Tim Lambesis ~ Latest News

ThomasEversole wrote:

exo wrote:So deceptive practices in the name of PR is not actually deception?  You're reaching on this one, brother, and you're not Stretch Armstrong.....

Omission of information isn't always deception. Have you told your boss at work the most horrible thing you've ever done? I haven't... and I wouldn't consider it dishonest because I haven't. They don't need to know that.

There's different types of honesty. If volunteering information hurts yourself or others, and keeping said information doesn't directly hurt anyone, then it's a non-issue.

Apples to orange, bro.

In this case, a product was being sold as something it wasn't.  One of the major selling points for the music to a LARGE portion of the fan base was that it purportedly had a Christian basis, Tim KNEW that was the case, and DELIBERATELY capitalized on that. 

 This isn't "not telling tour boss your whole personal history", it's not a case of merely omitting some information, this was DELIBERATELY decieving people for business purposes. THAT is why one is dishonest where the other is not.  That's why people feel duped about it.

I find this thread fascinating......Long time ago, before TL went to jail, I said "I have no dog in this fight" cause I wasn't a fan of his band or his music.....Someone here said that that was wrong, which I have taken under consideration.

Art is SUCH a Personal thing.  We are effected by artists personalities ALL the time, Not just their professions of faith or world life views.

IMO, it's Very Okay to be turned off by the behaviors, choices, actions, etc... of ANY artists.  Conversely, many times we "like" artists and their product because we have some type of connection to them.  It doesn't have to make sense.  In my world life view we were created as relational beings.  What people do and say does effect my response to them.  And, what I do and say effects how people feel about me.

This thread reminds me of the threads that were going on, here, when Michael Vick got out of prison.  Lots of different opinions, which is normal 

I think TL paid a certain price for his crimes.  I said, earlier, that I am praying for his ex wife and kids.

Oh well, I am enjoying the discussion.

exo wrote:
Apples to orange, bro.

In this case, a product was being sold as something it wasn't.  One of the major selling points for the music to a LARGE portion of the fan base was that it purportedly had a Christian basis, Tim KNEW that was the case, and DELIBERATELY capitalized on that. 

 This isn't "not telling tour boss your whole personal history", it's not a case of merely omitting some information, this was DELIBERATELY decieving people for business purposes. THAT is why one is dishonest where the other is not.  That's why people feel duped about it.

I do see what you're saying, chief. The thing is, there's no evidence that he is truly reformed, or isn't... so all we have is speculation. Do we doubt first and put him through the trials of our boundaries before we give him a chance?
...or do we put some good faith in that he has changed, and risk being duped?

For me, the choice between the two is extremely easy. Its good for the soul to trust people's intentions. If they prove to be untrustworthy again, that's their fault for regressing - not our fault for trusting.

If everyone doubted me after I failed to stop drinking all the attempts I tried, I wouldn't be here as I am now.
In fact, I may not even be here at all.

L8T wrote:
IMO, it's Very Okay to be turned off by the behaviors, choices, actions, etc... of ANY artists.

I agree. There are examples I can think of where X action effects my perception of Y, though this example isn't one of them. His ruse and crime wasn't done to piss this Tom Eversole guy off, so I'm not personally butthurt over it. He was screwed up in the head (hard drugs didn't help) and sinners sin. I understand it because I've been there, and have no qualms overlooking something like that, especially since this was YEARS AGO.

Now if this was yesterday, I'd be skeptical too, but requiring him to pay penance before I even think about giving him a chance? Not only would I be a hypocrite because of the parallels to my own story, but these types of reservations only corrode the vessel that contains them.

ThomasEversole wrote:

exo wrote:
Apples to orange, bro.

In this case, a product was being sold as something it wasn't.  One of the major selling points for the music to a LARGE portion of the fan base was that it purportedly had a Christian basis, Tim KNEW that was the case, and DELIBERATELY capitalized on that. 

 This isn't "not telling tour boss your whole personal history", it's not a case of merely omitting some information, this was DELIBERATELY decieving people for business purposes. THAT is why one is dishonest where the other is not.  That's why people feel duped about it.

I do see what you're saying, chief.  The thing is, there's no evidence that he is truly reformed, or isn't... so all we have is speculation.  Do we doubt first and put him through the trials of our boundaries before we give him a chance?
...or do we put some good faith in that he has changed, and risk being duped?

