Will this be the next fight for marriage equality ?

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/mother-and-son-love-story_uk_57076b6be4b00c769e2d9ed7



When will the culture come around and realize that incest is merely what the scientific world says is GSA...Genetic Sexual Attraction ?

What the neighbor and his family do down the way is none of my business (or yours) and whatever the government decides the constitution protects on the issue of marriage is fine with me...

Yeah SA, I probably could have guessed how you would feel about this type of thing. But I guess i'm wondering how far the rest of the culture is willing to go with this type of stuff.

...as far as i'm concerned the worlds pretty insane right now.

There are hardly any anchorpoints in western culture to prevent these people from doing what they want to do. Of course I have an opinion about why this isn't a good idea, but I try not to judge them.

sentient 6 wrote:Yeah SA, I probably could have guessed how you would feel about this type of thing. But I guess i'm wondering how far the rest of the culture is willing to go with this type of stuff.

...as far as i'm concerned the worlds pretty insane right now.

Don't drag true insanity down, sentient 6.  Let's say what it really is despite what some may think of us.  Our world is evil.  Remember what God Himself thought about the depravity of mankind in Gen. 6.

Gen. 6:5 wrote:⁵ And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

I actually agree with you, alldat. But the question how you handle the situation is very important, I don't think that just venting your opinion will do the trick.
The main reason the book of Revelations is important to me is that no matter what kind of weird and evil stuff the world will throw at us, God is in control, which means we don't have to be afraid.

These aren't just empty words for me; I've allowed a friend from university to badmouth christianity and christians right in my face. And even though I don't think his opinions have changed much, I know that my patience with him (which doesn't mean behaving like a doormat of course) hasn't gone unnoticed to him. I could be patient because God doesn't need me to go in the counter attack.

So yes, our world is evil; and also on the subject of sexuality there's alot that makes me incredibly sad (for instance the impending "marriage" between my sister in law and her girlfriend). But I don't think that hiding behind a wall (especially a moral one!) is the answer. In the Old Testament the Israelites in exile got the order to seek prosperity for the nation they were brought to. And even when you think that it's going towards the end (the sooner the better! I finally want to meet my King face to face), you shouldn't withdraw yourself completely from the world. Just do as Martin Luther said; he said something along the lines of "if I knew that the Lord came back tomorrow, I'd still plant a tree today".

Remember what God Himself thought about the depravity of mankind in Gen. 6.

Good point alldat..this shows that man has always been the way they are now...mankind is no more wicked, depraved, evil or crazy now than in the past...The good news is we live under the new covenant and all the judgment was placed on Christ at Calvary...I do not believe that God judges country's anymore...in fact God doesn't judge anyone ever again...All Judgement has been given to his son and his son simply looks to see if he knows you or not... We as believers are one with Christ and we are commanded to unconditionally love our fellow neighbor...not judge them or condemn them (thats religion and God hates religion)...So why not just rest in Christ and love your fellow man and let the world do as they please (God does..its called free will)..after all, its between them and God (not them and you)...

Excellent post, SA. I too believe that God deals with us on an individual basis and no longer as a "nation" under the new covenant. No "nation" is being "judged" by God today.

And regarding the OP, I don't agree with their lifestyle choices but I am not sure this sort of thing needs be legislated. The only time sexual immorality needs legislated is when someone underage (or even an animal) is being abused or someone is having things done to them against their wishes.

So why not just rest in Christ and love your fellow man and let the world do as they please (God does..its called free will)..after all, its between them and God (not them and you)...

So we aren't allowed to exercise our free will and take a stand against what we feel is perversion?  I think you have trying to keep something horribly wrong from becoming legal and judging others confused.  Why is it that every time someone has an OPINION here that believes something is wrong that the "religion card" gets thrown?  Are we not supposed to even discuss things that trouble us about this world?  I don't see any judgment here as no one is calling for their punishment for sinning.  I can fully identify sin and still love the person.  I do it everyday.  I don't get why it is "religion" to comment about this or any other issue unless you are trying to get people riled up.

alldatndensum wrote:

So why not just rest in Christ and love your fellow man and let the world do as they please (God does..its called free will)..after all, its between them and God (not them and you)...

