ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC. Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet. Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me. If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

ONLY SCUMBAGS PIRATE AND STEAL MUSIC.  Certainly no true Christian would pirate music from the internet.  Let me get an AMEN if you agree with me.  If you don't "amen" then we know what you are made of.

Amen George. I know Saint had a similar problem when Desperate Night was released digitally before the cd came out. I bought my tracks directly from Rich. The same day I saw the album all over the Internet. I emailed Rich the links and he did his best to get them taken down but I think piracy pretty much killed Desperate Night. That's why I recommend all artist release everything on vinyl only.

Sinners steal music. We're all scumbags. And I'm made of the grace of God even if I don't 'amen' to you. Don't hang that on people, George.

Let me get this straight.............Because you are a sinner "covered by the grace of God" it's somehow fine to take something that isn't yours.  Is that what you are saying?

Well, that escalated quickly.

I used to download music illegally (I never uploaded or shared though) .... Even though I still bought everything new that came out from bands I liked. I only downloaded stuff I knew I would never like enough to buy.

Like that rationalization there?

Yeah.... Didn't think so..

My conscience didn't either.

I gave up doing it and deleted everything I had.

GeorgeReneOchoa wrote:Let me get this straight.............Because you are a sinner "covered by the grace of God" it's somehow fine to take something that isn't yours.  Is that what you are saying?

If I may be so bold as to speak for him:

He did NOT say or seem to imply that stealing was okay.

I believe he meant to say we are ALL "scumbags", but some of us chose the LORD's forgiveness.

Your reaction to folks' stealing your intellectual property is understandable, however.

And a delayed, if qualified, "amen" from this forgiven scumbag (I don't download music immorally)

Follower of Jesus wrote:Sinners steal music. We're all scumbags. And I'm made of the grace of God even if I don't 'amen' to you. Don't hang that on people, George.

True dat 100%

GeorgeReneOchoa wrote:Let me get this straight.............Because you are a sinner "covered by the grace of God" it's somehow fine to take something that isn't yours.  Is that what you are saying?

Where did you get that, from that ????????????????????

Neal Morse Code wrote:Well, that escalated quickly.

Why yes it did

Sadly MOST people who do it don't really care about the artist or anyone else involved in making the music.  They view it as helping the bands gain interest and fans.  I have dealt with several sites putting up illegal downloads for bands on my label and it is impossible to get them to take it down.  Most of them will out right block you if you even try and if they don't you get trashed for trying to make them take it down.  

And to be honest it is mostly the pressing companies that put it up in the first place.  I have seen several bands have their album on illegal downloading sites MONTHS before release and many of those didn't have digital releases at all.  The only people to have had those files to upload were the pressing plants, and I have had this happen to me several times, SO the ONLY way to really stop it is to buy the equipment to press it all yourself, which is so costly it isn't even worth it. I mean over $3000 for the replication/duplication machine and then the blank cd's and the software to create what is needed for the replication then the printer and high quality paper to print the booklet, tray etc.  So you pretty much have to have the pressing companies but you have to find one that WON'T do that to you and there are ONLY  a handful of those.

NoOneIsHere wrote:I used to download music illegally (I never uploaded or shared though) .... Even though I still bought everything new that came out from bands I liked. I only downloaded stuff I knew I would never like enough to buy.

Like that rationalization there?

Yeah.... Didn't think so..

My conscience didn't either.

I gave up doing it and deleted everything I had.

Good man.  Me too, sir. 

I try to buy just originals ones, but some albums from 80 bands are so expensive nowdays.. I have several tapes from 80 band and i feel fine with them.  And  i have some copies of some titles almost imposible to get these days. 

I have some Mp3 files that i bought from Tunes, but i hate when this files not come with pdf lyrics.... 

For example i have the last Mortification Cd that i bought by Rowe Production in Mp3 files, but i am not be able to find the lyrics in any place.. is just bored me.

Does this 'scumbag' label extend to downloading stuff stuff thats out of print and selling for major bucks on Ebay/Amazon?

I don't download in print music, especially new releases.

Like bodachi I'll give you a "qualified Amen."  I don't download illegally.  IPR violations are sin and need to be repented of.  However, when I sin I don't want to be called "no true Christian" and neither should they.

By the way George, I just got The Chosen Few in the mail and listened to it for the first time today and it is awesome!

About OOP stuff, I absolutely get that there is no loss of revenue for the band or label when music is out of print.  But let's say hypothetically you downloaded Recon - Behind Enemy Lines with that logic.  When it is reissued later this year (that's still the plan right?), will you buy it since it is in print?  What about Recon - Live at Cornerstone?  If you had it could you tell George with a clean conscience you got it from a download site?  Don't answer me.  This is HYPOTHETICAL (I have no idea what's in your music collection) and NOT an accusation!  Just a question!  It's between you, God, and the copyright holders.  It's something to think about and something I personally decided I don't want to deal with - I just try to find the OOP stuff at reasonable prices or not get it.

