Re: Believer or Vengeance Rising?

by Raegoul Sat Sep 23, 2023 8:31 am

I am a huge stan of both bands. They are in my top 5 Christian metal bands of all time, together with TQT, The Crucified and Deliverance combining my top 10 Christian metal albums of all time:

Believer: Extraction and Sanity Obscure are top 10 material
Vengeance Rising: The first three are top 10 material
Deliverance: Weapons is top 3 material
Tourniquet: The first three are top 10 material, StB top 1
The Crucified: Both albums are top 10 material

Order subject to change:

1. Tourniquet - Stop The Bleeding
2. The Crucified - s/t
3. Deliverance - Weapons Of Our Warfare
4. Believer - Extraction From Mortality
5. Tourniquet - Psycho Surgery
6. Believer - Sanity Obscure
7. Vengeance Rising - Once Dead
8. Vengeance Rising - Destruction Comes
9. Vengeance Rising - Human Sacrifice
10. Tourniquet - Pathogenic Ocular Dissonance

The only contender to break that phalanx is Living Sacrifice - s/t

Based on this ranking I would have to give Believer the nod, because their first two are top 6. However, VR has 3 in the top 10. It's a tie, really.

by CrimsonWarrior Sat Sep 23, 2023 9:17 am

cailen wrote:I also prefer Tourniquet´s Stop the bleeding a little more BUT I consider first Deliverance albums and Tourniquet more to be Speed Metal,
because their style is influenced by metal bands like Queensryche, Fates Warning, Rush, King Diamond, ...
They have more melody and traditional harmonies (classic metal).

Believer and Vengeance Rising are faster and more furious, the vocals are shouted and kind of barking. That makes them pure thrash for me
because their style is more influenced by punk and crossover (faster and a bit more raw)
The beats are faster, vocals are shouting (gang vocals) and guitars are technically more jazzy, bluesy, freestyle or experimental.

By the way Deliverance tried to combine these two styles on "What a joke" their only real thrash album.

I guess I have never really understood the term "speed metal". I've mostly heard it used to describe power or thrash bands, but is tempo really the only distinguishing characteristic?

Not all early Deliverance songs were fast. No Time, The Call, Slay the Wicked, and If We Faint Not are all more mid-tempo. Maybe both those albums aren't "pure thrash", whatever that sounds like, but saying they fall outside the category of thrash altogether is strange, imo.

Edit: apparently I misread your post. You're saying that thrash is typically faster than speed metal. Idk then.

by Ammocas Sat Sep 23, 2023 9:49 am

Can’t decide, it’s a tie for me.

by TZ75 Sat Sep 23, 2023 10:21 am

Extraction and Psycho Surgery are comparable. Same with Sanity Obscure and Pathogenic Ocular.

Vengeance Rising is hard to compare with another band.

by MagnusPrime Sat Sep 23, 2023 7:45 pm

Raegoul wrote:I am a huge stan of both bands.

Believer or Vengeance Rising? - Page 2 10-23_10

by bodachi Sun Sep 24, 2023 1:57 am

MagnusPrime wrote:
Raegoul wrote:I am a huge stan of both bands.

Was Spider-Man a fan of heavy metal?
(They called him "Web-Head", not metal-head)

by Sevenoneself Sun Sep 24, 2023 9:29 am

I've gotta say, I don't understand the hate for VR's vocals. After having sampled some of your recommendations of "great" shouted/growled/harsh vocals, I don't see any difference between them and Roger. I suppose I could be romanticizing them b/c VR was one of my--if not--first intros to thrash music way back in the mid-90s.

by Pethead Sun Sep 24, 2023 2:29 pm

Honestly, I don’t know how you wouldn’t hear those vocals as grating. They’re like a weird combination of screaming, growling, and shrieking. I put up with them because I like the music and I do think Roger was a good songwriter.

by MagnusPrime Sun Sep 24, 2023 4:36 pm

Pethead wrote:Honestly, I don’t know how you wouldn’t hear those vocals as grating. They’re like a weird combination of screaming, growling, and shrieking. I put up with them because I like the music and I do think Roger was a good songwriter.

I think I've said this before at some point, but to me Roger's vocals always sounded like a mash-up of Cronos (Venom), Paul Baloff (Exodus) and Darkness Descends-era Don Doty (Dark Angel).

As someone here (Raegoul I think) pointed out, there's also a little Mike Muir (Suicidal Tendencies) here & there as well.

Roger's vocals could get pretty goofy at times, but never to the point of ruining the music (well...maybe Space Truckin').

I'm not as into extreme metal as I used to be, but when I was in my early teens, his harsh vocal style helped to open my mind to growling vocals and eventually get more into the death metal scene.

Arglebargle!! Metal 3

by TZ75 Sun Sep 24, 2023 6:24 pm

I like Roger’s vocal approach on Destruction Comes. It was like a weird growl and hardcore shouting thing. The spoken/talking parts were the “Mike Muir” style. Plus his voice would have that occasional funny crack in it. Kinda like a teenager whose voice is changing.