So we aren't allowed to exercise our free will and take a stand against what we feel is perversion?  I think you have trying to keep something horribly wrong from becoming legal and judging others confused.

I'm not sure how any of this is taking a stand.

I was merely voicing my opinion as well and maybe I should have been more specific. The reason I was discussing the legality of the matter is because if it isn't illegal then who cares? Lol. Paul said in 1 Cor. 5:12 that it is not our business to make judgments about the actions of those outside of the body of Christ. I know that you're trying to say it isn't "judging," but I do see it as a form of judging and I guess I just don't see the point in discussing it at all. We all know sexual immorality is shameful.

I'm not trying to stir anything up. I will leave this topic alone. Sorry if I offended anyone.

Great post Deepfriar...

Why is it that every time someone has an OPINION here that believes something is wrong that the "religion card" gets thrown?

you threw the first one when you posted scripture...why do you think what the people in the article did is wrong? Your religious belief..right?

Are we not supposed to even discuss things that trouble us about this world?

I dont see you discussing anything...you threw out a bible verse and then your next post is about giving me crap because you hated what I said and what I believe...If you think I am wrong then why do you care what I said...ignore it and go on..

I don't get why it is "religion" to comment about this or any other issue unless you are trying to get people riled up.

you don't get it because your beliefs dont teach that it is religion but instead teach it is truth..and thats fine...I understand that....
The belief system that me and Deepfriar hold however does call beliefs outside ours "religion".... (thats why their is basically a theological war between teachers of our view and teachers of your view) ..the point is we should all be able to discuss and say what we want and express our views even if its opposite of someone elses view..I merely expressed my view and the view of the theology I believe... so Chris, why not express your view and the views of your church on this and lets discuss...

This isn't anything new.  Oedipus anyone?

Just like anyone here, I think this is pretty gross.
I couldn't imagine getting freaky with my mom, no matter how good she looked or if I met her for the first time as an adult.  Quoting from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, "Its your mom, dude."

Object all you want, but I think all of us have better things to do than take measures / use time and energy to prevent this type of marriage or their relationship. I'd question the motives of anyone trying to take a literal active "stand" considering things like people starving, human trafficking, economic collapse, a global water crisis, millions of people don't know Jesus, etc. are a much bigger fish to fry.

Out of all those horrible things in the world, someone is going to take their stand against what marriage allows?

Really?

ThomasEversole wrote:Out of all those horrible things in the world, someone is going to take their stand against what marriage allows?

Really?

Heh, I like what you say about priorities. But that doesn't mean you should totally ignore the "lesser evils", right?
I mean, I believe the Lord has a lot of very useful things to say about marriage. Some things we understand now (like this situation; inbreeding can have very bad (medical) consequences), others we may not understand yet.

By the way, you shouldn't underestimate the importance of marriage; I understand why western societies consider it more and more a private matter, but doing so is faulty on multiple levels.

It doesn't have to be black and white, friend.
Just because an active stand is not taken doesn't mean its ignored.

I object to this relationship on multiple levels as well, and would not only tell anyone I object to it but even volunteer that information. ...but that's really all that this deserves.

Every minute I spend tackling all the faux pas situations that conflict with scripture (especially emotionally volatile ones like this one) the REAL difference I could be making as a Christian diminishes.

Regarding the importance of issues, I'm looking back to something I experienced as a kid going to church. Something I kind of unearthed and was part of the reason my dad decided our family was going to go to church elsewhere.

I was going to a Christian church (that's the denomination - Christian) at the time, and in Sunday school class the teacher was using scripture regarding baptism being necessary for people to go to heaven. As a Baptist kid, I disagreed in the class in front of everyone, which was a pretty controversial for a junior high age kid to do to an old lady teacher since we were all expected to just gobble up everything she said as absolute truth.

My arguments were
- What about what Jesus said to the thief on the cross next to him?
- So, if someone accepts Jesus as their Lord and savior, but dies in a car wreck on their way to a baptism, they're just screwed?

Their counter arguments were those were "exceptions" because of "God's grace". We didn't get much farther than that because there were a pile of Bible verses to prove each point.