Recon BHE is available at Google Play.  So it's still out there.  Bought it legally.

I'm a Scumbag.
So... no "Amen" here.

Would be interested to hear what's the reason for the tantrum? Personal experiences as an artist?

I don't think it helps to judge this topic in such a generalizing manner. Laws are good but they aren't the perfect guideline in every situation to really judge if something's good or bad.
Like smuggling bibles into countries were it's forbidden to bring such things into. Would you call those people scumbags too because they break the law while they try to spread the word?
So the important question is: what's the intention of those "scumbags"?

SCUMBAGS Type I: Do they want to enjoy music they can't effort? Do they want to listen to stuff that's OOP and is ridiculously overpriced at ebay or amazon? Do they want to listen to an album first to really judge about it's quality before paying 15 bucks?

SCUMBAGS Type II: Do they want to enjoy music but don't want to pay? Would they pay for albums if there wouldn't be illegal downloads available?

I'm downloading TONS of music but I still love to pay for good albums. And I still do. So... some scumbags actually seem to respect the artists and give their hard earned money to them and the labels.

After 20 years of this argument, I'm super sure that we're going to finally all agree this time!

Well, I don't download music ilegally. Not only because I am christian, but also because the system is unsustainable. How do you expect your favorite bands to release new material if you don't buy it?

I would have to agree. I don't download for the following reasons:

1. Your are risking downloading a virus on to your hardware/software
2. It is stealing from the artist  and all who was involved in making the music.
3. I like having the actual CD and loading it on my computer. I'm a collector when it comes to music and other things.
4. Downloads may not have as good sound quality as CD or other legal pay per song/album sources like iTunes.

With that said, if you own a format like a cassette and the CD is out of print or is not available anywhere to pay for the download then I would think it is ok to download that album if you have searched all the sources to find the album.

Tobi Elektrik wrote:I'm a Scumbag.
So... no "Amen" here.

Would be interested to hear what's the reason for the tantrum? Personal experiences as an artist?

I don't think it helps to judge this topic in such a generalizing manner. Laws are good but they aren't the perfect guideline in every situation to really judge if something's good or bad.
Like smuggling bibles into countries were it's forbidden to bring such things into. Would you call those people scumbags too because they break the law while they try to spread the word?
So the important question is: what's the intention of those "scumbags"?

SCUMBAGS Type I: Do they want to enjoy music they can't effort? Do they want to listen to stuff that's OOP and is ridiculously overpriced at ebay or amazon? Do they want to listen to an album first to really judge about it's quality before paying 15 bucks?

SCUMBAGS Type II: Do they want to enjoy music but don't want to pay? Would they pay for albums if there wouldn't be illegal downloads available?

I'm downloading TONS of music but I still love to pay for good albums. And I still do. So... some scumbags actually seem to respect the artists and give their hard earned money to them and the labels.

That analogy doesn't hold water, very doubtful anyone is stealing music to "spread the Word!"

Got the feeling this is another H&M post.

This wasn't a direct analogy. It was just one of a million possible examples of how laws can totally be against your individual conviction regarding what is "good" or "bad".

In this case determining "stealing" just by law can lead to some false conclusions IMO.

pathogenics_cloned_twin83 wrote:Does this 'scumbag' label extend to downloading stuff stuff thats out of print and selling for major bucks on Ebay/Amazon?

I don't download in print music, especially new releases.

Even if it is out of print and sells for major bucks on ebay it is still illegal to download them and therefore wrong.  I am not perfect I used to do this as well but I can honestly say that I no longer do and haven't for MANY years now.  If it is out of print and I can't afford the ebay price then I am not supposed to have it.  Plain and simple there are people who seem to think they have a right to just have everything they want even if they can't afford it but that is simply not the case.  There are MANY HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS of albums I want but I can't afford all of them so I simply have to do without.  I am not a hard case by no means and I have over a thousand albums so really in the grand scope of things I don't NEED any more it is a want and not a need or a right.  People who try to justify their actions by stating that it is out of print and too expensive or I don't have enough money so that is why they do it is just that an EXCUSE TO JUSTIFY THEIR WRONGS.

I can understand George's frustration as I have been on BOTH sides of the issue.

ParaNormaN wrote:Got the feeling this is another H&M post.

No I don't believe that I just think it is a frustrated artist who has had his stuff put up for illegal download.

lhversaw wrote:

pathogenics_cloned_twin83 wrote:Does this 'scumbag' label extend to downloading stuff stuff thats out of print and selling for major bucks on Ebay/Amazon?

Even if it is out of print and sells for major bucks on ebay it is still illegal to download them and therefore wrong. People who try to justify their actions by stating that it is out of print and too expensive or I don't have enough money so that is why they do it is just that an EXCUSE TO JUSTIFY THEIR WRONGS.

So you say it is wrong just because a law says it is wrong?

It the product is for sale and you dl it illegally, it's stealing. I can't actually think of reason to steal because laws aren't the best way to determine stealing. Is there really some fuzziness there?