He was the Bobcat Goldthwait of metal!

by Frozen Fire Sun Sep 24, 2023 6:53 pm

I have and will remain generally reserved about my VR thoughts but Roger's vocals aren't a problem for me. I've historically been fine with vocalists others hate (Geddy Lee of Rush, Blitz from Overkill, Mustain, etc). I don't like VR's songwriting.

by Pethead Sun Sep 24, 2023 7:25 pm

None of those guys bother me, either.

by CrimsonWarrior Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:02 am

I actually love Dave Mustaine's voice. It's such a defining characteristic of Megadeth to me.

by crucifyd Mon Sep 25, 2023 1:15 am

just to clarify, I don't dislike Roger's vocals...
just not my first choice and it did take time
to get used to...

by Raegoul Mon Sep 25, 2023 1:47 am

Vengeance without Roger
TQT without Guy

whether you like the vocals or not, they are an integral part of the group‘s sound to the point it is not the same band without them anymore even if all other members stay. This is not true for every band.

by TZ75 Mon Sep 25, 2023 5:31 am

Raegoul wrote:Vengeance without Roger
TQT without Guy

whether you like the vocals or not, they are an integral part of the group‘s sound to the point it is not the same band without them anymore even if all other members stay. This is not true for every band.

Very true!

For example… I really like the Black Sabbath album “Born Again”, but without Ozzy (or even Dio) it just isn’t Sabbath. Ian Gillian’s voice is just too different and closely associated with Deep Purple.

by Dustofyears Wed Sep 27, 2023 11:42 pm

Roger's Vocals rule... They are manic as %$#@! Like a muppet on the muppet show gone done lost its head.

Thrash vocals like Anthrax or overkill or exodus "Don't get it"... nvm each their own. Strangely like Deliverance though!!!

Believer and Vengeance are both giants love em both.

by eatbugs Sat Sep 30, 2023 8:39 pm

My first introductions to Vengeance and Believer were within minutes of each other on the same metal comp (Mulligan's Stew and Wisdom's Call). Of all of the bands I didn't know (Stryper, Deliverance, Bride, etc.) these two were the last two I could get into because of the harsh vocals. I learned to love Vengeance long before I learned to love Believer.

by Sevenoneself Sun Oct 01, 2023 12:36 am

When Pethead started this poll, I honestly thought VR was going to crush Believer. I obviously need to go back and listen to the Believer stuff AGAIN, because alot of us like them at least as much--or more than--VR. I've learned to appreciate them more this past year but I can't say I enjoy their music yet.

by Dustofyears Sun Oct 01, 2023 5:06 am

Sevenoneself wrote:When Pethead started this poll, I honestly thought VR was going to crush Believer. I obviously need to go back and listen to the Believer stuff AGAIN, because alot of us like them at least as much--or more than--VR. I've learned to appreciate them more this past year but I can't say I enjoy their music yet.

Though most here declare anything after Dimensions not worthy, don't overlook Believer's two later efforts. Didn't like them at first but blocked out the parrots and gave them a fair go and they grew on me. they are great in their own right, even if at times the vocals get a little "rage against the Machine" on Transhuman (which is what put me off on the first couple of tracks originally) it's still believer's sound in new form.

Both bands are legendary.

by Follower of Jesus Sun Oct 01, 2023 6:56 am

The first three Believer albums are essential. After that, I lost interest. Not only did their sound change, but they abandoned any pretense towards Christianity in their lyrics.

by Dustofyears Sun Oct 01, 2023 10:16 am

Follower of Jesus wrote:The first three Believer albums are essential. After that, I lost interest. Not only did their sound change, but they abandoned any pretense towards Christianity in their lyrics.

Ahh.. now it makes sense... no Jesus loves me lyrics...penny drops.

by Black Rider Sun Oct 01, 2023 10:56 am

Couldn't resist coming to mock I see.

by Ammocas Sun Oct 01, 2023 11:48 am

Dustofyears wrote:
Follower of Jesus wrote:The first three Believer albums are essential. After that, I lost interest. Not only did their sound change, but they abandoned any pretense towards Christianity in their lyrics.
Ahh.. now it makes sense... no Jesus loves me lyrics...penny drops.

Not sure what you mean Dust….But this I know, Jesus loves you…no matter what.

by Dustofyears Sun Oct 01, 2023 12:32 pm

Ammocas wrote:
Dustofyears wrote:
Follower of Jesus wrote:The first three Believer albums are essential. After that, I lost interest. Not only did their sound change, but they abandoned any pretense towards Christianity in their lyrics.
Ahh.. now it makes sense... no Jesus loves me lyrics...penny drops.
Not sure what you mean Dust….But this I know, Jesus loves you…no matter what.

So the deal is, I hadn't thought about those two Believer albums from the lyrical aspect as to why most might reject them (most being Christians) that being there's no Jesus rocks or loves me lyrics, and that Believer are probably not so much Believers anymore from what I can tell lolz. So the penny finally drops see...ahh...Chrisitian metal heads more than likely "really" flipping those albums the birdie not so much because of the music, but because the lyrics aren't edifying and biblical and the band are now cast from the Kingdom of Christian metal coolness, so to to speak. Hope that clears things up.

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