There were pretty heated church meetings about this (my dad, a deacon there, told me about them) and families were divided almost in half. Ones that believed baptism AND accepting Christ as savior was required for salvation. Ones that believe only accepting Christ is the only requirement.

Me as the kid who's now pretty quiet about this couldn't help but notice that everyone arguing (on both sides) has accepted Christ and is also baptized. Definitely seemed to me that the fighting about the issue was infinitely bigger than how important the issue actually was - at least for the ones doing the fighting.

That's why there's heaps of ash all around the CMR forum. People would rather shelve good old fashioned acceptance, peace and love behind broadcasting what's wrong, brow beating people over what's wrong and aligning the thinking of others to their own. ...over something that has very little to do with the salvation of anyone.

I get there are verses stating to smash false teachings and to stand up for truth, but I don't think it was intended to be done up to and beyond the point of fighting and harming others. ....especially fellow Christians. Talk about not being able to see the forest because there's too many trees in the way.

ThomasEversole wrote:It doesn't have to be black and white, friend.
Just because an active stand is not taken doesn't mean its ignored.

I object to this relationship on multiple levels as well, and would not only tell anyone I object to it but even volunteer that information.  ...but that's really all that this deserves.  

Every minute I spend tackling all the faux pas situations that conflict with scripture (especially emotionally volatile ones like this one) the REAL difference I could be making as a Christian diminishes.

Point well taken   But please, don't fall into the trap of thinking that people who do take a stand in these kinds of situations see things black and white.

ThomasEversole wrote:Regarding the importance of issues, I'm looking back to something I experienced as a kid going to church.  Something I kind of unearthed and was part of the reason my dad decided our family was going to go to church elsewhere.

I was going to a Christian church (that's the denomination - Christian) at the time, and in Sunday school class the teacher was using scripture regarding baptism being necessary for people to go to heaven.  As a Baptist kid, I disagreed in the class in front of everyone, which was a pretty controversial for a junior high age kid to do to an old lady teacher since we were all expected to just gobble up everything she said as absolute truth.

My arguments were
- What about what Jesus said to the thief on the cross next to him?  
- So, if someone accepts Jesus as their Lord and savior, but dies in a car wreck on their way to a baptism, they're just screwed?

Their counter arguments were those were "exceptions" because of "God's grace".  We didn't get much farther than that because there were a pile of Bible verses to prove each point.

There were pretty heated church meetings about this (my dad, a deacon there, told me about them) and families were divided almost in half.  Ones that believed baptism AND accepting Christ as savior was required for salvation.  Ones that believe only accepting Christ is the only requirement.

Me as the kid who's now pretty quiet about this couldn't help but notice that everyone arguing (on both sides) has accepted Christ and is also baptized. Definitely seemed to me that the fighting about the issue was infinitely bigger than how important the issue actually was - at least for the ones doing the fighting.

That's why there's heaps of ash all around the CMR forum.  People would rather shelve good old fashioned acceptance, peace and love behind broadcasting what's wrong, brow beating people over what's wrong and aligning the thinking of others to their own.  ...over something that has very little to do with the salvation of anyone.

I get there are verses stating to smash false teachings and to stand up for truth, but I don't think it was intended to be done up to and beyond the point of fighting and harming others.  ....especially fellow Christians.  Talk about not being able to see the forest because there's too many trees in the way.

Yes, and what about Enoch and Elijah?   It's a good thing you stood up. Baptism should not be idolized like that.

But I'm sure that an in-depth discussion can take place without losing focus. Especially in this case; as you say, it's important for a christian to at least try to do something about injustice. We have to represent the Lord, in the sense that He shines through us. In the case of marriage, the couple also should represent the Lord AS A COUPLE. How do you do that? Well, we have the Bible, don't we?

Let me stress that the point I'm trying to make is that the discussion about "more trivial matters" shouldn't be silenced by saying "there's bigger fish to fry". The latter is true, but that doesn't mean the smaller fish shouldn't be fried

As far as I know, back during the days of Paul, there wasn't a push for pastors to perform marriages against their religious conviction.  I just looked it up, it doesn't appear so.  They were done in vastly different ways than now.  So, as far as know, 1 Corinthians 5:12 wouldn't be a proper verse to sight when defending these "marriages."  We may not see it now, but we all know that push is coming sooner or later to force pastors to do marriages against their will.