For me, the choice between the two is extremely easy.  Its good for the soul to trust people's intentions.  If they prove to be untrustworthy again, that's their fault for regressing - not our fault for trusting.  

If everyone doubted me after I failed to stop drinking all the attempts I tried, I wouldn't be here as I am now.
In fact, I may not even be here at all.

L8T wrote:
IMO, it's Very Okay to be turned off by the behaviors, choices, actions, etc... of ANY artists.

I agree.  There are examples I can think of where X action effects my perception of Y, though this example isn't one of them.  His ruse and crime wasn't done to piss this Tom Eversole guy off, so I'm not personally butthurt over it.  He was screwed up in the head (hard drugs didn't help) and sinners sin.  I understand it because I've been there, and have no qualms overlooking something like that, especially since this was YEARS AGO.

Now if this was yesterday, I'd be skeptical too, but requiring him to pay penance before I even think about giving him a chance?  Not only would I be a hypocrite because of the parallels to my own story, but these types of reservations only corrode the vessel that contains them.

Great post and a big Amen! to this part "Do we doubt first and put him through the trials of our boundaries before we give him a chance?"

I guess this were it come down for me:  we've all done really stupid things in our lives, things I'm sure we would love to have a chance to go back and not do.  We've all sinned.  We've all misrepresented Christ.  We've all let people down.  Our infractions may differ from Tim's in scale and in scope, but we've all been in the position where we want people to trust us again.  I guess that's what this really seems like to me.  People here want assurances that Tim is changed.  I'm not sure you can truly know that.  You can see the way he acts, you can hear and read the words he says, but in the end, we can never really know the motivations--the heart--of anyone other than ourselves.  I'm not here to say "so we all need to forgive Tim and go buy all his music," but I am here to say that those of us who call ourselves followers of Christ need to forgive him.  Whether or not that means you will buy his music is a totally different matter.  We don't get to continue to hold people accountable for their sins while celebrating that we have been set free from ours.  Besides, Tim didn't hurt any of us.  Oh yeah, I know people feel like they've been tricked and lied to for the sake of selling music, but were you really?  Did you get music you enjoyed?  Did anything about that music change when you found out Tim paid someone to kill his wife?  No, you just changed the narrative of who it was that wrote that music.  Any truth you heard in those lyrics is the same.  Truth doesn't change just because the person who spoke it lied about believing it.  I know I'm different from some of you in that I can separate the art from the artist.  But this is what I think about this whole situation.  You feel free to think differently though.

messiaen77 wrote:I guess this were it come down for me:  we've all done really stupid things in our lives, things I'm sure we would love to have a chance to go back and not do.  We've all sinned.  We've all misrepresented Christ.  We've all let people down.  Our infractions may differ from Tim's in scale and in scope, but we've all been in the position where we want people to trust us again.  I guess that's what this really seems like to me.  People here want assurances that Tim is changed.  I'm not sure you can truly know that.  You can see the way he acts, you can hear and read the words he says, but in the end, we can never really know the motivations--the heart--of anyone other than ourselves.  I'm not here to say "so we all need to forgive Tim and go buy all his music," but I am here to say that those of us who call ourselves followers of Christ need to forgive him.  Whether or not that means you will buy his music is a totally different matter.  We don't get to continue to hold people accountable for their sins while celebrating that we have been set free from ours.  Besides, Tim didn't hurt any of us.  Oh yeah, I know people feel like they've been tricked and lied to for the sake of selling music, but were you really?  Did you get music you enjoyed?  Did anything about that music change when you found out Tim paid someone to kill his wife?  No, you just changed the narrative of who it was that wrote that music.  Any truth you heard in those lyrics is the same.  Truth doesn't change just because the person who spoke it lied about believing it.  I know I'm different from some of you in that I can separate the art from the artist.  But this is what I think about this whole situation.  You feel free to think differently though.

Well said, bro .

Why do I have the feeling that (almost) everyone in this thread is thinking the same, but somehow majorly get their signals crossed? Maybe a difference in emphasis.

who needs As I Lay Dying when you got King Dude?

Andreas89 wrote:Why do I have the feeling that (almost) everyone in this thread is thinking the same, but somehow majorly get their signals crossed? Maybe a difference in emphasis.

I had the same feeling, but I couldn't quite place what exactly it was until I read your comment.

