your post a little better. (I didn't have to take a deep breath to do so either. )

Being intoxicated whether its medicine, alcohol, street drugs, an asphyxiation technique, etc. isn't a good thing. Not only could it lead to dependence, but poor decision making, poor health and a huge slew of other consequences.

You're right about alcohol being bad for you. It essentially slowly pickles your brain every time you drink. Heavy drinkers, alcoholics and people with bad luck can be left with a condition called Wernicke-Korsakoff Syndrome (or "wet brain").

This is when alcohol causes a person to act like "the lights are on, but nobody is home" and they will spend the rest of their lives in nursing care.

To make a distinction between intoxicants along the lines of "alcohol" vs "recreational drugs" is poppycock.  Alcohol IS a "recreational drug".  A SIGNIFICANT portion of folks that drink do so to "get a buzz" at minimum, if not full on drunk.  They're seeking out the "mental experience", just the same as any OTHER "recreational drug user".

It's all the same thing when discussing recreational usages.

Similarly, it's ill informed hypocrisy for someone to extol the virtues of a glass of red wine in regards to purported heart health benefits (a "medicinal" use that there is some decent evidence for), and yet be dead set against medicinal usage of cannabis.......

Just sorta dropping off the thoughts in my brain, not really pointing that at anyone in the thread. Just vocalizing some thoughts......