Of course, it's no secret that I'm against anything that redefines marriage.  I'm reminded of Genesis 9:20-27.  One of the interpretations of that verse is that Ham slept with his mother because people in that culture at that time tried to do their mom's to establish dominance.  His son was then cursed.  So, as we see, there's an opinion on incest and it's negative.

Also, as for Jesus/God no longer judging nations, I would say read the book of Revelation and tell me that America doesn't seem to parallel Babylon.  Tell me that it doesn't look like America's going to fall in a spectacular way in a few years.  And tell me, America had been a prosperous nation for many years, was that because of the blessings of God?  If God can bless, can He not curse also?

Christians who ignore the problems outside the church do it to the detriment of others.  We are supposed to be different.  1 Peter 1:13-25 says we should not be conformed to our former sinful ways because we have been saved, not by the emptiness of silver and gold, but by the precious blood of Jesus Christ.  If we, as Christians, do not conform, then that is good!  But if we do not conform, yet stand idly by while others march on our churches, conforming them to the teachings of man(Isaiah 29:13), then how can we say we are different?  Because we are indifferent to their lifestyles?  And if all that stands, then how can we confidently declare that we will not be like those mentioned in Matthew 7:21-23?  

I feel it's safe to ask "Do I seek to please God or man?"  Or maybe "Does the world love my position and does it align with Christ?"  If it aligns with Christ, it often won't be loved by the world.  We have a few centuries filled with dead Christians as a testament to that.

Andreas89 wrote:
Let me stress that the point I'm trying to make is that the discussion about "more trivial matters" shouldn't be silenced by saying "there's bigger fish to fry". The latter is true, but that doesn't mean the smaller fish shouldn't be fried

I think we agree on all points, but I'll reiterate using the fish fry example. I don't think we should fry the small fish as much as the big ones. You'll likely burn them and it won't taste very good.

The thing is in the states marriage is now a constitutional issue controlled by the government and the supreme court... So even if the USA gets a conservative president (doubtful) nothing would change...When the supreme court ruled on gay marriage they really ruled on all marriage...thats it.. I think our next president will appoint the new justice and that justice will be very liberal minded...So if you feel like you should take a stand then by all means do it but I see no reason to...I dont think the supreme court cares what the public thinks and I don't think it earns any rewards or brownie points with God..

The supporters of gay rights and marriage equality use the argument of diversity and equality to legitimize their wrong opinions. I'm tired of hearing about the issue and people like Ellen talking about it on her show. She sould stick to comedy monologs and talk to guests and not bring up the topic. Some Christians in some cases gave done a lousy job in dealing with the issue and the gay community felt like out casts because of it. When Jesus met the woman at the well he dealt with her sin and said go and sin no more. We have gay and people with sex changes where I work. I work with a gay man on my team and he knows my opinion on homosexuality. I treat him like anybody else at work. From this, I'm reminded of the opening lyric of the Delverance song What a Joke: I'm tired of all this guile, homos saying they are not perverted,  it's an alternative lifestyle". That is exactly my feelings on the issue.

I was merely voicing my opinion as well and maybe I should have been more specific. The reason I was discussing the legality of the matter is because if it isn't illegal then who cares? Lol. Paul said in 1 Cor. 5:12 that it is not our business to make judgments about the actions of those outside of the body of Christ. I know that you're trying to say it isn't "judging," but I do see it as a form of judging and I guess I just don't see the point in discussing it at all. We all know sexual immorality is shameful.

If you want to play the "judging card", then by all means let's level the playing field.  You accusing me of judging someone is judging someone.  So, the very argument makes it where not a single soul can have an opinion and share it even in a peaceable discussion because truthfully we ALL are judging someone. 

Yes, I DO see having a discussion taking a stand.  If you don't discuss ideas, then you just get railroaded over as other people speak up and that becomes the status quo.  However, in our current political and social environment, anything outside of the status quo is labeled as void.