Do not know if anyone saw this yet, but five days ago for the first time since the arrest As I Lay Dying had a post on Facebook

Here is what was posted:

Words cannot begin to express how deeply sorry I am for the hurt that I have caused. There is no defense for what I did, and I look back on the person I became with as much disdain as many of you likely do.
First, I apologize to my former wife and remarkable children for my appalling actions. There’s not a single day that goes by where I don’t wish I could undo the damage I caused, and out of respect for their wishes I will not discuss anything else about them (now or in the future). I also ask anyone reading this to promote healing for them by respecting their privacy and defending them from any negativity or anger which should be directed towards me. I was the sole offender and the only one to blame for everything that happened.
To my family, I apologize for the trauma you faced and may still feel. This is an ongoing sentence many of you serve because of me. I am so sorry to my friends who were betrayed by everything I hid from them and all the hardships I caused people who used to work with me. Band mates, road crew, managers, attorneys, agents, label people, and more all had to suffer through many unexpected changes because of my actions. While they were dealing with the aftermath of my arrest, I responded toward many of them with bitterness that I should have directed toward myself. I know that I can’t undo the animosity I brought their way, but I hope to mend what I can now as time goes on.
To the people who looked up to me as an artist, I let you down in so many ways. I tried to show my best side to the public, while feeding an ugly growing monster behind closed doors. I wrote lyrics about the person I wanted to be rather than the person that I was. I was living a life that lacked empathy and viewed everything through a self-motivated lens.
I cannot say for certain what life looks like going forward as so much is different now and I’m still learning. Music always has and always will be a part of me, and has helped me get through the darkest parts of my journey. However, this apology is not a part of promoting anything. Rumors circulate, and that’s something I’ve learned to accept, but this apology is just that, an apology to everyone around me.
I’ve remained silent to the public since expressing remorse at my sentencing because time seemed like the best way to promote healing. Today marks the first opportunity to freely apologize without any motivation to gain favor from the courts, as I have now completed the entirety of my legal sentence (including the completion of all parole/probation requirements). Let it be clear that no amount of time served can right my wrongs. I do not feel deserving of a second chance and am not asking for anyone’s trust. The way many people feel about me makes sense, and only time will tell if my future actions line up with my remorse, something I pray for every day. In the last five years, the ripple effect of all my actions has extended further than a written statement can address. Thus, I will continue to apologize in both words and actions moving forward.
Thank you for reading,
Tim

Hardcore Christian wrote:Do not know if anyone saw this yet, but five days ago for the first time since the arrest As I Lay Dying had a post on Facebook

Yep, I just seen this on your timeline today. I forgive him of course, actually I already had. But it's gonna take some time for me to figure out what to make of it.

Mysterious Gamer Dude wrote:

Hardcore Christian wrote:Do not know if anyone saw this yet, but five days ago for the first time since the arrest As I Lay Dying had a post on Facebook

Yep, I just seen this on your timeline today. I forgive him of course, actually I already had. But it's gonna take some time for me to figure out what to make of it.

There is still a lot of action that needs to be seen for people to ever trust him again, praying for him daily

Sounds sincere.  His music will no doubt still suck, but I hope for the best for him!

No matter where he is in whatever process, this statement was the right thing to do. Good for him.

strangerhoncho wrote:Sounds sincere.  His music will no doubt still suck, but I hope for the best for him!

Had to laugh out loud when I read that middle section! 

exo wrote:
In this case, a product was being sold as something it wasn't.  One of the major selling points for the music to a LARGE portion of the fan base was that it purportedly had a Christian basis, Tim KNEW that was the case, and DELIBERATELY capitalized on that. 

 This isn't "not telling tour boss your whole personal history", it's not a case of merely omitting some information, this was DELIBERATELY decieving people for business purposes. THAT is why one is dishonest where the other is not.  That's why people feel duped about it.

I'm unfamiliar with how the album was marketed, but did they really advertise it as "Christian metal"?  Did they indicate any faith element in advertisements?  Did they advertise in Christian music magazines? (wait...there aren't any anymore)  I honestly don't know, but I kind of doubt they made Christianity a "major selling point," as I don't recall ever seeing any ads to that effect.  Or interviews saying "We're Christians and you're Christians, so buy our album!"  AILD was never part of a Christian scene, small as it is.  They've always played general market venues and festivals for the most part, from my (admittedly disinterested and inattentive) point of view.

I feel like this is a case of an audience's imagined perception creating the "selling point," not the artist or label.  I don't see any evidence of deliberate deception, just a band member not sharing information about what they were going through.  Sure, they were aware of the perception because of old interviews but just because someone talks about their faith in an interview doesn't make it a "selling point."  Christianity doesn't sell when it comes to metal -- it's the worst strategy ever! -- so it wouldn't make any sense to use it as such.  AILD would be much bigger if they never had discussed any faith element, so if anything the knowledge of their Christianity in the past from interviews was an anti-selling point.  Most of their fans liked them in spite of their faith, not because of it.

strangerhoncho wrote:

exo wrote:
In this case, a product was being sold as something it wasn't.  One of the major selling points for the music to a LARGE portion of the fan base was that it purportedly had a Christian basis, Tim KNEW that was the case, and DELIBERATELY capitalized on that. 

 This isn't "not telling tour boss your whole personal history", it's not a case of merely omitting some information, this was DELIBERATELY decieving people for business purposes. THAT is why one is dishonest where the other is not.  That's why people feel duped about it.

I'm unfamiliar with how the album was marketed, but did they really advertise it as "Christian metal"?  Did they indicate any faith element in advertisements?  Did they advertise in Christian music magazines? (wait...there aren't any anymore)  I honestly don't know, but I kind of doubt they made Christianity a "major selling point," as I don't recall ever seeing any ads to that effect.  Or interviews saying "We're Christians and you're Christians, so buy our album!"  AILD was never part of a Christian scene, small as it is.  They've always played general market venues and festivals for the most part, from my (admittedly disinterested and inattentive) point of view.

I feel like this is a case of an audience's imagined perception creating the "selling point," not the artist or label.  I don't see any evidence of deliberate deception, just a band member not sharing information about what they were going through.  Sure, they were aware of the perception because of old interviews but just because someone talks about their faith in an interview doesn't make it a "selling point."  Christianity doesn't sell when it comes to metal -- it's the worst strategy ever! -- so it wouldn't make any sense to use it as such.  AILD would be much bigger if they never had discussed any faith element, so if anything the knowledge of their Christianity in the past from interviews was an anti-selling point.  Most of their fans liked them in spite of their faith, not because of it.

Agreed, all across the board

I liked his written apology.

The Christian community will never let this guy forget his sin regardless of his repentance or not. They have a way of judging someone out of the kingdom instead of loving them and welcoming them back into it

I think that he sounded very sincere and I hope that if he returns to music that all goes well for him.

With that said, I was never a fan of his music and probably wouldn't be buying anything new of his simply based on the style he has done.

They were touted all over as a christian band as Tim would tell people in interviews they were. He was even on The Full Armor of God Broadcast saying so and I remember reading a FAQ of him saying so. He later admitted the whole band fell away but were too chicken to say it so to say they never played this angle is rewriting their history. 
 
As for moving forward, I appreciate his apology but since he now claims to be an atheist I doubt he cares what the christian market thinks.

Black Rider wrote: 
As for moving forward, I appreciate his apology but since he now claims to be an atheist I doubt he cares what the christian market thinks.

My understanding is that Tim claims to be a Christian again (I hope nobody starts the "can someone lose their salvation?" debate). He did go through a period where he identified as an agnostic/atheist, but I've read and heard that he once again identifies himself as a Christian. Note in his apology last week that he says he prays every day.

Hope so.

Opeth3232 wrote:The Christian community will never let this guy forget his sin regardless of his repentance or not. They have a way of judging someone out of the kingdom instead of loving them and welcoming them back into it

I think people in general will never let him forget, their will be those all over the metal scene that will hate him, and never accept an apology

He's only apologizing so he can restart AILD with new members and wants to be accepted back into the music scene.  I'm sure he'd like some of his Christian fans back.  There was no reason at all for this public "apology", much less on the AILD Facebook page, except as a PR move.  He could've reached out to the ones he hurt privately, and he should have.  Tim proves once again that it's all about him and he's still a narcissist.

I'm not sure it has anything to do with forgiving him.  He attempted to murder his wife, the one he took a vow to love and protect until the end of his days, and only through his incompetence was she spared.  He spent less than 2 years in jail.  He is not even close to having paid his debt to society.

Anyone who gives this man any more money is a sucker and a glutton for punishment.

As purely a music fan, I'm not sure the metal scene needs any more roided-up, no-talent narcissts in it.  Get a real job.